Mentor Mod Rule

[Rakeesh]

I don't like that you can begin a duel with no mod from your mentor (whether they are outside of the room, or in a duel themselves), and then receive one as soon as they enter. Should your opponent have to keep careful tabs on everything going on in the room, who enters, etc, for their count on your mods?

I don't think so. You start the duel with a certain number of mods. That number shouldn't change, either way, IMO.

If I'm dueling someone without mods, but with a mentor, I shouldn't need to worry that their mentor is going to walk in after I've submitted for a round and completely change their move selection by magically giving them a modifier that they haven't had for the entire fight.

If I have a mentor, I shouldn't need to worry that my mentor's going to poof after I've chosen a move and completely wreck my gameplan. It goes both ways.

[Claire Gallows]

I meant to post something similar to this a little while back. I agree fully.

[Hope]

I agree completely I've lost a lot of duels this way, in sudden death no less.

[King]

I agree completely I've lost a lot of duels this way, in sudden death no less.

I recall one of these moments during Hydra.

While I agree that it can be seen as a little dirty pool.. it is something to be expected. When you (the player, not singling anyone out) choose to duel against a person who has a mentor next to their names, you must accept the fact that the mentor may show throughout the duel. I've seen this done many times. Vigilance, while annoying at times, is important if the duel can cost you a negative point to your records.

But if this small bit of help turns the duels tide from a 6 mod vs 0 into a 6 vs 1 in the final rounds? I, personally, wouldn't question it. As the mentor-character accepted fighting a higher rank, so should the higher rank accept the possibility of the mentor calling in their mentee at any time.

[Rakeesh]

Disagree, strongly. I do not feel like I should accept it. I feel like the rule should be changed, so that you begin a duel with a certain number of mods - and that number doesn't change.

There is absolutely no reason not to set it up that way. It's more fair to both players. The way the rule is set up currently ... it's not good.

[King]

Reposting due to edit.

If this small bit of help turns the duels tide from a 6 mod vs 0 into a 6 vs 1 in the final rounds? I, personally, wouldn't question it. As the mentor-character accepted fighting a higher rank, so should the higher rank accept the possibility of the mentor calling in their mentee at any time.

Glass vs Glass? It could prove to be a little annoying, but the risk is there. It's on the standings that the player is mentored. It's not as if it is hidden away.

If you, personally, do not want to accept it. Then I hope in the future notes are made who is a mentee and who is not so you know not to fight them. Or reach out to a mentor character OOC.

While I agree with you, it is somewhat annoying to lose to this, but the warning signs are there. Me? Personally? When I fight a mentored character I fight as if they have +1 mod because I know at any time their mentor can swoop in and give them the advantage.

[Rakeesh]

Example 1:

It's 4-4. I am a Glass with no mods, and you are an Emerald with 2 mods left. I just legswept, and am debating a Spinkick. You've already selected jab.

My mentor walks in, types ::Sees Glass fighting, and calls out towards him:: You can do this! Go big or go home!

I decide to Feint Flip instead of Spinkick, since I just gained a mod half-way through the round, and the round resolves. We null that round. Next round, you FDO, and I legsweep and win.


Example 2:

It's 4-4. I'm a Glass that's been saving my mentor mod all duel. You have 1 mod left. We just traded on dual jabs, and I've selected legsweep this round, knowing that I can feint jumpkick next round if I'm concerned about you trying to defend. My mentor logs out and you jumpkick.

All of the sudden, I have to risk a Spinkick to go with my gut that you'll defend. You FDU, and win.

Both of these situations are annoying; it's not just a bad rule in regards to the people who have to fight mentees. It's a bad rule period.

I'm all about the mentor/mentee relationship, but these rules need to be super cut and dry. Whatever the number of mods that you have when you start the fight, that's how many mods you should have all fight.

It shouldn't change. I just can't see a good argument for why it would.

[Rachael Blackthorne]

During matches where their Mentor is both a) present and b) `paying attention’, the Mentee will receive an in-game benefit of 1 more modifier than their current rank allows. Thus, Glass would get 1 mod, Jade 3 mods, and Rubies 4 mods. By ‘paying attention’, we mean that the Mentor can’t simply be lurking in the chatroom, calling duels, or dueling themselves. The idea is that the Mentor would be coaching their Mentee from outside the ring, giving advice, pointers, etc. without external distraction.

The above is quoted from Matt's rules on mentoring in DoF.

From what I and most people would presume, by those rules as worded, that means that the mentor should be actively present from beginning to end of the mentee's match. The mentor should not be dueling one moment and then suddenly be able to mentor their mentee when the mentor's match is over, if the mentee is dueling while the mentor is dueling someone else.

Simply put, if the mentee wants the benefit, the mentor should be actively present during the whole match, to be fair to both the mentee and to the person dueling the mentee.

[King]

We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I'm still on the stance of anyone facing a mentee character should realize the threat of their mentor swooping in at any time.

Hopefully more will give their own thoughts on the subject and things can be debated accordingly.

