Challenge for Earth

Neo Eternity · Post by **Neo Eternity** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:52 pm

The vigilant adventurer part of me has been itching to make this challenge for the past thirty days, so here I am. Chythraul Cubukulu, I challenge you for the Tower of Earth.

I don't know how available Mur is to validate this, but if he's not around, I would ask the community to trust me that this is valid, or correct me if I've messed up.

DUEL Tass · Post by **DUEL Tass** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:27 pm

As I was the last to challenge, and that challenge did take place on the 28th of November, it has been more than 30 days since this tower, or this keeper, has been challenged.

Neo Eternity · Post by **Neo Eternity** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:34 pm

I was hoping Mur would show up to make this more officially official, but this will do. With Tass to back me up, I'll render this challenge valid. Thank you, Tass.

Chythraul The Vile · Post by **Chythraul The Vile** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:01 pm

(Hello, I look forward to the challenge although I am going out of town for a wedding so I do not even have time to post an IC response until Monday the 9th. Sorry for any inconvenience! )

Corlanthis · Post by **Corlanthis** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:31 pm

Seriously? This is a blatant violation of the Duel of Magic's rules.

Something I"d have hoped you'd have a little more respect for, Neo, given your position.

If your Assistant Coordinator is too busy to bother validating the Challenge, then maybe it's time to appoint a new one. But in the meantime, this is a farce.

I have no idea who Chythrual is, but were I him, I'd laugh your messages off the cork until you decided to adhere to your own sport's regulations.

Neo Eternity · Post by **Neo Eternity** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:23 pm

I was afraid this would happen, though not quite like this.

If anyone simply doesn't feel comfortable with me validating my own challenge, that's one thing, and just cause for me to rescind. I wouldn't even be angry. Disappointed, sure. Angry, no. But this? This makes me angry.

It's outright offensive for you, a fellow coordinator, no less, to accuse me of breaking the very rules that I am charged with upholding and maintaining. Not only that, but your claim is wrong. Nowhere in the rules for any of the three sports does it say that when a coordinator renders challenge, that it may not be self-validated.

If you don't feel comfortable with me validating my own challenge, just say that. I'd gladly rescind; the community's faith in me has far greater priority than my dueling career, and I wouldn't mind to wait until either Mur returns or I find a new assistant. There's no need to attack my integrity, and I'm offended that you would do so.

In any case, I rescind my challenge.

Shadowlord · Post by **Shadowlord** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:35 pm

I'll have to chime in on this one. Neo has never displayed anything but the highest dedication and professionalism in his time as the Coordinator of Magic. I personally see no reason that this challenge is invalid in any way. Corlanthis, I have never wished any conflict with you, nor do I now, but I think you're severely out of line. What rules were broken here, specifically? I'll need harder evidence than a vitriolic claim on the boards, and I think most would agree.

In my opinion, Neo's challenge was in every way valid, and he displayed once more his professionalism when he asked for an outside opinion, which Tass provided. Noone who is an actively contributing and participating member in Magic has had any issues with this, so why does the Assistant Coordinator of Swords?

~Shadow

Corlanthis · Post by **Corlanthis** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:07 pm

Plain and simply, Coordinators do not self-validate. And since a Coordinator is required to validate the Challenge, he should have waited for Mur.

Let me be clear, I am not calling into question the Challenge's validity.

But the reason my reply is as outraged as it is, is that Neo knew better before he even issued the Challenge.

If Neo is willing to abuse his position here, then it opens a door that I do not wish to see opened. Coordinators have a fair amount of Authority over their sports, the inability to validate our own Challenges is a Check on that power and Neo just blatantly ran over it. So yes, I am more than a little upset.

Shadowlord · Post by **Shadowlord** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:17 pm

Corlanthis, I understand the conflict of interest you perceive, but it simply does not exist in this case. Neo took reasonable measures in preventing the appearance of corruption, in my opinion. You make it seem like he has tried something underhanded or deceitful, when all I see is a hardworking official who wished to issue challenge.

A sad day for the sport in any case, but Neo has my full support in this.

~Shadow

Pearl Luster · Post by **Pearl Luster** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:21 pm

I for one, am glad Corlanthis said something. From the moment Neo issued the challenge, the last line asking us to just trust him that it was valid has bothered me.

It does strike me as an abuse of power, intentional or not.

Shadowlord · Post by **Shadowlord** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:36 pm

I for one think a mountain was made of a molehill, and that a dedicated member of the community has been mischaracterized as willfully corrupt.

