Hydra Season 2 OOC Discussion

[Sylus Kurgen]

Seeing as we're almost halfway done with Hydra, I want to start a thread here just to let people know at what I'm looking at for Hydra Season 2. If you want to comment, feel free. None of this is in stone, and I'll be inviting others to work with me on Season 2 more in depth once this one concludes.


1st Rework: Points.

While I will keep the 5pt and 10pt difference for Regular Dueling, I am considering making Challenges worth:

10 times the difference in score. For Keeper/Opal/Baron

5-4 duel =10. 5-3 =20, 5-2=30 etc.

and

15 times the difference in score for Overlord/Archmage

5-4 duel=15, 5-3=30, 5-2= 45, etc.

But the above is just for the FINAL duel so as not to influence preferences of Bo3 or Single Duel.

Tournaments will remain 50 points, but I may throw in that the winner of like the WLT/AMT/ and DQ gets the 50 for winning, but not their accumulated points for getting that far on top of the large prize.

RoK will remain the same value as winning any of the tournaments.


Rework 2: Declaration (tied in with points.)
It occurred to me that it might be interesting to let participants defend their points a little more actively so...

"This duel is Hydra" the duelist is gambling their full 5 or 10 points based whether their opponent is in the tournament or not.

"This duel is Half-Hydra" meaning the duelist is only gambling 5points whether they win or lose.

"This duel is Headless Hydra", the duelist isn't gambling any points. They gain 0pts and lose 0pts.

I would say Callers can mark this as simply (Hydra vs Half), (Half vs Headless), (Headless vs Hydra) etc. Or I may ask them to use a numeral notation like (1 vs 1/2), ( 0 vs 0 ), etc

Hydra vs Hydra. Same as we see now.

Hydra vs Half. They Hydra is risking their full 10 points if they lose and gain 10pts if they win. However, if the Half-Hydra wins, they only gain 5pts, not the 10 gambled by the Full Hydra.

Hydra vs Headless. The Hydra is risking their full 10pts on a win, but if they lose its only 5 points. However The Headless Hydra doesn't gain points or lose anything from this duel. They have elected not to risk any points and therefore don't gain anything other than protecting their teams points.

Single Duelist Entries:

I'm looking at something like a Centurion Pool or maybe Praetorian Pool. These duelists, much like Xanth is doing now are out for themselves and don't care for teams. However, these individuals would "Work for" the Game Master (Sylus).

They win, they get their gambled points. However, the points their opponent loses, the Centurion/Praetorian gets to allocated to the duelist or Team they wish as either Personal Points or Team Points just to wreak havoc on the teams.

[Goldglo]

My initial thoughts based on the suggested proposals/alterations for Season 2:

1st Rework: Points.

While I will keep the 5pt and 10pt difference for Regular Dueling, I am considering making Challenges worth:

10 times the difference in score. For Keeper/Opal/Baron

5-4 duel =10. 5-3 =20, 5-2=30 etc.

and

15 times the difference in score for Overlord/Archmage

5-4 duel=15, 5-3=30, 5-2= 45, etc.

But the above is just for the FINAL duel so as not to influence preferences of Bo3 or Single Duel.

Tournaments will remain 50 points, but I may throw in that the winner of like the WLT/AMT/ and DQ gets the 50 for winning, but not their accumulated points for getting that far on top of the large prize.

RoK will remain the same value as winning any of the tournaments.

I understand what you're doing here, but I don't know that it gets the intended results. For example, take a best of 3 challenge:
Match 1 = Dueler X shuts out Dueler Y
Match 2 = Dueler Y wins 5-4, no sudden death
Match 3 = Dueler X wins 5-4, sudden death

Dueler X's shutout, basically the best part of the challenge (for them, anyway), gets totally negated if only the final duel is counted. Maybe amend the proposal to:
'The 10/15 times difference will count for the most points differential in the challenge.' That way, it doesn't matter if it's a single duel or Best of 3, as the largest score difference is the only one that counts.

