A Squire for the Overlord

[Sylus Kurgen]

This particular subject has been debated here,here, and here

My thoughts on the subject:
1.Overlord only gets 1 Squire.
2.The OL cannot give their Grant to their Squire.
3.A new OL has the option to invite the Talon to be their Squire. The Talon does not gain an additional Fancy for being the OL Squire, it's a prestige thing here.
4. Squire ranked GM (with the additional fancy being a glorified WL) may challenge a renegade Baron. (I'm on the fence with this one and not completely resolved behind the idea)

[Spell]

4. Squire ranked GM (with the additional fancy being a glorified WL) may challenge a renegade Baron. (I'm on the fence with this one and not completely resolved behind the idea)

Only the OL squire being allowed to do this and no other? If so then the idea sounds good.

Could the Talon opt to pass on the talon to second place and take the mantle of OL squire? If the invitation is the same night as the tournament.

[Sylus Kurgen]

4. Squire ranked GM (with the additional fancy being a glorified WL) may challenge a renegade Baron. (I'm on the fence with this one and not completely resolved behind the idea)

Only the OL squire being allowed to do this and no other? If so then the idea sounds good.

Could the Talon opt to pass on the talon to second place and take the mantle of OL squire? If the invitation is the same night as the tournament.

Correct, only the OL's Squire gains this perk.

As to the Talon passing the prize, I want to hear other voices.

[Spell]

4. Squire ranked GM (with the additional fancy being a glorified WL) may challenge a renegade Baron. (I'm on the fence with this one and not completely resolved behind the idea)

Only the OL squire being allowed to do this and no other? If so then the idea sounds good.

Could the Talon opt to pass on the talon to second place and take the mantle of OL squire? If the invitation is the same night as the tournament.

Correct, only the OL's Squire gains this perk.

As to the Talon passing the prize, I want to hear other voices.

Then I got no issues. Seems like a fun perk to the OL's chosen.

[Kalamere]

3.A new OL has the option to invite the Talon to be their Squire. The Talon does not gain an additional Fancy for being the OL Squire, it's a prestige thing here.

I don't understand the restriction.

The Talon can already be a baron's squire (as Addie currently is) and gain both perks. Why would it be different with being the OL's squire?

Sorry, I'm not understanding the purpose of the restriction.

[Sylus Kurgen]

3.A new OL has the option to invite the Talon to be their Squire. The Talon does not gain an additional Fancy for being the OL Squire, it's a prestige thing here.

I don't understand the restriction.

The Talon can already be a baron's squire (as Addie currently is) and gain both perks. Why would it be different with being the OL's squire?

Sorry, I'm not understanding the purpose of the restriction.

For me, the trade-off is potentially being able to challenge a Renegade at GM.

[Kalamere]

Makes sense then, thanks.

Personal taste wise, my preference would be to see the OL's squire work identically to baron squire. Stacking with Talon and without the challenging potential.

[Rakeesh]

I like this too. I think there could be some interesting conflict here. Some thoughts:

- I agree with Kalamere that Squire + Talon stacking should work for OL Squire just like Baronials.

- I actually rather like the "challenge rights at GM" idea. I don't think that it needs to be one or the other. The Overlord's Squire having a slight, objective edge over Baronial Squires makes total sense for me. Then you don't have to worry about the awkward timing with Squire selection pending the results of the Talon tournaments.

- I do think that some form of SOA is worth reconsideration, though. That's sort of a different topic, but when we're talking about increasing the number of ways one can become challenge eligible, I think it's also key to talk about whether or not challenges are as valuable or interesting as they once were, and whether or not SOA or a similar system has anything to do with that.

[Lirssa Sarengrave]

I don't have a lot to add, nor do I have perhaps the historical credentials to have any weight, but I rather like the idea that the OL Squire can challenge a Renegade Baron. It gives a nice level of story, plus it makes sense. You want to have loyals around you, a Baron goes renegade for whatever reason, be nice to throw your Squire at them, or rather have the Squire have the opportunity to take him out. Maybe if the Squire loses he/she can't be squire anymore? That could be taking things too far. But at least there might be more thought to being renegade or being loyal.

OL Squire should have some perks: stacking Talon plus Fancy? Sure!

[Kalamere]

Here's my only issue with the challenge bit.

For eight years we've had baron only squires with G, as the face of DoS administration, steadfastly saying no to an Overlord squire.

Now, I obviously don't agreee with G on a number of fronts and specifically in this regard would like to see an OL squire come into existence. I feel, however, that it is a step too far to go from no squire to super squire. The point of the no (in my rough summation) was to allow the barons an aspect the OL did not have. We're now talking about not only reversing that and giving the OL a squire, but effectively making that squire stand out further than the others.

So, that said, what about a slight compromise?

Clause 2 for the proposed rule is that the OL may not issue the grant to their squire. What if that was changed to say the OL may not give their grant to their squire unless the squire achieves the rank of Grand Master? In all other aspects I feel the OL squire should be identical to baron squires.

[Rakeesh]

Kal's suggestion seems entirely reasonable to me.

[Hope]

The addition of an Overlord Squire sounds like a really cool idea. I don't think a challenge opportunity is the right way to go about making them unique from the others. While the story and IC angles are great the game balance shifts away from Renegade Barons. To me as a player it would feel like one less reason to consider being Renegade. Would there be a compensation for Renegades?

[Kalamere]

To me as a player it would feel like one less reason to consider being Renegade. Would there be a compensation for Renegades?

This is also an excellent point with the checks and balances of ranks and alignment. I think if we were to take it as I stated above though and have the challenge consume the OL grant, then we're already in balance since it is a fair assumption that the OL grant is generally going to be used against a renegade anyway.

[Hope]

I misinterpreted the end of your post, oops! I think that's a good compromise.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Just summarizing the topic so far...

What's Agreed on:
The Overlord getting a single squire like the other Barons.

The Overlord's Squire receives the same perks as its peers ( Station mod stacking with Talon mod)

The Squire can challenge a Renegade Baron only after being ranked Grand Master (Using the cycle Grant)


Still in contention:
The Overlord cannot give their Squire the cycle grant straight out of the gate.

Solution: The Squire has to be ranked Grand Master to be given the grant.
What I'd Add: The Squire can only receive the grant ONCE during the Overlord's tenure.

Miss anything?