Rules Proposal: Keeperships

[Lem DeAngelo]

Looking between your response and Mur's, you both list RP as your last reason for sticking around. The matrix and dueling being the first or second respectively. Along with that you both have mentioned this discussion is to see what changes would increase dueling on a daily/weekly basis. I really don't think throwing free wins at your dueling base on a regular basis really encourages roleplay or dueling for fun.

Free wins are not in the original post from Raz. Will we possibly hold another Twin Win night or ART with wins gained counting towards the standings? Probably. Will there be 6 per year like the old ART system that has given out wins for the last 5 years? No. Next up on schedule is probably a Megacast in October.

What it COULD lead to is a saturated field of mages. That's how DoM was when I joined. Nothing *but* mages. I learned the matrix dueling Topaz, Wil, Esper, Vanion, Farek, Vinny, and Face. I was also stuck at Sorcerer for almost 2 years, but that was more related to hitting the Rank Wall. It was that field of duelists and characters that taught me, if you want to get good at a sport, you duel up. You duel everyone above your rank. If you want to get rank? Stick with dueling others on the same tier as yourself.

I haven't seen a saturated time period, so this must be before 2007? Sometimes the complaint is that there aren't enough mages. Sometimes the complaint is that it's saturated with mages. There's not much I can say about people making rank. It will happen a lot more with DoM4.

What makes an Enchanter/Sorcerer less challenge worthy than a Mage?

IC - Their rank. Their experience. Dueling a legend like Wulfson rather than challenging a brand new character.
OOC - Knowing I'm dueling someone like Vinny who is an expert with the matrix. I also had no desire to challenge a lower rank under old DoM so that I could duel without the adv matrix. The basic 8 matrix was agonizingly slow. I enjoy the adv matrix, but not the basic. Not even the basic 8 plus MS and GF. Still too slow for my interests.

Challenging or defending while under a restriction makes dueling interesting. From a RP stand point I loved the fact that Artemus holding the Tower of Earth for nearly 2 years as a Sorcerer stuck in the craw of Mage characters like Vanion. Mages as Keeper Only has been part of DoM as long as I can remember, but watching Enchanters and Sorcerers defend Towers from Mages is what I have always loved about this sport. It's one of the things that keeps me around. Certainly anyone could come in, make Enchanter, wait 2 weeks then challenge. However, challenging for a Tower is the easy part. Winning the challenge, then KEEPING the Tower is the real test of any duelist. Defending your station.

I don't want to keep trading opinions on this as I would like to hear from others, but I am curious as to why Art has only challenged once in the last 4 years? What keeps the player and character from being interested?

[Harris]

So the trade here is giving people more do to once they hit 15 WoL, even though they'd have the exact same thing to do, challenge for Keeper? I don't understand the logic.

I think I've given my opinion a few times, but for me I don't challenge because I don't care to challenge a lower ranked opponent and I don't care for EF either. The tower offers nothing of interest for me. An extra foci and a chance to compete against a fellow mage? Now that is something I would be interested in. I also think that attracting new characters is just as important as retaining the old ones. To retain me as a player rather than primarily a caller, I'd like to have more of a challenge.I'd like to go for All Title Holder at some point, but I want it to be an epic match when I do challenge. Ultimately, I'm only 1 opinion though.

The bolded section is mine. Look at the Keepers now. There are two Mages, a Sorceror, and an Apprentice. If Joe Mage is of the same opinion as you are Lem and wants to test his mettle by winning a title against another Mage, he has two options. Half the Keeper titles are held by Mages. And again, if he's placing dueling before RP, it shouldn't matter which elemental tower he challenges for. That's why I don't understand the logic behind giving Mages something to do at 15 WoL, because they already have it. There are Mage Keepers to challenge. There usually is always at least one if not more.

I'm curious, why has Harris never challenged? I think the only challenge I saw for Harris was for Archmage when the AM fell below 15 WoL? Isn't Harris more of the type to look for a big challenge? Would Harris want to challenge a Keeper who has negative WoL, or a Keeper who is the only other active triple crown winner?

DoM has always been my third sport. I've never felt I could generate the same type of interest for a DoM challenge that I could for DoS or DoF. Dueling a challenge in an empty room usually doesn't appeal to me unless I have some other motive for issuing. All the Keeper titles I've won have come via tournament, because tournaments are great and usually pretty fun nights. The bolded portion isn't how I look at challenges. You've already stated you're a dueler first and that's a question a dueler would ask. For me, I take roleplay into consideration usually before I challenge. The Keeper titles aren't interchangeable to me. The character holding it and the element it falls under both influence who I'd potentially challenge, not just their rank. I don't look at rank first and then everything else second.

