Our Current Plans

[Reign]

There's a lot here. I could respond to a lot of it but I don't have the spoons to dive into the muck. So I'll sum my 2 bits up with:

1) I am against leaving 2 baronies vacant for an entire cycle with no plans of removing them entirely from circulation. This negatively impacts the ability to challenge for and win these baronies for the people trying to complete all title holder who are, statistically, most likely to be challenging to begin with. Unlike DoM, which has a 9 week cycle, DoS has a 13 week cycle. Having a title sit for a cycle in DoM would be a month shorter than DoS and therefore would be less impactful than DoS or DoF. Add in there's not one but two titles out of play and that is just a kick in the pants. I don't feel any of the stuff mentioned in the OP would have to be constrained to a start of a cycle when it can simply coincide with whatever event puts the two titles back in circulation.

2) I am for the Baron vs Baron challenges. I do think we need to sort out what happens to the vacated title; if it means artificially shrinking the title pool and if so, for how long, because it against causes the negative impact above. I think some cool play could come from having both. You've seen MMA fighters hold two belts at once and there's all kinds of pomp and pageantry around that, that I think could stir up some interesting play. Especially with the political dynamics that are the lifeblood of DoS. It still accomplishes the shrinking pool concept, especially if you were to allow someone to challenge for more than 2. I can only giggle at how hilarious it would be to have one person holding all the baronies like some sort of sword dueling Thanos. And it accomplishes it without impacting the ability to achievement hunt (and may even help expedite said achievements because you don't have to sit and wait to lose a title before getting the next one you need).

3) Long of the short, if you (DoS Staff) are intent on shrinking the title pool, do it or don't. Don't keep the challenging populace in limbo with stuff like this if it means removing titles from being acquired and impacting the ability to gather achievements. Because let's be real, for many of us who have been dueling for ages, achievements are one of the rare things we have left to motivate us.

Make that 3 bits.

Signed,
Reign, Claire, Lilith et al.
2 time Triple Crown, 5 time Overlord, 13 time Baron, 6 time ART/WLT winner, 4 time Talon winner, holder of 4,159 cumulative days of Baronial reign (whichismoretimethanI'veevenbeenduelingsoIhopelistingallthisshitoutmeanssomethingbecauseI'mnotjusttalkingoutofmyass)

[Nayun]

If it's achievement hunting could adding an achievement for the playtest period help? One that could be either kept if the ruleset is put into place or retired if not while at the same time making it a reward for those who helped in the playtest. Or an icon that could turn into an achievement in the future.

Something like..

Conquistador
Defeat another Baron in a <Insert official challenge title name> challenge.

[Reign]

Random thought unrelated to the Baron vs Baron thing but related to title numbers. If reducing title numbers is still a thought, it would be a really prime time to rebrand the two vacant rings into one, a la the Barony of South Gate. Retire one numbered ring (probably 3rd rather than 1st) and make it one combined district. This could still be done in conjunction with the Baron v Baron play test while still shrinking the pool semi-permanently for the time being. See how challenge volume is, see if going back to 7 works, or if we need to shrink further to 6. Yada yada yada, so on and so forth.

Just a random thought.

[King]

Retire one numbered ring (probably 3rd rather than 1st) and make it one combined district.

No, no. You see, on the map? Dockside makes more sense. Old Temple is bunched up on the right with Dragon's Gate and Old Market.

Little old Dockside? It's all the way on the other side of the map.

Dockside should totally be the one kept if any reduction were to happen. This isn't because I still need Old Temple and Cadentia for All Title Holder in DoS. Nosir.

[PrlUnicorn]

Regarding Head Coordinator achievements, not every head coordinator has felt comfortable with one and doesn't wish for the spotlight to be on them so to speak. The Coven Killer allows for coordinators to share that spotlight if it otherwise makes one feel uneasy. In addition, achievement creation also requires the assistance of our Black Wizard with being uploaded to the website, approval from the Head Coordinators, etc. IE, there's a little more to it than simply "Why hasn't this been done for two years?" If someone doesn't want an achievement created, we aren't looking to force it upon them.

Mind you, I wasn't saying anyone was implying these things had been forgotten, but simply explaining a bit of background that not everyone may instantly see or be readily aware of.

You made several fair points. Nothing negative was meant by my observations. Given your thoughts on people not wishing to be in the spotlight, though, leaving the achievement for Conner long up past his time as DoS Coordinator might, unintentionally, have placed that player and character in the spotlight longer than they wished to be. That's not for me to say, one way or the other.