~Shadow

Lem DeAngelo · Post by **Lem DeAngelo** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:20 pm

Given the circumstances and the holiday season, I believe Neo made a fair decision. He informed the community of his request for the Assistant Coordinator to validate the challenge. The rules for challenge are available for everyone to see, and Neo's challenge appears to be valid to me. A full 7 days passed without anyone voicing concern before Neo validated his challenge. Personally, I find no fault in his action since he gave the community plenty of time to voice concern. The assistant coordinator was unable to officially validate the challenge, but the community did not voice any concerns with the challenge.

The rules have never been enforced to their strictest writing. For example, the rules currently state a Keeper must duel at least once per month or they will be stripped of their title. Traditionally, activity requirements always reflected regular duels and did not include tournament dueling. So according to the DoM rules and traditions, there are currently 2 Keepers that would be stripped of rank for not participating in a regular duel during December. I highly doubt that rule would be enforced due to many people being out of the realm during the holidays. Additionally, the rules should clarify what constitutes official activity (regular duels or tournament duels).

Also, how many times have tournaments started 15-30 minutes late in order to allow late entrants? That's not technically a rule being broken, but it's another case of precedence where the callers allowed for extenuating circumstances to change the course of events that should happen in a perfect tournament (everyone should pre-register, arrive early and start the tournament on time).

I'm a little disheartened at how this has turned out so far. The callers in all of the sports work hard to keep the rings open for the community, and the callers are often the ones who do not get to duel because they are always calling regular shifts, tournaments and challenges. The duels should be fun for all parties involved, not just an extra unpaid job for the callers. Yes, the rules should be followed as closely as possible but rules have always been slightly bent in the past, and I'm sure they will have to be bent in the future. Personally, I think this was a simple issue that could have had more attention in the 7 days that passed before Neo validated the challenge himself. Let's loosen up and duel.

DUEL Tass · Post by **DUEL Tass** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:44 pm

While I posted that I felt the challenge was ok to go, I am by no means allowed to say that it is valid. I have not been granted that permission by the administration.

With that said, I see both points to this discussion. Neo, being a coordinator, has issued challenge. By unwritten rule, that challenge needs to be validated by someone else. This someone else is *typically* the other coordinator for the sport. In times past, it might have also been the standings keeper (at least for DoS), as they are privy to the records.

No one else is given the right to validate the challenge (other than the administration themselves, but they tend to not get involved with the day-to-day unless an issue arises that they need to step in on).

Now.. at the time of the challenge, Mur was/is MIA and Neo was also the Standings Keeper (he had not, at that time, made the announcement (that I know of) that Lem was to take over the Standing Keeper position). In this instance, and with the little option left to him (and with the belief that the community would step in where things called into question), he did validate his own challenge.

After he did such, the community did call into question the validity of doing such.

While there were some (Pearl and others perhaps) that questioned the acceptance of Neo validating his own challenge, it was Cor who voiced the complaint, as Neo requested. As to why others did not speak before (to address Lem's concern) might be because at that time, there was still the possibility that Mur might validate the challenge. He did not.

Now my assessment on this (for what the old man's word is worth). This challenge can still be validated and sanctioned to proceed now that Lem is officially the Standings Keeper for DoM, so long as Lem does validate the challenge.

The issue of Mur being MIA is a topic for a different discussion, and one that should take place between the coordinators and the administration.

~Tass

MurOllavan · Post by **MurOllavan** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:47 pm

I apologize for not responding, as I missed Neo's request for me to speak up. I'm not really sure what the issue is, unless his challenge appears invalid. Anyone can look at old posts and see when he last challenged and when the tower was.

Rules say a coordinator, he is one. DoM rules don't include a self-validation clause because as I said above it doesn't take a genius to check. If anything you should trust him over me anyway. Neo may not be a good duelist, but he sure is honest.

Pearl Luster · Post by **Pearl Luster** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:48 pm

Sometimes the appearance and perception of impropriety does more harm than the actual improper act would do.

Neo may be a wonderful person who does amazing things for your little game here but as someone put into a position of even limited power this was poorly done. I would feel the same way if it was any of the coordinators in the other sports who had done the same thing. It seems more condenscending than professional to ask to be given blind trust as if it were your due just because you have standing in the community. As a relative newcomer I find that very off-putting actually.

The challenge may very well, and most likely is valid. I have no contention on that point, but as the party who issued the challenge, he should have had the patience to wait for someone else to validate the challenge.

And if there is not a rule against self validation of challenges, perhaps that is something that needs remedied.

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