Baron vs. Baron Challenges - 2024 Spring Cycle Update

[Alasdair Galloway]

Hello everyone!

Starting at the beginning of next cycle, we're going to introduce the ability for Barons to challenge other Barons. As we introduce this, it will not immediately be a permanent rule change but may be in the future. We want to playtest the concept for a bit to see how it goes and to allow for changes to be made before making it permanent or for the whole thing to be ditched if it doesn't work out.

While the rules posted here are not permanent, they will be the same for the first cycle and then any changes we make would go into effect the next cycle. The exception to this would be anything that's obviously gamebreaking or adding clarification or addressing something important that we might have missed when laying out the rules. So we'll have patches each cycle as needed, and hotfixes for more immediate items. So when giving feedback please keep this in mind. The rules posted here are unlikely to be changed before the ability to challenge starts next cycle unless it's going to break the game or if further clarification is required.

Right of Conquest:

1. Every Barony will receive a Right of Conquest token on Day 1 of each new cycle. They expire at the end of each cycle or when the Baron loses their Barony. During the cycle, new Barons will receive a Right of Conquest token upon earning a Barony.

2. The Right of Conquest allows a Baron to place their Barony on the line and can be issued to any other Barony provided that Barony is not involved in a challenge (either as challenging or the challenged) and there are no Challenge Queues. There is no grace period and a Barony can be challenged through the Right of Conquest so long as the Barony is not involved in any other challenges.

3. All challenges and challenge acceptances must follow the existing Challenge Procedures in terms of posting on the board and time frames and scheduling.

4. In order to issue a Right of Challenge, the Baron must have been active within the last thirty (30) days from the date of the challenge.

5. There are no Intercessions or Tests allowed for Right of Conquest duels and all duels will be fought in a single duel format.

6. An individual may only issue one Right of Challenge per cycle, regardless of any new Baronies gained.

Upon winning, the victor has the following choices:

1. They may claim and hold the Barony of their opponent which was placed on the line (as challenged) or challenged for (as challenger) in the Right of Conquest. New Right of Conquest tokens are not granted should this happen, and one individual is limited to holding a maximum of two (2) Baronies.

2. The victor may release either Barony to leave vacated. There is no penalty for taking this option.

3. If the victor claims a second Barony, that Barony must be the same alignment as their current Barony. Barons holding multiple Baronies cannot have both a Loyal and Renegade Barony and both must always be the same alignment.

The Right of Conquest will begin on the new cycle, which is April 7, 2024. If you have any questions or feedback, please post below. Again though we ask that you keep in mind that the rules posted above aren't expected to change for the Spring Cycle. As this is playtested, any suggested changes are more likely to take place in future cycles. With that said, there also might be things we missed or didn't think of that need to be implemented immediately, and if that's the case we'll make those changes as needed.

Thank you!

[Droet the Bold]

Hey there!

First thing, why are these only single duels? Why shouldn't these be best of three, or the choice of best of three or single? There's no Test involved, so I really don't see why it's limited to single duels.

Second thing, the alignment thing. Does that mean Loyal Barons can only challenge other Loyal Barons, and Renegade other Renegades? If I misunderstood that, fine. I would think the alignment on a conquered Barony would change to the alignment of the winning Baron, so indeed a single Baron is not both Loyal and Renegade.

Third, assuming the winner decides to vacate the other Barony, how soon would that Barony be available again? Would it be added as a prize to the next ART or another tournament? I personally don't like the idea of taking up to half the Baronies out of circulation, which seems possible, if not probable. That seems to be the point though, so I think maybe a rule that whenever two (2)* Baronies are out of circulation, a tournament is announced with them as prizes should exist.
*Number subject to change, but probably should not be higher than three (3).

[Reign]

Question:

In the rare event a baronial council is called for any reason, would a single Baron holding two baronies count as one vote or two?

[PrlUnicorn]

I'm glad Droet started this conversation because I've been trying to find the right words to use.

Why are these challenges limited to single duels if no tests or grants that permit someone else to intervene are not allowed? Barons have always had the choice of single duel or Best of Three for challenges. Removing that choice for Baron to Baron duels seems like removing a perk of rank to me.