I went back through the list of DoS Coordinators since the Achievements were added and learned that G'nort (He had three!), Norah, Na-rae, and Conner each had an achievement with their name on it. I put the lack of Rayvinn having one down to her having only a couple of months at the helm. For whatever reason, Sylus didn't have one either.

While I believe it was quite unintentional on your part, your comment on not wanting to force an achievement upon someone that doesn't want one was a reminder of why my own participation in DoS slacked off for some time. I cannot help but wonder if others are in the same shoes and that's why they stopped taking part or slacked off. As I said in my initial post,

Since the problem has been determined to be lack of activity, maybe the root causes of that lack of activity should be addressed. Let's be honest here, some of those reasons might not be appropriate for the public boards.

Conquistador
Defeat another Baron in a <Insert official challenge title name> challenge.

If that name happens, I expect Sal to get it first.

[Reign]

While I believe it was quite unintentional on your part, your comment on not wanting to force an achievement upon someone that doesn't want one was a reminder of why my own participation in DoS slacked off for some time. I cannot help but wonder if others are in the same shoes and that's why they stopped taking part or slacked off. As I said in my initial post,

Since the problem has been determined to be lack of activity, maybe the root causes of that lack of activity should be addressed. Let's be honest here, some of those reasons might not be appropriate for the public boards.

Could you elaborate a little more on this? I'm not sure I'm connecting the dots on it. While I definitely believe people that have accomplished most things they want then turn to hunting achievements and may trickle off participation when they can't land one or don't have one they want to aim for, this makes it sound like we're implying because someone's discomfort around having an achievement that targets them (so they didn't ask to have one) has equated to you or others not wanting to duel in DoS as much because of it. And I'm really hoping my interpretation of that is incorrect. Because that makes it seem like we're placing priority on participation over a volunteer's comfort level and that isn't very cool.

As for the second quote that you reiterated, I don't think it's helpful in the current conversation to keep bringing it up. If we want to start that convo, it can be started (but not in this thread). Otherwise, just implying it's a thing in the background of this conversation isn't really doing much to further it in any direction.

That said, I wholly encourage achievement hunters. There's a sh*t ton of achievements to be had and very few of them require a specific singular person for you (general you) to accomplish it.

[Royal]

I'd like to point out that Alasdair is the reason why the new achievements for DoS were put out. I went to him with a list of achievements from the old site that were never implemented and he helped choose the ones best fit to introduce into DoS.

As for Crush Conner, that was my bad. I was running achievements at the time (and still do for the moment) and when I looked through them for an update I saw and removed it. I had even asked Alasdair if they wanted one of their own but was told that they'd rather not.

It needs to be stressed that things fall through the cracks. Our volunteers might have their minds on other things when it comes to running the sports and at times achievements are less prioritized, especially if you're not the one updating them.

Also, let's be real, G'norts achievements weren't retired until Thu Feb 28, 2019. That's well into my own running of DoS and it was Kalamere who ran the achievements then and decided to retire it. It wasn't on my mind at all until I created my own achievement for Na-rae, which was created 1 year after I took over from Sylus. G hadn't been coord for quite some time then.

I don't want to derail the thread any further so I'm leaving it at that.

[Partly Cloudy]

I don’t think this suggestion was intended to be negative, “encouraging DoS staff to be more present and active themselves”, but I do want to give a gentle reminder that people are very busy and may not be able to come around as often as they wish to. Or their allotted free time is spent working on background things or maybe even IFL (team dueling activities). Or like in the case of Ebon, they’re heading up another team and present for weekly hosting and such. It is a very valid suggestion, but I think time constraints is playing a large factor here.

Yeah, I didn’t mean that in a negative sense, and I’m sorry if I offended anyone with this suggestion or my phrasing of it. To clarify my original meaning: when I mentioned added activity, I was thinking of something like once a month or every six weeks, or even just once or twice per cycle. The more the merrier, of course, if someone can swing it, but not expecting it.

I realize that everyone on Staff is a volunteer, and we’re all busy adults with lives that take us away from the hobby that draws us all together. I also realize that having the responsibility of being on staff also eats into one’s play time, that some of us wear multiple hats, and that often the spoons just aren’t there. Much of this bites me fairly regularly, too. So, I’m sorry if I came across as not sympathetic to what other Staff members are dealing with.

