Hydra Cup OOC Rules

The Second Best Dueling Event of the Year!

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Hydra Cup OOC Rules

Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Since a few have asked about what limitations there are for teams when it comes to things like alternate characters, I've decided to post this a few days early.

1. Each player is limited to 2 characters but only 2 characters on a team may be from the same player.

2. Participation in all 3 sports is not required to earn points, characters and players on a team may play to their dueling strengths in terms of sport choice.

3. DON'T BUG ME FOR POINT UPDATES.

4. If there is an error with point values in updated standings, PM me and I will go back and check.

5. While unofficial, this competition will follow all standardized rules associated with regular dueling, SoA, UTOC, and all other Official rulings where applicable.

6. Have fun.

7. Duel Well.

8. Tell a story.
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Post by Goldglo »

For the record, I think this competition is cool and I'm vastly appreciative of Sylus' player for coming up with this concept and for being willing to run a long-term event for other players.

Regarding the IC rules, I have some questions/comments below, simply for clarification/consideration:

For this clause: "Bonus Points Incentive
If at any point in the competition a team manages to secure All Challengeable Titles within any given sport, that team will earn a point value equal to total points accrued for each duelist."

The way I'm reading that is, 'if members of Team X acquire all titles open for Challenge in a given sport, they accomplish the incentive'. Assuming that's a correct reading (which it may not be)...

...with a 7-person max roster size, it'll be impossible to accomplish that incentive in Duel of Swords, correct? DoS has 8 challengable titles:
1) Overlord
2) Barony of Seaside
3) Barony of Battlefield Park
4) Barony of Old Market
5) Barony of Dockside
6) Barony of Dragonsgate
7) Barony of Old Temple
8) Barony of New Haven

The incentive is reachable, though in DoF (5 challengable titles, all Opals) and DoM (4 challengable titles, all Keepers). Did I get that right, or did I totally misunderstand?

Also, regarding points - if I'm reading correctly, duelers can gain/lose both team points and personal points in a given duel. For instance, if two Hydra Cup participants duel, a win = 1 Team Point & 5 Personal Points for the duel's victor and -1 Team Point & -3 Personal Points for the loser. Did I get that right?

If a dueler wins a duel against someone not on another team, they get 1 team-point and 0 personal points? Similarly, losing a duel against someone not on another team loses 1 team point and 0 personal points?

Also, if I'm reading correctly, if someone defends say, a Baron's title, they get 75 points?

For the 25/50/75/100 point bonuses, are those dueler-specific points only? Understanding there's a desire to give loads of points to the 'champions' of a sport, since this is only a 1-cycle competition, I think these high-point bonuses are really going to skew things.

For instance, let's take the 100 point bonus. Remember, the ArchMage and Diamond can only be won by tournament - for better or worse, if someone competing in the Hydra Cup wins, they're getting a crapton of points for 1 night of great dueling. In order to match that point total, someone would have to win 20 duels (without losing) against Hydra Cup competition. Personally, as far as the Hydra Cup competition goes, I think winning 20 duels against other competitors is a greater feat than winning a tournament.

The Overlord's a slightly different case since it's a challengable title, but in that situation it's nearly worse, because someone who wins either 1 duel or 2 duels (in a best of 3 situation) again gets highly rewarded for a single night's efforts and receives as many points as someone else who'd have to go 20-0 to equal those points.

Lastly on this topic and leaving DoM aside (since you can challenge for titles from Enchanter at 2WoL onward), these large bonuses seem designed to reward the higher-ranked characters. Again, I think a dueler winning loads of duels (especially lower-ranked duelers), for purposes of the Hydra Cup, should be rewarded moreso than a higher ranked dueler winning or defending a title. Consistency & winning over a long period of time trumps 1-night of dueling in my mind.

Finally, on the registration front, if the competition is "open to all duelists who want to enter", does a dueler need to be on a team to compete? Or can they enter as a solo 'free agent' of sorts? I'm thinking of a situation where there are, say, 6 seven-dueler teams registered and there are not enough people to make a 7th team, can those 'extra' people participate on their own?

--Matt
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Goldglo wrote:For the record, I think this competition is cool and I'm vastly appreciative of Sylus' player for coming up with this concept and for being willing to run a long-term event for other players.

Regarding the IC rules, I have some questions/comments below, simply for clarification/consideration:

For this clause: "Bonus Points Incentive
If at any point in the competition a team manages to secure All Challengeable Titles within any given sport, that team will earn a point value equal to total points accrued for each duelist."