As far as vacating a title goes. I don't agree with that not having a penalty. If that is going to be allowed then there should be no penalty if a Baron refuses a challenge from another Baron.

This post and the rules address what happens if a challenge is not accepted or is outright refused:

3. All challenges and challenge acceptances must follow the existing Challenge Procedures in terms of posting on the board and time frames and scheduling.

viewtopic.php?p=195677#p195677
Challenge Acceptance and Scheduling
1. A challenge MUST be answered, or it is an abdication of title.
All challenges must be answered within five days of validation and dueled within two weeks (14 days) of validation. Both deadlines will be at the end of the day, 11:59pm ET.
2. If you are waiving a grace period in response to a challenge, you may do so in the challenge thread but it must be done before the challenge is validated by the Duel of Swords staff.
Any form of response to the challenge thread by the titleholder, after validation, is considered an acceptance.
It is the responsibility of the challenger to secure an official.The caller chosen must be agreed upon by all parties directly involved in the challenge. DoS Available Callers


I went back to an old discussion and found something to illustrate my point on the consequences for vacating a barony being maintained.

Again, this is about consequences to in-game actions. I don't think it's a good game mechanic if you're allowed to do something without facing any potential repercussions in game, and changing alignment - especially going from loyal where you enjoy grace to Renegade where you can have a huge impact on challenges - after you lose is exactly that. Like Conner stated, the drawbacks for being a Renegade are that you are open to any challenge at any time and open to challenge queues. These are null if you switch to Renegade after already having lost. All reward, no risk. This means there is no potential gameplay to come from this in-game, and so I don't think it should be in the game.

Emphasis mine. Cajsa is addressing alignment changes. However, vacating a Baron title currently has consequences and I see no reason to remove them especially if the person they are challenging is still subjected to a penalty of some kind for refusal.

[Reign]

To play Devil's Advocate, I think there's merit in vacancy so long as it's one title and not both. I'd love the hell out of challenging another Baron that my character doesn't like and the loser has to give up their barony entirely. Like, it wouldn't be a matter of wanting both, just wanting that person to not have one, ya know?

"2. The victor may release either Barony to leave vacated. There is no penalty for taking this option."

So does "either Barony" mean one or the other, or can it mean both?

[Delahada]

So long as it’s a mechanic that remains in character, yeah that would be cool story. I have reservations due to previous experience, however. I feel like this is a new mechanic rife with the possibility for abuse.

Like Droet, I’m not a fan of the possibility of up to half the baronies being removed from circulation, either. Not without an immediate opportunity for other people to obtain them, such as an extra tournament or week long points earning event. Please do not leave them vacant for months at a time until the next ART again, should they become abandoned.

I do like that it opens up avenues to allow me to acquire baronies I have not yet held without having to lose the one I’m currently holding. Played correctly, I could possibly achieve those goals in two cycles if I wanted to try, but I’m not in any hurry.


ETA: Several hours later, the question occurs to me. If a victorious Baron chooses to abandon one of the Baronies won in a Right of Conquest Challenge, how soon must they decide to do this? Immediately, or at any time?

[PrlUnicorn]

So long as it’s a mechanic that remains in character, yeah that would be cool story. I have reservations due to previous experience, however. I feel like this is a new mechanic rife with the possibility for abuse.

That's my concern as well. In my original draft, I had the following, but left it out: Allowing a title to be vacated without a penalty could create a situation where someone purposefully games the system and puts a title out of play for the potential use of others with zero penalty to the character vacating one of the titles in their quest to catch them all.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to be all title holders, that's part of the game. I do take issue with titles being vacant for extended periods of time.

Like Droet, I’m not a fan of the possibility of up to half the baronies being removed from circulation, either. Not without an immediate opportunity for other people to obtain them, such as an extra tournament or week long points earning event. Please do not leave them vacant for months at a time until the next ART again, should they become abandoned.