[Artemus Kurgen]

What it COULD lead to is a saturated field of mages. That's how DoM was when I joined. Nothing *but* mages. I learned the matrix dueling Topaz, Wil, Esper, Vanion, Farek, Vinny, and Face. I was also stuck at Sorcerer for almost 2 years, but that was more related to hitting the Rank Wall. It was that field of duelists and characters that taught me, if you want to get good at a sport, you duel up. You duel everyone above your rank. If you want to get rank? Stick with dueling others on the same tier as yourself.

I haven't seen a saturated time period, so this must be before 2007? Sometimes the complaint is that there aren't enough mages. Sometimes the complaint is that it's saturated with mages. There's not much I can say about people making rank. It will happen a lot more with DoM4.

I started dueling in 04/05 and we had that saturation clear up to 09. A truly new dueler, I user dueler for the casual player as duelists stick around to make rank, who comes in to check things out is more willing to duel someone low rank than higher up. When there's nothing but mages, new people are less likely to duel.

What makes an Enchanter/Sorcerer less challenge worthy than a Mage?

IC - Their rank. Their experience. Dueling a legend like Wulfson rather than challenging a brand new character.
OOC - Knowing I'm dueling someone like Vinny who is an expert with the matrix. I also had no desire to challenge a lower rank under old DoM so that I could duel without the adv matrix. The basic 8 matrix was agonizingly slow. I enjoy the adv matrix, but not the basic. Not even the basic 8 plus MS and GF. Still too slow for my interests.

And how would you know that person isn't an alternate?

Rank is merely the ability to work the system and gain wins, not a true testament of skill.

My first Challenge, as an Enchanter

I was a Sorcerer

...
again, still a Sorcerer and once more vs a Mage.

Tower of Water Histories. Wyheree defended the Tower of Water more than any other duelist, and when these took place she was barely an enchanter, but look at who she beat.

I'm MORE likely to duel the lower ranks, not because I think they are easy prey but they will use combinations I hardly see from experienced duelists. New players keep me on my toes. Experienced duelists are easier to predict. I still duel in magic, and I still use more Basic 8 than advanced because the Basic 8 is all a person really needs. The Advanced 4 and mage powers like NR and IM are niched. I've never had an issue with duel length.

Challenging or defending while under a restriction makes dueling interesting. From a RP stand point I loved the fact that Artemus holding the Tower of Earth for nearly 2 years as a Sorcerer stuck in the craw of Mage characters like Vanion. Mages as Keeper Only has been part of DoM as long as I can remember, but watching Enchanters and Sorcerers defend Towers from Mages is what I have always loved about this sport. It's one of the things that keeps me around. Certainly anyone could come in, make Enchanter, wait 2 weeks then challenge. However, challenging for a Tower is the easy part. Winning the challenge, then KEEPING the Tower is the real test of any duelist. Defending your station.

I don't want to keep trading opinions on this as I would like to hear from others, but I am curious as to why Art has only challenged once in the last 4 years? What keeps the player and character from being interested?

So as a relative veteran of the sport my opinion is less valid than others? That's what you just blatantly said.

As to why he hasn't challenged? Real easy, the character has no interest in the towers anymore. He's held one. The only thing left in DoM of interest to him is Archmage. His near 2 years as Keeper of Earth were spent studying the Tower. Achievements are an OOC objective so there's no reason for the character to say , all right..I need to beat these people.

OOC? Got married, have 2 kids, wound up working a midnight shift where I couldn't duel.


I have picked up that yourself and Mur are Gamers first. Meaning Roleplay is low man on the totem pole in your agenda, however the days of the hardcore gamer duelist are pretty much buried and gone. A lot of players I see now are interested in stories that are enhanced by dueling, not dueling that's enhanced by stories. Call that an unfair or sweeping assessment if you want, but that's my observation.

Since I started dueling the talk of making Keepership a Mage only achievement has come up again and again, and each time it's been argued that you do that and your participation will crater.

I stand by my earlier statement. LOW ranks being able to challenge and gain titles is one of the MAJOR things that sets DoM apart from the others. You've all ready removed a lot of what made DoM unique from Fist and Swords, remove this one? And there will be no difference. On top of that, how many OLD players are you willing to lose? How many have severed ties because of the changes all ready implemented? It's not like this sport has the numbers to risk alienating its veterans.