Rework 2: Declaration (tied in with points.)

Regarding the whole 2nd section about declarations - I am not at all a fan of allowing duelers to choose which of their duels count for the tournament and which do not. Declaration is, to me, the single most annoying thing about the Hydra Cup tournament. I'm probably in the minority there and I recognize that.

The way I look at it is this: if a character signs up to participate, then they've signed up and all their duels should count (except duels vs. characters who are on their same team). If a character doesn't want their duels to count, then they shouldn't have entered the event.

In my view, allowing characters to pick and choose when they want a duel to count for Hydra does bring strategy into play. Will a dueler risk dueling Character X or someone from Team X? If so, will they put points on the line? Will Character X, who's getting tons of points, find lots of refusals for Hydra matches while their teammates, who may be performing less well, have no trouble getting Hydra matches? We've seen some of this take place already over the last few weeks. Maybe that sort of thing was part of what was intended when the rules were initially drafted - I don't necessarily like it, but declaration can involve some strategic planning.

However, I believe that the whole declaration deal complicates things from a caller's standpoint (tracking which duels were and were not Hydra) as well as from a player's perspective (having to remember to declare, or not, every single duel) and from a scorekeeping standpoint. I just don't like it and especially in the proposed format of halfs and fulls and headless' - I think it's overcomplicating things.

Long story short, I think if a character's in Hydra, all their duels should count for the length of the tournament and I think declarations should be removed outright.

Single Duelist Entries:

I'm looking at something like a Centurion Pool or maybe Praetorian Pool. These duelists, much like Xanth is doing now are out for themselves and don't care for teams. However, these individuals would "Work for" the Game Master (Sylus).

They win, they get their gambled points. However, the points their opponent loses, the Centurion/Praetorian gets to allocated to the duelist or Team they wish as either Personal Points or Team Points just to wreak havoc on the teams.

I don't like this. Allowing something like this starts to open the door for the potential of grudges coming in to play (Player X doesn't like Player Y, so if Player X wins a duel they will assign points that do the most harm to Player Y), the potential for stacking coming in to play (Captain X makes some sort of agreement with the Free Agents to always assign points to their team/team members), etc.

Not that any of that stuff should happen, or would happen. But it could happen. Honestly, I don't even really like the whole "triple points vs. BeatDown" situation that's happening currently in Hydra Season 1. I think that allowing points-distribution is a detriment to the event and to the participants.

If a team runs away with the tournament, then good for them! If it's a close-fought battle down to the last week, it would certainly suck if an outside influence (extra points, free-agents assigning points, etc.) influenced the final outcome.

Take this season - so far, CrushBob's buried deep in last place (I think we're still in negative points overall). If, somehow, we were to come back and win or take 2nd, 3rd, whatever, I'd personally feel better about it if, as a team, the team did so on our own merits, not because we got free points or people gave us points or anything like that. If we duel well, then we'll get points. If we don't duel well, we're going to give away a lot of points. That's the name of the game.

Likewise, Xanth by himself has shown that a single dueler can more than carry a team (and Xanth right now, for all intents and purposes, is the whole GoS team). He ought to get props for that and, when the tournament's over, no matter where GoS winds up in the standings, we'll all know he did what he did on his own merits, not because someone gave points to other teams or boosted his team's points.

All that being said, my opinions are just that, mine - if things work better differently that I think they ought for the community at large, that's totally fine!

Lastly and most importantly, I want to again extend my thanks to you for running this whole tournament (especially with a new baby!) and for seeking feedback/ways to improve things going forward.

--Matt

[MurOllavan]

I was going to post thoughts once the cup is over but here goes.

1. I don't have much opinion on points, but I would point out something. In general the tournament is weighted towards duelists that have a positive win rate who duel a lot. I wouldn't mind seeing tournaments/challenges weighted to give a lower volume duelist a shot at making a bigger impact.