If someone were to time things right, theoretically, they could challenge and defeat a fellow Baron in the last week of one cycle then do it again the next month (which would be in the following cycle) after vacating one of the two titles (as the tokens last a full cycle and Barons are given a new one at the beginning of the next.) Since the ARTs are generally two weeks before the end of the cycle, that one Baron alone could create two vacancies in a cycle.

We have had Barons in the past, when the 7 day rule was in place, that would: wait until the last minute to respond then time the challenge so it would fall in the the first week of the next month. With either a 30 day rule or calendar month rule in place, that would give them extra grace time. Whether that was coincidence or contrived isn't the issue, that it could and has happened is.

[PrlUnicorn]

I realized that I need further clarification on this from my post:

If someone were to time things right, theoretically, they could challenge and defeat a fellow Baron in the last week of one cycle then do it again the next month (which would be in the following cycle) after vacating one of the two titles (as the tokens last a full cycle and Barons are given a new one at the beginning of the next.) Since the ARTs are generally two weeks before the end of the cycle, that one Baron alone could create two vacancies in a cycle.

Right of Conquest:

1. Every Barony will receive a Right of Conquest token on Day 1 of each new cycle. They expire at the end of each cycle or when the Baron loses their Barony. During the cycle, new Barons will receive a Right of Conquest token upon earning a Barony.

2. The Right of Conquest allows a Baron to place their Barony on the line and can be issued to any other Barony provided that Barony is not involved in a challenge (either as challenging or the challenged) and there are no Challenge Queues. There is no grace period and a Barony can be challenged through the Right of Conquest so long as the Barony is not involved in any other challenges.

3. All challenges and challenge acceptances must follow the existing Challenge Procedures in terms of posting on the board and time frames and scheduling.

4. In order to issue a Right of Challenge, the Baron must have been active within the last thirty (30) days from the date of the challenge.

5. There are no Intercessions or Tests allowed for Right of Conquest duels and all duels will be fought in a single duel format.

Upon winning, the victor has the following choices:

1. They may claim and hold the Barony of their opponent which was placed on the line (as challenged) or challenged for (as challenger) in the Right of Conquest. New Right of Conquest tokens are not granted should this happen, and one individual is limited to holding a maximum of two (2) Baronies.

2. The victor may release either Barony to leave vacated. There is no penalty for taking this option.

3. If the victor claims a second Barony, that Barony must be the same alignment as their current Barony. Barons holding multiple Baronies cannot have both a Loyal and Renegade Barony and both must always be the same alignment.

Nothing there addresses whether or not someone that vacates a title will be issued a new token afterward. Can we get a ruling on that please or did I miss something?

[Alasdair Galloway]

Hey there!

First thing, why are these only single duels? Why shouldn't these be best of three, or the choice of best of three or single? There's no Test involved, so I really don't see why it's limited to single duels.

So this is something that we've gone back and forth with. We settled on making it a single duel to make the stakes higher and because it sets it apart from other sports which are always a best of three. If more people prefer best of three then in the future we can make that change.

Second thing, the alignment thing. Does that mean Loyal Barons can only challenge other Loyal Barons, and Renegade other Renegades? If I misunderstood that, fine. I would think the alignment on a conquered Barony would change to the alignment of the winning Baron, so indeed a single Baron is not both Loyal and Renegade.

Any Baron can challenge any Baron, regardless of alignment. It just means that if Droet holds Seaside and Dockside, then both have to either be Loyal or both have to be Renegade.

Third, assuming the winner decides to vacate the other Barony, how soon would that Barony be available again? Would it be added as a prize to the next ART or another tournament? I personally don't like the idea of taking up to half the Baronies out of circulation, which seems possible, if not probable. That seems to be the point though, so I think maybe a rule that whenever two (2)* Baronies are out of circulation, a tournament is announced with them as prizes should exist.
*Number subject to change, but probably should not be higher than three (3).

The current rules would be in place. Basically it would depend on how long they'd be vacant. There may be other factors in place like if there are other events happening, staff availability, etc., but we'd do our best to not have them sit for a whole cycle.

[Alasdair Galloway]

Question:

In the rare event a baronial council is called for any reason, would a single Baron holding two baronies count as one vote or two?