The way I'm reading that is, 'if members of Team X acquire all titles open for Challenge in a given sport, they accomplish the incentive'. Assuming that's a correct reading (which it may not be)...

...with a 7-person max roster size, it'll be impossible to accomplish that incentive in Duel of Swords, correct? DoS has 8 challengable titles:
1) Overlord
2) Barony of Seaside
3) Barony of Battlefield Park
4) Barony of Old Market
5) Barony of Dockside
6) Barony of Dragonsgate
7) Barony of Old Temple
8) Barony of New Haven

The incentive is reachable, though in DoF (5 challengable titles, all Opals) and DoM (4 challengable titles, all Keepers). Did I get that right, or did I totally misunderstand?

Also, regarding points - if I'm reading correctly, duelers can gain/lose both team points and personal points in a given duel. For instance, if two Hydra Cup participants duel, a win = 1 Team Point & 5 Personal Points for the duel's victor and -1 Team Point & -3 Personal Points for the loser. Did I get that right?

If a dueler wins a duel against someone not on another team, they get 1 team-point and 0 personal points? Similarly, losing a duel against someone not on another team loses 1 team point and 0 personal points?

Also, if I'm reading correctly, if someone defends say, a Baron's title, they get 75 points?

For the 25/50/75/100 point bonuses, are those dueler-specific points only? Understanding there's a desire to give loads of points to the 'champions' of a sport, since this is only a 1-cycle competition, I think these high-point bonuses are really going to skew things.

For instance, let's take the 100 point bonus. Remember, the ArchMage and Diamond can only be won by tournament - for better or worse, if someone competing in the Hydra Cup wins, they're getting a crapton of points for 1 night of great dueling. In order to match that point total, someone would have to win 20 duels (without losing) against Hydra Cup competition. Personally, as far as the Hydra Cup competition goes, I think winning 20 duels against other competitors is a greater feat than winning a tournament.

The Overlord's a slightly different case since it's a challengable title, but in that situation it's nearly worse, because someone who wins either 1 duel or 2 duels (in a best of 3 situation) again gets highly rewarded for a single night's efforts and receives as many points as someone else who'd have to go 20-0 to equal those points.

Lastly on this topic and leaving DoM aside (since you can challenge for titles from Enchanter at 2WoL onward), these large bonuses seem designed to reward the higher-ranked characters. Again, I think a dueler winning loads of duels (especially lower-ranked duelers), for purposes of the Hydra Cup, should be rewarded moreso than a higher ranked dueler winning or defending a title. Consistency & winning over a long period of time trumps 1-night of dueling in my mind.

Finally, on the registration front, if the competition is "open to all duelists who want to enter", does a dueler need to be on a team to compete? Or can they enter as a solo 'free agent' of sorts? I'm thinking of a situation where there are, say, 6 seven-dueler teams registered and there are not enough people to make a 7th team, can those 'extra' people participate on their own?

--Matt
Good points Matt, and I apologize for not getting to this sooner but I'll do my best to answer them.

I hope to make the Hydra Cup a yearly event, so there are going to be points within this first run that can only be addressed by hosting it.

Your first Point
The incentive is reachable, though in DoF (5 challengable titles, all Opals) and DoM (4 challengable titles, all Keepers). Did I get that right, or did I totally misunderstand?
You didn't misunderstand. That incentive is awarded to any team who manages to monopolize the titles in a sport. From a personal stand point, I don't see it happening in the first tournament (BUT I'M ROOTING FOR IT AND ANY STORY LINES IT FOSTERS!!!!!) And that's an easy last minute adjustment.

With that, I'll address two of your other points:
Also, regarding points - if I'm reading correctly, duelers can gain/lose both team points and personal points in a given duel. For instance, if two Hydra Cup participants duel, a win = 1 Team Point & 5 Personal Points for the duel's victor and -1 Team Point & -3 Personal Points for the loser. Did I get that right?

If a dueler wins a duel against someone not on another team, they get 1 team-point and 0 personal points? Similarly, losing a duel against someone not on another team loses 1 team point and 0 personal points?
Personal Points are the total points a duelist accrues on their own. Team Points are gained and deducted by duel result, i.e. win or lose. Personal Points are NEVER deducted, these are like a High Score screen at the end of the game. Duelist with the Highest Scoreis MVP.