2. Might want to consider Hydra participants agreeing prior to waive grace periods on any title they have where allowed for the duration of the tournament. Would allow everyone more shots though I'll admit I never liked grace periods at all.

3. I'm actually for no declarations as well as this simplifies things greatly. You're in, you're in. In a similar vein I'm also obviously not in favor of the bounty, as it causes me to play Mur differently. I like to duel anyone in any sport and since I can't overcome the odds I begin to use the declarations (even asking opponent to state theirs) which I wish neither existed.

4. I could see like Matt said where these free agents favor one team or player over others.

5. I would think it would be cool if Hydra duels were 10pts but the two participants could agree to a double Hydra match counting twice for 20/-20.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Mur, Matt, thank you both for the feedback. This is the kind of information I need to make the right adjustments. I have my thoughts but being one person I can't account for every factor. (And again, thank everyone for the congrats! ).


As stated before, these all are things I'm simply considering. I don't have heavy feelings one way or another on any of them, but I'll probably look at what brings the most parity to the competition from a points perspective, an individual performance perspective, and an overall team perspective.

[Candy Hart]

Likewise, Xanth by himself has shown that a single dueler can more than carry a team (and Xanth right now, for all intents and purposes, is the whole GoS team). He ought to get props for that and, when the tournament's over, no matter where GoS winds up in the standings, we'll all know he did what he did on his own merits, not because someone gave points to other teams or boosted his team's points.

This.

I actually suggested a "Burdened Mule" trophy (or something better named) for the duelist that earns the largest percentage of their team's points. Wherein, here it would be 100% Xanth.

I think it might be neat to have other 'trophies' for Hydra 2... and maybe not all good. (Most points lost in a week?) Though I guess you have to have a particular sense of humor to enjoy being the best at being the worst for a time period.

--

I agree with Matt's idea toward the points being determined from the best duel difference in a challenge.

--

I also agree about Hydra being a default thing. While it's nice to pick and choose, bet and judge... it seems to be more of a hassle to work with for callers and duelers alike. I think the hydra/half/headless would only serve to further complicate things.

Although, what if...

You had automatic declaration from a dueler for the night/week. "I desire my fights to be headless." Whatever. On the boards the day/week before. That way it leaves it up to the score trackers to sort it out and not the callers or players before every fight.

Because maybe someone just wants a break from the game and just duel for the fun of it.

*shrugs* A random idea.

--

One thought that I had is that the monopoly seems like a near impossible bet. Given that the teams are maxed at 8 for monopolies to be possible, yet even so... they're still quite a reach... I thought it's be better to have smaller teams (maybe 5 members.. and only one player can have two alts-- I already have my dream team picked out!). I thought this could possibly generate more teams.

--

Along with smaller teams I thought a shorter time span could also work. I don't know, ask me how I feel at the end of month two... maybe it won't feel so long by then.

--

I can see where Matt is coming from with the Centurion thing... but I still like the idea.

--

For now.. that is all that comes to mind.

But---- Thank you!! I'm having lots of fun with this. ^^

[Seirichi]

Likewise, Xanth by himself has shown that a single dueler can more than carry a team (and Xanth right now, for all intents and purposes, is the whole GoS team). He ought to get props for that and, when the tournament's over, no matter where GoS winds up in the standings, we'll all know he did what he did on his own merits, not because someone gave points to other teams or boosted his team's points.

Xanth is a total boss. I've been not so secretly rooting for him this whole tournament.

I like the declaration. Just be sure to say what you're dueling for and it's all good. Though if the bounty system wasn't implemented again, no declaration would be fine. I don't feel comfortable dueling right now since I don't want to even attempt having a negative impact on my team by losing, and if I did feel like dueling I would like it to be non-hydra. Automatic Hydra in an upcoming second tournament, along with the bounty system, would cripple more activity IMO.