Good question! The way I think of this is that each Barony has its own vote, so if Reign had two Baronies, that means two votes.

[Alasdair Galloway]

Why are these challenges limited to single duels if no tests or grants that permit someone else to intervene are not allowed? Barons have always had the choice of single duel or Best of Three for challenges. Removing that choice for Baron to Baron duels seems like removing a perk of rank to me.

Best of Three wasn't always an option! We settled on a single format because of the reasons stated to Droet. But again, if the majority feel a best of three is better then we can change that in the future.

As far as vacating a title goes. I don't agree with that not having a penalty. If that is going to be allowed then there should be no penalty if a Baron refuses a challenge from another Baron.

Reign touched on this with an IC reason why, but also we want people to be able to engage in this mechanic without feeling as if they have to hold two titles at once. And it would only apply upon winning. If there was a retirement later then current penalties remain intact. This is also in the case of a person being challenged who already holds two Baronies; they can't hold a third, so they can choose which to hold and which to vacate.

And to answer Reign's question, either is one or the other, not both. So if Reign holds Old Temple then wins Dockside, she can drop either Old Temple OR Dockside but not both.

In this example, Reign is also putting herself at risk because if she loses the challenge, she no longer holds Old Temple. Remember that the Baron is putting their own title on the line when challenging another.

[Alasdair Galloway]

ETA: Several hours later, the question occurs to me. If a victorious Baron chooses to abandon one of the Baronies won in a Right of Conquest Challenge, how soon must they decide to do this? Immediately, or at any time?

This should be immediately, but as far as that definition I think it's something that we need to consider. I'd like to give people some time to think about it, but not too much time. So maybe within 1 or 2 days of winning.

[Alasdair Galloway]

Nothing there addresses whether or not someone that vacates a title will be issued a new token afterward. Can we get a ruling on that please or did I miss something?

They would not.

[PrlUnicorn]

Why are these challenges limited to single duels if no tests or grants that permit someone else to intervene are not allowed? Barons have always had the choice of single duel or Best of Three for challenges. Removing that choice for Baron to Baron duels seems like removing a perk of rank to me.

Best of Three wasn't always an option! We settled on a single format because of the reasons stated to Droet. But again, if the majority feel a best of three is better then we can change that in the future.

Perhaps, it would be better to say Best of Three has been an option at least since this site was originally founded, c. 2004
There are references to Best of Three in the Pre-District Baron histories. Unfortunately, unlike the District pages, there are no dates listed for those matches, only the dates of a reign. The earliest reference in the standings that notes a Best of Three is here in Standings for 5 Apr 2001. Information going backward from there is spotty at best. The archives only covers in character posts.

Nothing there addresses whether or not someone that vacates a title will be issued a new token afterward. Can we get a ruling on that please or did I miss something?

They would not.

They won't be given a new token ever again or just for the cycle in which they vacate a title?
As someone who currently has a character with a title, the distinction is important to me.

[Alasdair Galloway]

Nothing there addresses whether or not someone that vacates a title will be issued a new token afterward. Can we get a ruling on that please or did I miss something?

They would not.

They won't be given a new token ever again or just for the cycle in which they vacate a title?
As someone who currently has a character with a title, the distinction is important to me.

Sorry, I may have misunderstood the context in which the question was asked. Tokens are given out to Baronies at the start of each cycle, and then to any new Baron who wins a Barony during the cycle. So in the case of one Baron dethroning another and choosing to vacate the title they challenged for, there is no token awarded.

So example:
Alasdair is Baron of New Haven and challenges for Seaside.
Alasdair wins.
Alasdair chooses to vacate Seaside rather than hold it.
Alasdair does not receive a token.

This means that Alasdair would only receive another token if he was Baron of New Haven at the start of the next cycle, or if he lost the Barony of New Haven and won another during that same cycle.

I think we might need to revisit the second portion of this to make it a little more simple to track and offer less possibility of abuse and instead state that once an individual issues challenge using the Right of Conquest, they aren't able to issue another one until the following cycle. Thinking on it, I believe this was probably talked about in the early stages and got lost somewhere, so that might be something that's updated before this coming cycle.