A Non-Hydra Win = 1 point. A Non-Hydra Loss = 1 point.

A Hydra Win = 5 points. A Hydra Loss = 3. This is not to encourage other duelists to seek out only Hydra Competitors, though I am sure that may become a majority of matches as seen with similar situations in the past. For the Tactful, Non-Competitors are safer duels being low risk, low reward.

Ex: Duelist A is a Swordsman in the competition and their choices are a Commoner not in the competition, or a Grand-Master and a Warlord who are. A prudent duelist would opt for the Commoner if they feel unsure about dueling the other two.
Finally, on the registration front, if the competition is "open to all duelists who want to enter", does a dueler need to be on a team to compete? Or can they enter as a solo 'free agent' of sorts? I'm thinking of a situation where there are, say, 6 seven-dueler teams registered and there are not enough people to make a 7th team, can those 'extra' people participate on their own?
You and I spoke about needing to design team member limits to prevent any one team from railroading the others within the competition. Even if a team manages to say, obtain all 4 Keeper titles, or all 5 Opals, any of the other teams can retaliate and challenge. I'll admit that I had a mental misfire where DoS is concerned as from my own experiences with Swords, most wait for the WLT for the OL shot where the OL can't pull any political stunts. Again this is fairly easy to fix by allowing 8 to be the team member cap.

I chose 5 and 7 to both allow ease for tracking points, and like I said to keep any other team from simply running away with points too greatly.

Also, if I'm reading correctly, if someone defends say, a Baron's title, they get 75 points?

For the 25/50/75/100 point bonuses, are those dueler-specific points only? Understanding there's a desire to give loads of points to the 'champions' of a sport, since this is only a 1-cycle competition, I think these high-point bonuses are really going to skew things.
A duelist within the competition who defends a title gains the points the challenger would have been awarded. Which would increase their team standings. I couldn't list a bunch of points for attaining the challenge ranks without offering equal compensation to those who fight to defend their stations. Getting the points their usurper would have had felt fair.

The 25/50/75/100 bonus points are Team Points only, not Personal Points.

I know I haven't answered all of your points, but its just before 5am..and I need sleep. I'll answer the rest before registration begins.
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Post by Candy Hart »

Sylus Kurgen wrote: You and I spoke about needing to design team member limits to prevent any one team from railroading the others within the competition. Even if a team manages to say, obtain all 4 Keeper titles, or all 5 Opals, any of the other teams can retaliate and challenge. I'll admit that I had a mental misfire where DoS is concerned as from my own experiences with Swords, most wait for the WLT for the OL shot where the OL can't pull any political stunts. Again this is fairly easy to fix by allowing 8 to be the team member cap.

I chose 5 and 7 to both allow ease for tracking points, and like I said to keep any other team from simply running away with points too greatly.
Does this mean the cap is now eight?
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Post by Jake »

I can't say I've run the numbers, but my impression is that the points awarded for title challenges seem high.

A title win (or three) pretty much overpowers any points earned in regular dueling. Such that regular dueling would wind up serving only the purpose of tie-breaker.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Jake wrote:I can't say I've run the numbers, but my impression is that the points awarded for title challenges seem high.

A title win (or three) pretty much overpowers any points earned in regular dueling. Such that regular dueling would wind up serving only the purpose of tie-breaker.
I realize they are a bit high.

Panther's Claw Tournament is 25pts + Points Per Duel + Round Advancement Points + Entry Points (Each team member gets points just for entering the tournament). This means duelists have a 37pt minimum and a 57pt maximum depending on who they face throughout the tournament. (based on a 5 round tournament though I know they are more around the 6-8 range)

That equation is the same for the Talon.

Ring of Klytus is 25pts + Win/Loss points because it is awarded for a high win percentage during regular dueling so in essence of the Lower Ranked Points, RoK is worth more than the tournaments. 25 + Total Points for the Cycle.

WLT and AMT are 50pts + Win/Loss Points + Round Advancement + Entry Points. 67pt minimum and an 82pt maximum. The difference in points between the max value for WLT/Talon is 17pts.

Baron/Opal/Keeper are a Flat-Rate 75pts to both Challenger and Defender. One gets the 75 by toppling the current holder, or by denying the challenger the win.