[Rakeesh]

Fair enough, King.

---

I think that that might be another issue here, Rachael.

Modifiers are an OOC concept. They have strict OOC rules, and are representative of a character's skill level. Something that changes the way modifiers work needs to have rules that are a strict OOC concept. As worded, the pre-requisites for how mentor modifiers work is IC, and that's a problem. It's vague. Who makes the call on whether or not someone is actively coaching their mentee? It's a subjective pre-requisite.

Again, I think that it needs to be cut and dry. IMO, the best way to do this, is just to not change the number of mods that you have in your pool from the start of the duel. You can, through roleplay, make any situation make sense. As a mentee, my character could recall words of wisdom from their mentor even if the player of their mentor's internet connection just poofed and they got kicked from the room.

But when you're talking about modifiers, an OOC concept, there needs to be a fair OOC set of rules on how they work. That's the "game" aspect of dueling.

[King]

During matches where their Mentor is both a) present and b) `paying attention’, the Mentee will receive an in-game benefit of 1 more modifier than their current rank allows. Thus, Glass would get 1 mod, Jade 3 mods, and Rubies 4 mods. By ‘paying attention’, we mean that the Mentor can’t simply be lurking in the chatroom, calling duels, or dueling themselves. The idea is that the Mentor would be coaching their Mentee from outside the ring, giving advice, pointers, etc. without external distraction.

The above is quoted from Matt's rules on mentoring in DoF.

From what I and most people would presume, by those rules as worded, that means that the mentor should be actively present from beginning to end of the mentee's match. The mentor should not be dueling one moment and then suddenly be able to mentor their mentee when the mentor's match is over, if the mentee is dueling while the mentor is dueling someone else.

Simply put, if the mentee wants the benefit, the mentor should be actively present during the whole match, to be fair to both the mentee and to the person dueling the mentee.

Can you bold in the rules where it states the mentor must be there the whole time? Simply presuming something means something does not mean it's fully the case.

Since this seemed to stem from a duel tonight, let's look at the rules.

During matches where their Mentor is both a) present and b) `paying attention’, the Mentee will receive an in-game benefit of 1 more modifier than their current rank allows. Thus, Glass would get 1 mod, Jade 3 mods, and Rubies 4 mods. By ‘paying attention’, we mean that the Mentor can’t simply be lurking in the chatroom, calling duels, or dueling themselves. The idea is that the Mentor would be coaching their Mentee from outside the ring, giving advice, pointers, etc. without external distraction.

Bolded is mine.

The mentee had currently been dueling. It states the mentor needs to be there during the duel, which does not mean beginning/end, but during. The wording can mean the final seconds of the last round even. The mentor was dueling as well, due to this the mentee was unable to use their bonus. The mentor had been in the room the whole time, not lurking. When the duel was over the mentor paid attention and "coached" their mentee. In doing so, the mentee was allowed their fancy.

That is for this case only.

The rules don't state, clearly, that they have to be in the room the whole time. Presuming a rule means something does not necessarily mean it to be true. Unless there's a clear cut ruling, which I believe Rakeesh is looking for, then it appears that any mentor can show up at any time to help their Mentee during a duel.

[Hope]

Simply put, if the mentee wants the benefit, the mentor should be actively present during the whole match, to be fair to both the mentee and to the person dueling the mentee.

You have done this very thing to me in the past with your mentee. Does this only become a problem when your toes are stepped on?

[Rakeesh]

Let's not make this a personal thing. I'm sure most folks here have both benefited from, and been victim to the way this rule's set up.

That's not why I brought this up.

I would've brought the issue up before, but this was my first time experiencing it in this context. I didn't know that a mentee could gain mods half-way through a duel, and by pre-requisites that seem very subjective.

[King]

Let's not make this a personal thing. I'm sure most folks here have both benefited from, and been victim to the way this rule's set up.

That's not why I brought this up.

I have to agree. While it does shine a negative light to some reasoning for wanting something changed that has been personally exploited in the past, it's not the main focus of the thread.

I, personally, have had mentor characters show up early or mid-match to help coach their mentees. It's never been a problem and from what I've recalled many players who saw this changed their tactics. Then again, I try to make it known my character is there to be a mentor -- which I think is Matt's intent IC wise. To openly coaching / helping your mentee and not sitting in a corner and simply watching.

It's close to Christmas though. Would it not be too much to ask for any decision that can be made wait until after the new years?

[Hope]

Let's not make this a personal thing. I'm sure most folks here have both benefited from, and been victim to the way this rule's set up.

That's not why I brought this up.

I would've brought the issue up before, but this was my first time experiencing it in this context. I didn't know that a mentee could gain mods half-way through a duel, and by pre-requisites that seem very subjective.

Well it'd be a lot more convenient for Mentors if the Mod acted as it does in DoS but that would homogenize the sports one step further. The rule is clear in its diction. There was even an OOC clarification of the rule the round prior. When a mentor mod can't be used due to the mentor dueling, then the Mentor's duel is concluded, that should be an alarming signal.