[Corlanthis]

One of the things I've always liked about DoM is that the Towers can be Challenged for as an Enchanter. I enjoy the fact that DoM is not homogenized with the other two sports, following the same Rank/Title Progression.

Matt made the comment that he did not like seeing the next-to-top rank being Challengable with only two wins. And this right here I think highlights a big issue. I think it shows a kind of DoF/DoS-centric bias. Because in Dof/DoS, both Opals and Barons could be argued to be the second-highest ranks in the sports.

But is Keepership really the second-highest DoM Rank? I'd argue it's not and this fact is something that helps make DoM separate and special from the other two sports.

As things stand now with the Towers, Mages are in no-way prevented from Challenging for them at full capacity. There is nothing stopping Mages from Challenging, and increasing the Rank Requirement to Challenge up to Mage would only decrease the pool of activity. I don't see any particular need to change the requirements for Tower Challenges, since it adds nothing for Mages that they did not already possess and only takes away one of the major draws for the lower ranks.

[BardGallant]

First note: I have not read this thread in its entirety. I'm mostly jumping in from the last post made by Artemus here. This statement struck me as absolutely true:

A truly new dueler . . . who comes in to check things out is more willing to duel someone low rank than higher up. When there's nothing but mages, new people are less likely to duel.

When I first started dueling a few short years ago, this was exactly what I faced. Higher ranked duelists can be intimidating for newbies, and I use that term affectionately, because I am one. Even now, after having been dueling for some time (not hardly as long as many of you, mind), I am intimidated by higher ranked duelists.

Rank is merely the ability to work the system and gain wins, not a true testament of skill.

I find this statement very apt as well. Many of you have had years of practice at this dueling thing, in any sport. You know the matrices like the backs of your hands. Some of you have even formed little mathematical equations in your heads on the statistical likelihood of certain moves being used in response to previous rounds... blah blah blah... all of that is beyond me.

I've personally accepted the fact that I'm likely to never achieve rank because I'm terrible with numbers. I'm never going to be as good as Neo, Jake, or G'nort in their respective sports. Two out of the three have been doing this for decades. There's no possible way I can compete with that much ingrained experience. I can try to excel, and I do a little... Obviously not on this character, though, hah!

I'm MORE likely to duel the lower ranks, not because I think they are easy prey but they will use combinations I hardly see from experienced duelists.

Also this. Man, Artemus. Quit saying things I agree with. That's part of the reason higher ranks are intimidating to newbies like myself. Sure, we've been given the matrices. We can consult them when we're stuck. But the matrices don't show us all the other variations of fancies and feints and focuses. So when a higher rank pulls an advanced move, it can throw a person off.

But I've also learned, in my short time, as Artemus said, "Experienced duelists are easier to predict." When I see someone use a fancy, feint or focus against me, I automatically find myself checking their rank on the standings to determine how many more they have. That way I can easier calculate what to expect. In most cases, duelists seem to be of the mindset, "If I have it, I'm going to use it." I keep that in mind when dueling higher ranks, and I've profited surprisingly well in some few cases from that understanding.

I don't want to keep trading opinions on this as I would like to hear from others

Well there ya go. A newbie's perspective. I may have more to say on this later, if I ever get a chance to read everything from the beginning. Like Artemus, I've got parenting responsibilities to keep me busy. It's why I don't get to duel as much anymore as I used to, in any sport, with any character.

[Lem DeAngelo]

So as a relative veteran of the sport my opinion is less valid than others? That's what you just blatantly said.

No, what I said was I want to hear opinions from others rather than both of us re-stating our opinions in multiple posts.

[Lem DeAngelo]

Thanks Cor and Bard for the new opinions. If anyone has experience with EF, please share those thoughts as well. It could be that Mur and I are the only ones that think EF is broken. If that's the case then there will obviously not be any changes to EF. The same goes for keepers being open to all ranks or closed to mage only. Everyone is welcome to share an opinion on it. We simply brought it up because we thought it may be better for the sport in the world of DoM4. No opinion is wrong.

[Goldglo]

As far as Elemental Fury goes, I used it in my Tower defense attempt in all 3 matches. Twice, Mur countered it and the third time it was a point-for-point trade. Long story short, I apparently can't time them well, but that was my first and only opportunity to use the spell. So from personal experience, someone who knows the matrix well, which Mur does, has the potential to negate the 'overpowered' aspect of the move.