Points for Overlord and Archmage are same as with Baron/Opal/Keeper. A flat 100pts. Yes this means that the winner of the WLT who opts for the OL Challenge has a Earned Point Potential of 150 + Win/Loss points, same with Archmage. However they still have to win the challenge and the current OL is one tough cookie.

The 100pts for OL are open to anyone able to challenge. Same with Archmage (Since I remember reading Mur mention AM is now able to be challenged).

The DQ's point value is based on the fact that the prize IS the Daimond Rank. Though I have not participated in the last 2 DQ's, I remember they generally have a large tournout so there is a larger field to fight through.

To go with that, I have mentioned before there will be weeks, randomly chosen, that offer DOUBLE POINTS. This means that a regular duel against a Hydra competitor would be worth 10pts and 2 against non. Deduction values would stay the same. So 10 for a win -3 for a loss. 2 for a win -1 for a loss.

I have also scheduled dates with Point Challenges that test Duelist knowledge of the sport histories. These are non-combat points if a team has a member who may not be the best duelist, but is certainly the better student of Duel Histories. (Easter Egg Spoiler).

There will be surprises through out the whole thing to keep everyone on their toes and grants all entries an equal opportunity.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Hydra Cup Revised


This is the set up I'm going to stick with. Not going to make any other changes. However if precedent occurs during Hydra 1.0 I will note them and make the appropriate revisions to Hydra 2.0 next season. This is the first iteration, nothing will be perfect and as with anything, there is always a loophole and SOMEONE will find it.


Also...

On Thursday June 28th there will be a new addition to our household. Michael Sullivan. So I'm going to have a newborn in my home the opening weeks of the tournament. Because of this I'm going to need some help just in case RL has to take over.

Is there person(s) who would like to help me with monitoring the weekly points? I all ready have an excel file created with functions to auto-add the points for the week so its just a matter of updating them each week. Calculate for the current week and input the data. My hope is to put out Points Awarded and Points Deducted each week so teams can see how each is doing overall.
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Post by DUEL Veritas »

I'll be glad to help.

Yes, I know, I'm also in the tournament, but I promise that there is no conflict of interest, since the callers are very diligent in keeping track of win/loss records, so anyone who wishes to check my work against those records is of course more than welcome to do so.
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Post by Goldglo »

I'm willing to help, too.

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Post by Kalamere »

I'm not sure what kind of logic you have built into your excel sheet, but might I suggest making it a google doc instead?

You could make it world readable for people to see the stats at any time and grant individual write access to those willing to help out. Basically, a lot of the benefits you would get from setting up a website like we use for DoS Madness, but without all the back end code and design work.

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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Kalamere wrote:I'm not sure what kind of logic you have built into your excel sheet, but might I suggest making it a google doc instead?

You could make it world readable for people to see the stats at any time and grant individual write access to those willing to help out. Basically, a lot of the benefits you would get from setting up a website like we use for DoS Madness, but without all the back end code and design work.

~Kal
Sounds cool Kal, but I have zero experience using google doc, so there'd be a learning curve there. For right now the excell sheet is a lot of SUMs just input the new data for the week and it calculates the end total. Haven't even touched team win percentages or anything like that.

Thanks for the offers of help Matt and Veritas, definitely going to keep it in mind. I asked Cor to speak with the callers about making notations in their duel reports on what duels are what so I know that will be a HUGE help in tracking points. I also know that each team will no doubt be tracking their own points to keep our math on track.

Taking in the different suggestions from this thread and different discussions I've had, I want to say that I've done MY best to balance out the points to where Low and High rank have equal chances and truly hope my revision only increases the fun for everyone. Keeping the tournament fun is my biggest priority, I don't want anyone to feel burned out on dueling.
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Post by Kalamere »

It works pretty much just like excel =) I don't think it can do macros (though I've never tried to do them, so maybe it can) but it has most of the standard functions you would use in excel and the syntax is even the same for all the ones I've tried.

There is a feature to upload an existing doc and it will convert it for you. This doesn't always work well, especially with embedded functions, but you might give that a shot and see if it works out of the box for you.

Assuming you have a google account already (and if not, it's quick to create) just go to: docs.google.com click "Create" and select spreadsheet. When done use the blue "Share" button over in the top right to let folks in. If you want assistance you can send me the spreadsheet (with a rough explanation of what you're hoping to make it do) and I can play with it for you.