Agreed with both Mur and Candy on both their monopoly opinions. On one side, everyone waiving grace period at the start of the tournament to give other teams shot at the monopoly would be great. But Candy's suggestion would probably gain the tournament even more teams if the monopoly wasn't used all together. Focusing more on nightly duels + tournaments + challenges could be enough.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Dueler X's shutout, basically the best part of the challenge (for them, anyway), gets totally negated if only the final duel is counted. Maybe amend the proposal to:
'The 10/15 times difference will count for the most points differential in the challenge.' That way, it doesn't matter if it's a single duel or Best of 3, as the largest score difference is the only one that counts.
...

Regarding the whole 2nd section about declarations - I am not at all a fan of allowing duelers to choose which of their duels count for the tournament and which do not. Declaration is, to me, the single most annoying thing about the Hydra Cup tournament. I'm probably in the minority there and I recognize that.

I'm horrible with advanced statistics or I might have used the TDL/IFL point system of points per duel, points defended per duel, etc.

I know the declaration thing is tedious and it was Tass who said it to me best "I don't see why I have to declare. It's public knowledge"

There are 37 characters in the first Season of Hydra. that is a lot of duels to track and calculate. I initially let characters/players choose what duels are for Hydra simple to give them the option. Like say a duelist hits a cold streak, nothing but losses. This can heavily impact the teams points and place undue burden on the others.

2. Might want to consider Hydra participants agreeing prior to waive grace periods on any title they have where allowed for the duration of the tournament. Would allow everyone more shots though I'll admit I never liked grace periods at all.

This is something more on personal preference of the duelists. I don't quite see many actually agreeing to do this. Those that enter agreeing to waive any and all grace periods? I'm not overly certain on the whole idea.

4. I could see like Matt said where these free agents favor one team or player over others.

The other thing I consider was letting the Centurions be just that. Free Agents. In cases like Chythraul's where the player is gone for a whole month, this pool of individual duelists can be contracted to compete for a team during that absence period. There are a lot of teams with one, two, or more members who simply aren't dueling at all for whatever individual reasons. I can see keeping the "3 chances" clause through the tournament to make roster adjustments.

I actually suggested a "Burdened Mule" trophy (or something better named) for the duelist that earns the largest percentage of their team's points. Wherein, here it would be 100% Xanth.

I think it might be neat to have other 'trophies' for Hydra 2... and maybe not all good. (Most points lost in a week?) Though I guess you have to have a particular sense of humor to enjoy being the best at being the worst for a time period.

I've spoken with one of the Coordinators. We'll see how this season ends and next season we'll look at Achievements and the sport having its own folder like Inter-Gender and TdR.

[Goldglo]

Remember, too, with the monopoly, teams can only earn it (currently) if they win titles during the tournament. Basically, for DoS/DoF, all standing title holders (ex. Matt, Candy) would have had to retire their titles and try to win them back or have a teammate win them in order to get the monopoly bonus. And, for example, in DoF, retiring a title brings with it a challenge-penalty which would make getting the monopoly even more difficult for the retiree. To add one more wrench into the works, retiring a title usually means that title going up for grabs in a tournament - that tournament may or may not fall into the Hydra Cup timeframe which could make obtaining the monopoly impossible.

As things stand, the monopoly's extremely difficult to achieve at best, outright impossible at worst.

There are 37 characters in the first Season of Hydra. that is a lot of duels to track and calculate. I initially let characters/players choose what duels are for Hydra simple to give them the option. Like say a duelist hits a cold streak, nothing but losses. This can heavily impact the teams points and place undue burden on the others.

Such is life, though. Sometimes you're cold and sometimes you're hot. Look at TDL/IFL or the Tour de Rhydin or the InterGender Wars for numerous examples (heck, just look at my own personal records) of where sometimes, you just go cold and have to deal. If you're cold, you could duel under an alt (if you have one) until you work your way out of it. Not everyone has alts, I realize, but it'd be one possible way to try and work through the situation.