Also, I did not mean to make anyone uncomfortable with the mention of the Crush Conner achievement and subsequent question of whether one was in the works for Alasdair. I was unaware that this might be a sore spot and am sorry for any discomfort or offense I caused. I was only thinking about how much fun it can be to try for an achievement and how that might motivate some to get out a bit more.

I do have one suggestion. The ability for Barons to challenge for other Baronies having a special name. Maybe something like “Right of Conquest”?

If it’s achievement hunting could adding an achievement for the playtest period help? One that could be either kept if the ruleset is put into place or retired if not while at the same time making it a reward for those who helped in the playtest. Or an icon that could turn into an achievement in the future.

Something like..

Conquistador
Defeat another Baron in a <Insert official challenge title name> challenge.

I love both of these ideas and think they fit well with the spirit and existing mechanics of DoS.

[Delahada]

Cadentia has never been a part of the city. And while it's a nice addition to play, the old last in, first out could be noted here. However, nuking any baronies right now diminishes the long time effort of the one person that worked his ass of to get all eight titles. Frankly, it bothered me to see G'nort's name removed as an all title holder on the histories when seven was all that was available to him at the time.

Bolded emphasis mine. I only came here to quote the above and agree with it wholeheartedly. It bothered me, too, to see G'nort's name disappear from the list. He and Aya, in addition to Anubis, both have the Gatekeeper achievement for holding all active Baronies in their dueling careers. I think I'd rather like to see the DoS Histories reflect that than "held all 8 baronies." Especially with this talk of reducing them (which I'm still not in favor of).

Then a whole lot of other things were said. Claire/Reign's post had me nodding along to everything, so I'll defer to her again. She always has the best words, imo. But I also like this:

Conquistador
Defeat another Baron in a <Insert official challenge title name> challenge.

And you bet I'm going to try to be the first, Collie.

[Royal]

This thread seems to be less about the playtest and more about bringing up issues held about DoS.

I was the one who introduced Cadentia. By introducing the title it meant that the criteria went from 7 Baronies to 8. This did not mean G'nort would lose his achievement, he still gained all the titles at that current time and it is commendable. If you look on the achievement page he is still listed there. If anyone is to blame for G's loss of "status" on the Barons Records, it's me. The sins of the past coordinator should not be put onto the shoulders of the current.

I've told multiple people this before about the Keeper stats on the website. This is not something that Max, I, or Karma run. It's something Kalamere did as a side project. It wasn't asked for, it was something he presented and we thought it was cool. This is the same as the Duel of Swords and Duel of Fists stats and the coordinators who run those sports. This isn't something a sports coordinator can go into a staff area of the site and fix, it's something the site manager has to update.

Alasdair and DoS is doing their best and frankly it's disappointing seeing them, once again, not being given a simple chance.

[Delahada]

This thread seems to be less about the playtest and more about bringing up issues held about DoS.

Apologies for derailing the topic of the thread. I did not realize the playtest was the only subject. It seemed to me there were multiple topics to cover and Alasdair asked for feedback, which was and continuously is being provided.

I also apologize for inadvertently calling you out and making my suggestion seem like pointing out a mistake. I had no idea that change was yours. Who made the change is not important. I was merely offering a suggestion for a new change that I think would reflect those the DoS team wants to make now and still respect the history of the sport.

[PrlUnicorn]

Could you elaborate a little more on this? I'm not sure I'm connecting the dots on it. While I definitely believe people that have accomplished most things they want then turn to hunting achievements and may trickle off participation when they can't land one or don't have one they want to aim for, this makes it sound like we're implying because someone's discomfort around having an achievement that targets them (so they didn't ask to have one) has equated to you or others not wanting to duel in DoS as much because of it. And I'm really hoping my interpretation of that is incorrect. Because that makes it seem like we're placing priority on participation over a volunteer's comfort level and that isn't very cool.

What I'm actually trying to say is that Max's commentary about the volunteers not wanting to be in the spotlight was a reminder of how I didn't appreciate it when someone made me the focus of their attention for an extended period of time and went beyond the expressed limits, perhaps too gently/subtly, of my patience with their actions. This was, in part, because I had a character that was a title holder. The details don't belong here, but as a friend of mine likes to say, "I grok" what Max was saying. We good now?