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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

I won't be home until Saturday night, Sunday Morning so if you want to have a swing at it Kal, I'm all for it. Just let me know where to send stuff. You have my AIM and that also forwards to me cell even if I'm offline.
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Post by Kalamere »

So, I have to admit I am late reading through all this. The premise of houses doesn't fit Kal, who has always been much more of a loner as a character. Now that I'm really reading them while trying to think of how best to help you code the doc for score tracking though... well, I've discovered I have some questions / comments.

Rules are set for the season and that's perfectly fine. These are just things I'd ask you to consider for next year if you really go forward to make this an annual event, or which I think need clarification
The Rules wrote:Winner of the WLT who challenges for OL will receive 15 points for the overall challenge + 1 point for each round, up to 10, the duel lasts should they win. If the Current OL defends and is a Hydra Cup particpant, the OL instead earns these points as a Defense Point Bonus. This same bonus applies to the winner of the AMT.
2 Questions / comments on this.

1.) You only mention the WLT winner who challenges for overlord. What about other OL challenges? I'm assuming they fall into this as well, but wanted to check.

2.) Bonus pointed per round of duel.. this is a two part question actually.
a.) Why? I don't understand why a longer duel is in some way more valuable. Wouldn't it be better to give the bonus based on winning point differential?
b.) This greatly incentivizes the best of three challenge format, keeping in mind that a single duel format is an available option and is exclusively up to the challenged to decide.

Point B actually applies to all DoS based challenges... as well, what happens in the case of an intercession? DoS has a number of wild challenge rules that don't neatly fall into the point scheme of the game.
Sylus wrote:Personal Points are the total points a duelist accrues on their own. Team Points are gained and deducted by duel result, i.e. win or lose. Personal Points are NEVER deducted, these are like a High Score screen at the end of the game. Duelist with the Highest Scoreis MVP.
I get the high score thing and, while that's cool and interesting to track, I don't think it makes for a good MVP selection. You can actually do more harm to your team than good and still get the MVP then. That seems wrong.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

Kalamere wrote:So, I have to admit I am late reading through all this. The premise of houses doesn't fit Kal, who has always been much more of a loner as a character. Now that I'm really reading them while trying to think of how best to help you code the doc for score tracking though... well, I've discovered I have some questions / comments.

Rules are set for the season and that's perfectly fine. These are just things I'd ask you to consider for next year if you really go forward to make this an annual event, or which I think need clarification
The Rules wrote:Winner of the WLT who challenges for OL will receive 15 points for the overall challenge + 1 point for each round, up to 10, the duel lasts should they win. If the Current OL defends and is a Hydra Cup particpant, the OL instead earns these points as a Defense Point Bonus. This same bonus applies to the winner of the AMT.
2 Questions / comments on this.

1.) You only mention the WLT winner who challenges for overlord. What about other OL challenges? I'm assuming they fall into this as well, but wanted to check.

2.) Bonus pointed per round of duel.. this is a two part question actually.
a.) Why? I don't understand why a longer duel is in some way more valuable. Wouldn't it be better to give the bonus based on winning point differential?
b.) This greatly incentivizes the best of three challenge format, keeping in mind that a single duel format is an available option and is exclusively up to the challenged to decide.

Point B actually applies to all DoS based challenges... as well, what happens in the case of an intercession? DoS has a number of wild challenge rules that don't neatly fall into the point scheme of the game.
Sylus wrote:Personal Points are the total points a duelist accrues on their own. Team Points are gained and deducted by duel result, i.e. win or lose. Personal Points are NEVER deducted, these are like a High Score screen at the end of the game. Duelist with the Highest Scoreis MVP.
I get the high score thing and, while that's cool and interesting to track, I don't think it makes for a good MVP selection. You can actually do more harm to your team than good and still get the MVP then. That seems wrong.
Thanks for catching my error Kal. In the Monopoly Incentive it states that the point bonus is based on the rounds of the FINAL duel in the challenge. I thought I had made that part of the text with the other challenge sections, my mistake. The points being in the Final duel allows the format to be either Bo3 or Single duel. However, if the defender is also in the tournament they have a strategic advantage here because successful defense means the points go to the titleholder. This then gives the defender the option , how many points do they want to risk?

I do want to make this an annual thing and as stated in my previous post, I knew I wouldn't catch all of the loopholes and skewed sections. But I can mark them down as they occur and make appropriate corrections for the next time. Random had an issue with this in his Tour de Rhydin and finding the balance between what do I correct and what do I leave as is becomes a major factor.
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