What happened to Diplomacy?

[Lailie Youngblood]

While regrettably the DoS Supervisor stepped down from duty. There was no forum as to whom should replace this member. Instead it was chosen by the powers that be.

What about our rights as members to choose who governs our sport? I thought this community was built on diplomatic representation. If not, we're under nothing less than tyranny.

I would like to nominate myself as Duel of Swords Supervisor. And urge the community to support general election for who should succeed Billy as our Supervisor.

If the Duel of Swords is as democratic as the RhyDin Governor election protray, then why deprive the very population that decides it's own fate?

[G]

No offense, but the positions of Coordinators were never an elected or democratic position. They never have been even since the dueling forum was on AOL. The positions were always chosen by the powers in charge.

Since those in charge asked me if I was willing to take over as DoS Supervisor, I accepted. This was never a position where someone gets elected to.

Also, the Rhydin Governor election was an IC event, not an OOC position. The Governor has no real power, never did, never will. It's up to the players themselves to choose whether or not to listen to the Governors "rules" if any should be made.

If you honestly believe that this community is a tyranny because of my selection as DoS Supervisor, then the Dueling Forum as a whole, as well as the Red Dragon in has always been such. As all positions in all those forums have been appointed, not elected.

[Grayson]

Dammit G-mun, you beat me to it.

For what it's worth, G's player is one of the most qualified people to fill this role and is one of the most knowledgable people I know when it comes to the rules, history and traditions of DoS.

But I think most importantly, it's an OOC position, not a story-line that people get to choose to participate in.

I'm pretty bummed that something happened that Billy felt the need to step down and step away. But G's player was asked to fill this role by the other officials who run this game, and I support their decision.

[Lailie Youngblood]

DoS Supervisor governs matters OOC and IC as long as they remain under the Arena roof. Which by all right allows members and players OOC and IC to vote on who they believe properly advocates the ebb the flow of it's best interests.

I still support the community to petition for a vote before accepting any governing acts instituted by G'nort.

Be fair. Allow us to choose.

[G]

DoS Supervisor governs matters OOC and IC as long as they remain under the Arena roof. Which by all right allows members and players OOC and IC to vote on who they believe properly advocates the ebb the flow of it's best interests.

I still support the community to petition for a vote before accepting any governing acts instituted by G'nort.

Be fair. Allow us to choose.

If you can show me precedence in the dueling forum where a supervisor for any position was chosen by popular vote, I might consider the possibility of perhaps thinking about maybe agreeing to whether or not this should or should not be placed in a popular voting situation.

But seriously. I'm sorry, but the positions for forum supervisors are up to the chief administrator in charge of the Rings of Honor website. The Dueling forum on AOL was the same way. There has never been any situations where it was up to the player base as to who should be in charge of any forum.

In any case, I am going to remain the Duel of Swords supervisor. You, however, do have a choice. It is up to you as to what you will do.

[Lailie Youngblood]

If you can show me precedence in the dueling forum where a supervisor for any position was chosen by popular vote, I might consider the possibility of perhaps thinking about maybe agreeing to whether or not this should or should not be placed in a popular voting situation.

But seriously. I'm sorry, but the positions for forum supervisors are up to the chief administrator in charge of the Rings of Honor website. The Dueling forum on AOL was the same way. There has never been any situations where it was up to the player base as to who should be in charge of any forum.

In any case, I am going to remain the Duel of Swords supervisor. You, however, do have a choice. It is up to you as to what you will do.

The past is the past. The present is now. Show me how these old stipulations relate to the current.

The future holds our fate.

As a player driven community I believe it is within our right as not only players but supporters of this community to elect whom we believe best suits the position.

Which is why I am asking for election. Without freedoms we are lambs in line for the slaughter house. Without choice. without a voice. I ask the rest of you, is this how you wish to be governed?

Prop 31! General Election for DoS Supervisor!

[Jake]

As a player driven community I believe it is within our right as not only players but supporters of this community to elect whom we believe best suits the position.

Which is why I am asking for election.

It would be more correct to call this a volunteer-driven community.

Each of the people who serve the forum in some role (caller, standings keeper, forums moderator, forum leader, website developer/maintainer, etc.) does so because of their love of the sport, and the desire to give something back to support this forum that we participate in.

This site's upkeep is paid for by people who love dueling. There is no paid advertising to support it. There are no subscription fees for the members. It's all gratis of the efforts of a relatively small group of people.