Getting back on track. I've been trying to figure out how to put this since I prefer to deal in facts and not feelings when discussing these subjects. Think of the baronial titles like 8 toys in a communal toy chest that can each only be played with by one child at a time, but there are rules on how the toys can be claimed by other kids that want to use them. Some kids might be biding their time until they are ready to take their chance. Two kids, for whatever reasons, set aside the toys they were playing with. Instead of putting them back in the box for others to play with as was the norm, the teacher sets the abandoned toys aside. The teacher tells the kids that since fewer of them are playing with those toys and/or taking part in other offered activities that they are considering taking them out of circulation. Some kids in the class get angry because it wasn't a matter of not wanting to play with the toys, it was a matter of having been taught to take turns and waiting for an opportunity. The teacher doesn't seem to understand the ire and frustration of the students because some feel like they are being forever robbed of a chance to play with one of those toys. In line with what Max said about some things not being as simple as it's been two years, sometimes, it's not as simple as just challenge if you want that title.

That said, I don't think removal of the titles is the answer if the primary goal is to increase participation which is how the first post came off to me. It feels more like sticking a band aid on a wound without other care being given. Just for note, I like the Thanos analogy!

This thread seems to be less about the playtest and more about bringing up issues held about DoS.

Alasdair and DoS is doing their best and frankly it's disappointing seeing them, once again, not being given a simple chance.

I cut this down to what I want to address and not derail the thread more. However, I do want to thank you for taking the time to clarify about Cadentia, as well as the achievements and stats pages. I honestly wasn't aware that the stats pages was only tended to by Kal. I had made the possibly incorrect assumption that it was somewhat automated at this point to keep the stats current. I have questions that I'll PM/DM you about at a later time.

It drifted into things other than the playtest because Alasdair addressed more things in his original post. It might have been prudent to only address the playtest and baronies for now. The subject of changing the status of Talon, etc. stuck in between things wouldn't have been there to ruffle feathers and caused dissension. Sometimes, we have to chose a single battle at a time as the sidetracks can become overwhelming.

That I saw, those posting are in favor of the playtest. Given that, it's a bit unfair to say the DoS team isn't being given a chance.

[Reign]

Could you elaborate a little more on this? I'm not sure I'm connecting the dots on it. While I definitely believe people that have accomplished most things they want then turn to hunting achievements and may trickle off participation when they can't land one or don't have one they want to aim for, this makes it sound like we're implying because someone's discomfort around having an achievement that targets them (so they didn't ask to have one) has equated to you or others not wanting to duel in DoS as much because of it. And I'm really hoping my interpretation of that is incorrect. Because that makes it seem like we're placing priority on participation over a volunteer's comfort level and that isn't very cool.

What I'm actually trying to say is that Max's commentary about the volunteers not wanting to be in the spotlight was a reminder of how I didn't appreciate it when someone made me the focus of their attention for an extended period of time and went beyond the expressed limits, perhaps too gently/subtly, of my patience with their actions. This was, in part, because I had a character that was a title holder. The details don't belong here, but as a friend of mine likes to say, "I grok" what Max was saying. We good now?

Getting back on track. I've been trying to figure out how to put this since I prefer to deal in facts and not feelings when discussing these subjects. Think of the baronial titles like 8 toys in a communal toy chest that can each only be played with by one child at a time, but there are rules on how the toys can be claimed by other kids that want to use them. Some kids might be biding their time until they are ready to take their chance. Two kids, for whatever reasons, set aside the toys they were playing with. Instead of putting them back in the box for others to play with as was the norm, the teacher sets the abandoned toys aside. The teacher tells the kids that since fewer of them are playing with those toys and/or taking part in other offered activities that they are considering taking them out of circulation. Some kids in the class get angry because it wasn't a matter of not wanting to play with the toys, it was a matter of having been taught to take turns and waiting for an opportunity. The teacher doesn't seem to understand the ire and frustration of the students because some feel like they are being forever robbed of a chance to play with one of those toys. In line with what Max said about some things not being as simple as it's been two years, sometimes, it's not as simple as just challenge if you want that title.

That said, I don't think removal of the titles is the answer if the primary goal is to increase participation which is how the first post came off to me. It feels more like sticking a band aid on a wound without other care being given. Just for note, I like the Thanos analogy!

I'm super glad I asked then. Thanks for clearing that up!

[JewellRavenlock]

I'd like to see a reduction in titles.

It's supply/demand. The supply right now seriously outweighs the demand, which results in fewer challenges. Competition is the name of the game here. There's no competition when there's enough titles for each active player to have at least one.

[Jaycy Ashleana]

+1 what Jewell said.

I'd like to see a reduction in titles.

It's supply/demand. The supply right now seriously outweighs the demand, which results in fewer challenges. Competition is the name of the game here. There's no competition when there's enough titles for each active player to have at least one.