As far at the trophy ideas, I like it. I hope more than just "MVP" is given out for this season - as Jake's player wrote in another thread, someone can be crowned MVP due to having the most personal points but also have done more harm than good for their team overall.

There are a bunch of different awards that could be given out for this competition (to recognize both good and not-so-good accomplishments).

--Matt

[Sylus Kurgen]

Agreed with both Mur and Candy on both their monopoly opinions. On one side, everyone waiving grace period at the start of the tournament to give other teams shot at the monopoly would be great. But Candy's suggestion would probably gain the tournament even more teams if the monopoly wasn't used all together. Focusing more on nightly duels + tournaments + challenges could be enough.

What about reducing team roster to 5 and instead of Monopoly, it goes to a Majority. If a team holds the majority of titles in a sport?



And Candy has been tracking individual performance, I may look at what she's doing for next year to see how MVP works. That way the whole system is better able to gauge who might truly deserve the award.

[Seirichi]

Agreed with both Mur and Candy on both their monopoly opinions. On one side, everyone waiving grace period at the start of the tournament to give other teams shot at the monopoly would be great. But Candy's suggestion would probably gain the tournament even more teams if the monopoly wasn't used all together. Focusing more on nightly duels + tournaments + challenges could be enough.

What about reducing team roster to 5 and instead of Monopoly, it goes to a Majority. If a team holds the majority of titles in a sport?

That'd be pretty slick. Could also add a sort of "king of the mountain" bonus. That way it'd force other teams to challenge ASAP for titles to try and grab away the monopoly. Though I could only see it useful in renegade DoS situations and DoF for new opal grabbers.

[Harris]

Xanth is a total boss. I've been not so secretly rooting for him this whole tournament.

I'm totally just chiming in to agree with this. Xanth is a boss.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Xanth is a total boss. I've been not so secretly rooting for him this whole tournament.

I'm totally just chiming in to agree with this. Xanth is a boss.

I think we all agree that Xanth is a beast.

[Rachael Blackthorne]

I am for the idea that if a player signs their character(s) up for Hydra, then they are in it for each and every match that they fight during the duration of the event and they should take all of the hits and bonuses that come with dueling under all of the tournament rules. If a dueler is allowed to cherry pick and choose what counts over what doesn't count match wise, then why are they fighting in the event to begin with?

One of the sticking points for me during the last InterGender War was duelers who dueled their same gender in order to preserve their win/loss ratio for dueling the opposite gender. That in effect was the same as in Hydra saying a duel was non-Hydra, just to protect the team records.

Bounties are only effective in a target rich environment. If the targets decide to remove themselves from the playing field, then the bounty is effectively rendered null and void for all of the other players involved.

[Dietrich]

It would be nice if there was a way to get new people or people that didn't sign up for a team involved. I agree with Matt, the assigning of points by freelancers could be exploited.

But would it be possible to have a Mini- Hydra? Like if I duel someone from a team and win I get a point. At the end of the tourney whoever of the singles with the most points gets a trophy or something. It would give those not on a team a chance to win something.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Bounties are only effective in a target rich environment. If the targets decide to remove themselves from the playing field, then the bounty is effectively rendered null and void for all of the other players involved.

Since I instituted the "Bounty" on Sunday the 22nd there have been 13 duels involving Beat Down, only 3 of those are from my mini-brawl on Wednesday.

Meanwhile, you have not fought anyone in Beat Down since King on the 13th.

Beat Down has been out dueling despite the bounty, but few are taking advantage of it. Bounties are meant to encourage aggressive duel seeking. Not sitting back and waiting on others to accept matches. I understand characters have a sport preference and will attend that specific sport more often than others, but the numbers are still indicative that few are taking advantage of the current bounty. And Beat Down will get a chance to retaliate here shortly.

Don't white (whine/write) about another team then be a complete chicken when that team is out in force.