To address another point: from a gaming perspective, as I wrote prior, I don't like the 2WoL = Challenge Capable. But as Cor's player wrote (and something I hadn't necessarily thought of), not everyone's looking at Keepers as the next-to-top-rank.

However, what others have pointed out is a very valid point: 2WoL Challenge Capable = More potential opportunities for role-play, character growth, story advancement, etc.

That in and of itself probably means lower-rank challenges should remain one of DoM's unique qualities (whether the requirement's upped from Enchanter to Sorcerer or whatever is a different discussion).

--Matt

[Wyheree]

I wanted to make two points:

First, regarding EF, I enjoyed having it as an ace in the hole, so to speak. It always seemed to be in the back of the challengers' minds that the EF could come at anytime. I don't have exact stats, but I remember hitting with it more often than not, and in one case, it turned the tide of a challenge duel back in my favor.

Second, it was rewarding at the time to be able to challenge for a title with only a single rank advancement. At the time I held the Tower of Water, my abilities in both DoS and DoF were just shy of abysmal. So holding the Tower was a bit of a confidence booster for a newcomer.

[Soerl Lute]

I haven't participated in the current version of DoM so I can't comment about anything related to it. Aside that I feel comfortable saying it seems to have helped generate more interest.

As far as the ideas for removing EF and making Keepers a Mage only situation, I completely disagree with both. I only had one challenge match with Soerl as a Keeper. I can't remember if I used it in both matches or not, but the very first time I used it, it got countered. I don't feel it's overpowered. Dueling around it or being afraid of the move is more a strategic flaw than an issue with the move itself, IMO. Admittedly it can be easy to be caught up in that line of thinking strategy-wise, but that doesn't mean the move should be gone. It's a move unique to the title which makes it interesting to use in duels. It's also a very interesting RP tool for those who are more interested in the RP than the gaming aspect.

The Mage pool is a little larger than it has been in the past, looking at the standings. However, I don't think it's anywhere near large enough to be discussing making Keepers a mage only title. If there were a large group of mages, like Warlords and Emeralds, I could see it being discussed. I'd still be against it, but I could see the reasoning for discussing the option. It's been said before, but for me personally, DoM was where my interest in titles came from. Like Wyh, when Soerl was a keeper I was terrible at both DoS and DoF. Getting the title in DoM motivated me to want to do better and participate in the other two.

[Goldglo]

I can't remember if I used it in both matches or not, but the very first time I used it, it got countered. I don't feel it's overpowered. Dueling around it or being afraid of the move is more a strategic flaw than an issue with the move itself, IMO. Admittedly it can be easy to be caught up in that line of thinking strategy-wise, but that doesn't mean the move should be gone. It's a move unique to the title which makes it interesting to use in duels. It's also a very interesting RP tool for those who are more interested in the RP than the gaming aspect.

From what I can see here http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... hp?t=22490, it was used once (2nd duel) and countered via MindWhip.

[Rhiannon Brock]

The DoM Matrix is often thought to be complex by some players because unlike Swords and Fists there is no clear defining line on all spells being offensive or defensive; some serve both purposes regardless of what the Tortoise badge says. It's just a matter of adjusting the mindset to the old adage of "sometimes the best defense is a good offense." For Swords, all defensive moves are in the matrix as scoring as ADV or .5 points. Contrary to the opinion of some, the Stophit is a counterattack and not a defense, so it earns the full point. Similarly, DoF's defensive moves are also clearly defined.

I don’t think making things uniform across all three sports makes things easier for newcomers. Pardon my bluntness here, but I believe it's a way of dumbing it down.

A general comment regarding rules changes, I would like to suggest that a date be added to the rules as to when the last update was made.

2. Keeper challenge rights at some point should be limited to mages (going forwards). Just like Opals and Barons. All other aspects stay the same but the rank restriction rises to mage from enchanter.

Challenging might be easy, winning is not always such. From the IC perspective, someone might have fabulous innate talent, but the rules restrict what they are allowed to do during duels. It’s much like the student that screws off in class and doesn’t do homework, but performs well on a test.

If you want to implement uniformity, however, then Keeper would need to be a rank and not a title attached to one’s rank.