How does one become a sport supervisor? Yes, it's true that they get appointed by staff, but that's only part of the equation. It's not just "I dub thee supervisor of DoS". Rather, the first step is usually "hey, we need to fill this role. Do you feel like you can fulfill its responsibilities? Are you able to commit the time it will take to do this job? And what's more, do you want the job?"

Again, this is all volunteer effort. No gets paid. No one gets compensated for spending 2-3 hours calling duels. No one gets a check for writing code to support functionality. No one gets kudos for moderating the forums (and quickly cleaning them of the porn/spam posts).

You nominate yourself as DoS supervisor, and I have to ask what you've done for the forum (beyond partaking of its fruits)?

I am inferring you have a dispute with G. I don't know what it is, and further affirm that I have nothing against you. And G can well attest that I do not automatically side with him. However, G has been here for more than a decade volunteering his time. Calling duels. Managing callers. Contributing his time to keep things running.

If you'd like to offer yourself as supervisor, I'd ask you to state what qualifications you bring to the table? Why would you make a good supervisor? Why do you feel you'd be better than G? What service have you given the forum to earn our trust that you'd be a good supervisor?

And trust is a key word. Not all of the staff gets/got along. And some members of staff have been more successful than others, but ALL of them have contributed, have volunteered, have given of their time and skills to keep the forum alive and running.

Are you volunteering as a caller? Have you stepped forward in any other capacity to help the forum? If not, why would I trust you to be reliable, fair, or dedicated enough to be a good supervisor? It's a pain-in-the-ass job, with few rewards and even less thanks. It's a job that requires someone dedicated to stick with it, month after repetitive month. To put aside any biases they might have against other players and dedicate themselves to putting the forum before their own play. Are you prepared to do that?

And I'm not trying to discourage you from volunteering if you truly think you can contribute to the forum. One of the commonalities amongst almost all the staff is age. Most of us have been around for 10 years or more. We have families. We have kids. We have lives that demand more and more of our time every year.

The salvation of this forum depends upon a changing of the guard. Of bringing in new blood that can offer the time we older guard are finding harder and harder to give as the years go by.

I, for example, am 40+. I know that it's not my friends and colleagues that will come to join the forum. No, it's the friends and families of the teenagers and twenty-somethings that will bring in the new blood, and keep our forum alive.

And we're constantly hoping to see volunteers come forward from that new blood to replace us. To carry on the burden of keeping the forum fresh and alive. We're absolutely willing to pass the torch when there's someone there to take it.

And the first step is to volunteer.

[Corlanthis]

I have a couple of points I feel are worth mentioning.

The first off is that simply because one is popularly elected into a position, that doesn't make them qualified to perform the tasks required of said position.

The second is that (ignoring for a moment the argument of whether or not it's an OOC or IC position) none of the positions of "authority" within the Dueling venues are attained by popular vote (that I'm aware of), so why should this one be?

Those things aside, I see no problems with G being given the position. He's shown himself time and time again to be highly active within the community and to be a positive force. All the luck to him, I feel.

[Soerl Lute]

I agree 100% with Cor and Jake. When I first started calling a few months ago, G's player was there anytime I had a question, needed help, or felt overwhelmed with what's going on. I've been lingering in and out of the dueling venues for about seven years now. If Billy felt the need to leave, G is absolutely the best replacement, in my mind.

The other points have been brought up by everyone else, so I won't bother reiterating them.

[Karen Wilder]

Another point to be made here...

No Supervisor has ever been selected that wasn't a Caller, Assistant Supervisor or other member of the "behind the scenes" staff.

In almost every case, the person who became Supervisor had been part of the staff for 5+ years.

Why is that important? Because, to be a good Supervisor, you should know how all the other jobs are done. You should have worked with the previous Supervisor, so you can learn a bit about how things are done.

It's also important that the existing Community knows who you are... that they've seen you around, doing some kind of work in the Community.


As for the Supervisor having any strong IC powers... that's certainly not the case. The DoS Supervisor's IC duties include: "Hiring" Callers, adjucating situations that are not covered by the Rules and seeing to it that the Tournies are run on time.

That's it... Yes, technically the Supervisor can overrule the Baron's Council concerning a Challenge... but this has only happened twice that I can recall. And in both cases, the players involved chose to abide by the Council's ruling anyway.

And, as Jake said... This may be a player-oriented venue, it's still owned and opperated by volunteers.

P.S. You really don't want to be the Supervisor... It's a real tough and often thankless job.