As Harris said:

The fact remains that Mages can challenge for Keeper right now. Just because they may not want to for whatever reason doesn't change that fact. Trying to make Keeper more desirable to the upper ranks is effectively going to cost challenges to do so, as evidenced by the amount of lower ranks that challenge presently. Is it worth that price to *maybe* increase the prestige of the title? Is that going to be a huge boon for the sport in the long run? As I stated before, I think the lower ranks are heavily responsible for keeping DoM churning, and the idea of not liking a titleholder being a low rank primarily stems from the influence of the other two sports. I don't see the negative, in DoM, of a lower rank having a Keeper title. What's the bonafide reason, other than people not personally liking it? Is it hurting the sport somehow?

Precisely! Mages can already challenge, but some have elected not to for whatever reasons. This doesn’t really increase the challenge numbers and might actually discourage new players because things got harder for the newcomers.

3. The spell Elemental Fury should be removed and replaced with an extra focus giving the five keepers 4 foci to use. They would only be able to use this fourth focus against mages+, not against any character lower.

Isn’t part of the point of being a Keeper to hold sway over a particular element? Removing the EF completely does change that aspect of the game some. The rules say it’s only usable once per duel and by Keepers against other Keepers unless won as a prize by a non-Keeper character. In the latter case it’s one use only item. It’s not like EFs are flying around willy-nilly and so commonly used that they are of such a great concern.

Also from Harris:

So the trade here is giving people more do to once they hit 15 WoL, even though they'd have the exact same thing to do, challenge for Keeper? I don't understand the logic. If the Keeper title was meant for RP and not to offer an in game boon, why does it matter if a Mage possibly stomps an Enchanter if it's going to create RP? The only boon is possibly a greater challenge from a dueling perspective due to the matching ranks. And even then, it's not set in stone. DoM has better parity than it did before. And the fact remains, a Mage Keeper can still then be challenged by other Mages anyway. Is there a legitimate issue from Mages that they're bored? If so, that's an easy fix. Challenge for a Keeper title and RP. It seems like this is an entirely duel specific proposal, with little to no thought given to the impact on RP that may come with it.

I don’t understand the logic here either.

Let’s take the example of Maggie Harker, currently an apprentice duelist, who has defeated an Archmage, Lem, and a Mage, her mentor, Jacen. I’m not necessarily saying that a six year old character is ready to hold a tower. However, if she or anyone else is good enough to stand toe to toe with people of much higher rank and win then why shouldn’t those characters get a shot at the Tower at the Enchanter rank? It can make for some nail biting RP.

Matt says:

Personal opinion: Keep the All Ranks Tournaments over 'Twin Win' nights. Tournaments are opportunities to have bigger/different draws than regular dueling nights. Yeah, tournaments as a whole are not super easy to plan for and run, but I do think they've got a better potential for RP and people-draw than normal dueling does, even if you can get 2 WoL for a single win on the Twin Win nights.

Giving away free wins on a regular or semi-regular basis is not something I'm a fan of (again, personally). That's not to say it's a horrible idea, but it's just not one that I particularly like, especially if it comes at the expense of other events like All-Ranks Tournaments.

I prefer the Twin Win nights from time to time. I have never really liked the idea that one may gain or lose WoL on their ranking for participating in tournaments. However, that apparently falls under the heading “it’s how things are sometimes done” since it was how Neo ran some if not all tournaments.

What attracted me to DoM? I wanted to see how things had changed Dansantes ran things. Also, some people I know said they were enjoying it. Word of mouth.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Also, some people I know said they were enjoying it. Word of mouth.

That right there sums up a lot. This thread has been about pushing Keepership titles to Mage only, which mages can all ready go after if they want to.

I think what's getting forgotten is that when considering changes, Coordinators have to look at what will interest the most and widest range of players/characters. Not simply the few. What changes could bring in MORE people, not restrict the few the sport all ready has.

[DUEL Lem]

Based on current responses it does not look like there will be any changes in what ranks can challenge for Keepers. Discussion is still open in case someone still has an opinion they want to include, but for now it's definitely public opinion that Keepers remain open to enchanters+.

As for EF, we're trying to work out a type of ART with EF gems that can be used each round so that more people can offer an opinion on them, or at the very least get some experience with dueling with EF since most people rarely see EF.

Thanks everyone who has taken the time to offer an opinion so far. There will be other questions in the future that we'll bring up for polling, opinions, etc. There is nothing wrong with asking questions to make sure that the majority of people are enjoying DoM. No one has a wrong opinion, and everyone is entitled to have an opinion and share that opinion. Any major changes regarding DoM will always take the majority opinion into account.