[Napoleon Bonarat]

Jake put it best. But even if leadership was picked by the players (and not the people that pay for and/or donate time/expertise), G would still likely win. Why is that?

Take this however you want, but I'm reading this complaint and I'm thinking, "who the heck is Lailie Youngblood?" If the people that play here don't know who you are, how can you expect us to trust you and follow your vision?

G has been with the forum for a long time. I've watched him develop as a roleplayer and writer for many years. He's been a lifesaver for admin and duelers in TDL for which I, personally, will be eternally grateful for. He's devoted a lot of time, dealt with a lot of crap, and managed to still like this place enough to be invested in its growth and actively try things out to improve the environment and build numbers.

I don't say any of this to take away from our past (who will be sorely missed) or current volunteers. This was a good choice to make. G doesn't deserve this sort of pointless criticism; he deserves our support.

[Charlie Nausikaa]

This was a good choice to make. G doesn't deserve this sort of pointless criticism; he deserves our support.

Absolutely. The transition from Billy is going to be difficult for G. Billy's been such a monumental piece of this forum for so long. We should all be trying to find ways to make this easier on G and smoother for the forum.

The admin run this forum day-in and day-out. For privacy reasons and for the sake of getting things done, we don't know a lot of what happens behind the scenes. They do. They know who puts time and energy into the forum, who usually fulfills their responsibilities, who will be a choice that most the forum can live with. I'm sure all those things are taken into consideration.

[Sartan]

I think G's a great choice as Supervisor, but there was something else off topic I wanted to respond to.

But even if leadership was picked by the players (and not the people that pay for and/or donate time/expertise)

I strongly dislike the rationale that "We're paying for this so what we say goes." I personally feel like these are my games as much as anyone else's. I don't feel anyone is more or less entitled to them than the next player, and it really bothers me that "Because we're the ones shouldering the costs, what we say should be acceptable" would seem an okay rationale.

When the site first switched over in 2004, I raised the question about how we could donate to help offset costs and was pretty much told it was too much hassle and not to worry about it. Which is cool, I mean hey who's going to complain about that right? At the same time though, it bothered me then and continues to bother me now that I could have that held over my head. Once we left AOL, didn't the game stop belonging to any one person or any entity in particular? I really don't think it's fair to any of us to be told "Your opinion counts for less because we're the ones paying."

[Artemus Kurgen]

The salvation of this forum depends upon a changing of the guard. Of bringing in new blood that can offer the time we older guard are finding harder and harder to give as the years go by.

I remember a couple years ago when I first started talking to Xenograg's player, he told me this. And I have known it to be true.

I have volunteered what time I have had available to officiating and have even discussed the rules, if in an OOC format with several other players on some aspects that were at the time unclear. When the admin staff sent out flyers I was out hanging them around my dorm hall and campus.

The one thing all of this has taught me is that the RoH staff are not the only volunteers here. We are a volunteer community players and staff alike. If not for the players,the Admins would be sailing a ghost ship.

To put aside any biases they might have against other players and dedicate themselves to putting the forum before their own play. Are you prepared to do that?

This is the best question I have ever heard asked to someone seeking an official status within our community Jake. I can state with confidence that there are many among us who cannot do this. There are many who cannot put aside personal issues with a player to let everyone enjoy this place.

Now done with the long-winded intro, I hold nothing against G or Lailie's players. I want that to be known first and foremost. However, one of the questions about Billy's integrity that I remember having come up before in regards to G; though in whispers was favoritism.

I never saw it in Billy's case except in a few confusing moments where he was required to make a judgment call regarding a dispute between one of his friends and another player OOC. He stood by his friend despite the fact that a good majority of the community felt she was in the wrong; and the scrutiny began.


In regards to a situation like that, I have just one question for both G and Lailie's players. If required, could either of you set aside your friendships in order to make decisions for the game as a whole, even if they may hurt those relationships? If either of you can show me that you can make completely unbiased decisions and judge friends, family, and strangers alike no matter the expected backlash, I'll back your stances in this issue for whatever my words mean.

[Jake]

I think G's a great choice as Supervisor, but there was something else off topic I wanted to respond to.

But even if leadership was picked by the players (and not the people that pay for and/or donate time/expertise)

I strongly dislike the rationale that "We're paying for this so what we say goes." I personally feel like these are my games as much as anyone else's. I don't feel anyone is more or less entitled to them than the next player, and it really bothers me that "Because we're the ones shouldering the costs, what we say should be acceptable" would seem an okay rationale.

When the site first switched over in 2004, I raised the question about how we could donate to help offset costs and was pretty much told it was too much hassle and not to worry about it. Which is cool, I mean hey who's going to complain about that right? At the same time though, it bothered me then and continues to bother me now that I could have that held over my head. Once we left AOL, didn't the game stop belonging to any one person or any entity in particular? I really don't think it's fair to any of us to be told "Your opinion counts for less because we're the ones paying."

The one thing all of this has taught me is that the RoH staff are not the only volunteers here. We are a volunteer community players and staff alike. If not for the players,the Admins would be sailing a ghost ship.

Hmmm...

I think this is a misunderstanding.

Please don't think I was suggesting that because admin pays for the site's upkeep that this somehow makes this forum more "ours" than anyone else's. That wasn't the intent.

When I spoke of the volunteers, I was not referring exclusively to the admin folks.

I think it's fair to say that the admin folks shoulder a pretty fair share of the burden of keeping the forum running, but there are a great many volunteers that are contributing to the survival of RoH.

And in truth, as far as I know, the costs of site upkeep are being shouldered by only 1 or 2 people. The reason for that is not because people haven't offered/been willing to contribute, but because of the complications involved in tax reporting etc. that make it not worth the hassle. Or at least that's my perspective.

So, back to my primary point.

I did not refer to this as an "admin-driven" forum, but rather a "volunteer-driven" forum. And again, there are a lot of people that are volunteering their time in different ways to make the forum run smoothly. From the folks that call duels, to the folks that moderate the boards, to the folks that maintain the histories, to folks that write the code behind the website, to the folks the maintain the standings or Warlord rankings.

It's far and away a group effort. No one disputes that.

I won't go as far as saying that every person who comes in and duels is a volunteer, because they are primarily only being the beneficiary of the labor of others, but I *will* note that it's folks like Artemus and Rakeesh who even before they might have been a caller or forum moderator took it upon themselves to try and recruit new players. Or the folks that hang around and interact with the unrecognized faces, showing them the ropes. The folks that go out of their way to make newcomers feel welcome. These people too are volunteers that help contribute to the survival of RoH. In some ways perhaps they are some of the most important volunteers.

It IS true that a lot of discussion happens behind the scenes. That's not because what happens is "secret". Rather, anyone who's been part of a committee for any length of time knows that the larger the committee, the longer it takes to get anything done, and the less effective the committee becomes.

For this reason, not everything becomes a vote. Matt decided pretty much on his own (with perhaps the counsel of a couple of trusted colleagues like Kheldar or Jaycy) that DoF would try adopting the Fancy rules used by IFL.

This is about efficiency in action.

In order to keep things moving, good projects try to have an open ear to all input, but to keep the decision-making to a smaller, more effective, more responsive unit.

Input is always welcome. Via forum. Via PM. Via IM. Via email. Whatever the source, input, especially from newer/younger still enthusiastic players, is important. With that fresh perspective, we have the opportunity to see who the future leaders of our forum will be. But there are a lot of decisions that will still happen "behind closed doors". Again, not because it's a secret, but because that's more efficient for certain kinds of activity*.

* As an example...there's ALWAYS an open forum discussion when considering changes to the matrix of one of the sports, and the input of the players has (almost) always been sought to come up with a course of action.

Using Billy's departure as an example, it was important that a rapid replacement be made in order to keep DoS Madness on track. If we took the role of supervisor up as an all-forum vote, it could be weeks before DoS Madness could start, and all of the other functions Billy performed would also fall behind.

From the perspective of the average patron, are you more interested in DoS Madness? Or in who does the DoS Standings? Or what version of phpBB we run? Or in validating peer wins for challenges?

These latter items are all examples of things that benefit the player-base, but a big discussion of who does them isn't really all that fun, interesting or desirable for the majority of players.

It's important we have a DoS Supervisor. One who's fair, reliable, and can commit to the functions they need to perform. It's likewise important that we not dally in getting the role filled.

If Lailie, or anyone else, wants to contribute, wants to volunteer, great! The more the merrier. We could desperately use more callers. I know G is STILL trying to fill in some gaps.

We have a pathway to becoming a Standings Keeper, or a Supervisor, or even Forum Leader. And it starts with volunteering. In giving back to *OUR* community.

It's not a playground for just the admins who deign to allow others to play. By no measure is it that. It's our community. It's our game. Its success (or failure) depends upon *US*. And that's an all-inclusive US.