Suggestion: Rank Changes

[Farek]

I think the main flaw of this game is the disparity between the ranks. I'm no mathematician, but I am a gambler, and I'd be willing to bet that a Mage would lose to an apprentice 1/50 times, at best. The half-broken matrix and the extra spells make it way too easy.

My suggestion (Four steps):

1) Completely remove the Wizard rank

2) Bump Mage down to 15 WoL

3) Upon their first duel (or first duel of a new cycle) a 0-0-0 apprentice will state which of the extra spells they will obtain.

4) As the caster moves to Enchanter, Sorcerer, and Magician, they will take the remaining three spells. At Mage, they'll get NR or I.

Just a thought. Post any suggestions, criticism, whatever.

[MurOllavan]

I've always thought the same thing. The matrix is broken for rank vs underrank purposes, and is quite boring and stunts character's progress through DoM until they reach rank. Your idea is one I've always wondered about, though I would ask why give a choice? Arctic blast is the obviously the best spell to give apprentices, giving them a choice might not change the situation if they don't understand the matrix. All in all, I think it is correct to say that the changes would impact the game favorably.

[Gork292]

I concur. :>

[Dimitri]

I agree with both of ya.

[Deluthan]

Would this also help quell the lack of balance in the basic-8 matrix as well?

[Dracos]

Hey, I'd love a choice, to me, artic is an easily handled spell. And besides, as an apprentice, I've had little trouble beating mages, repeatedly. Now, it's not all the time, but I'm not that great of a dueler either. But sometimes one voice against doesn't count.

[Elijah]

I agree with the original post. I occasionaly try DoM and DoF for fun since I am primarily a Swordsie. I am actually working on an IC to move up in DoF and enjoy the atmosphere and the game there more and more now, finally 11 years later. DoM though, everytime I try the game, I get turned off. Its always been to top heavy favored for the higher ranks. When DoS first started, Fancies automatically gave you 0.5 points regardless of the move combo result. Obviously, that was one thing corrected to try to bring the game more into balance. DoM needs things done to bring it more into game balance.

[Gork292]

Would this also help quell the lack of balance in the basic-8 matrix as well?

If you mean it would remove perfect defense such as the shield after a wizard blades spell, yes. Arctic blast removes perfect defense. Having an extra spell would help prevent this from happening.

Someone who knows the game: "Okay I know this game and I'm going to armor after he mind whips and he can't do anything about it! Bwahahaha."
Someone totally new: "That ain't right. This game stinks, I'm outta here."

[Max Blue]

"Someone who knows the game: "Okay I know this game and I'm going to armor after he mind whips and he can't do anything about it! Bwahahaha."
Someone totally new: "That ain't right. This game stinks, I'm outta here."


Someone who knows the game: "Okay I know this game and I'm going to armor after he mind whips and he can't do anything about it! Bwahahaha."

Someone totally new and wants to learn: "Neat trick, i'll remember it."


Just throwing out a different way of thinking...

[Jake]

Perfect defense was certainly a problem back when there were only 6 Apprentice spells. I was under the impression that the inclusion of Foul Fog and Fear Touch had alleviated that problem. Not so?

[Gork292]

Foul Fog loses an advantage to Shield and Armor, and does nothing against Displacement. Fear Touch loses an advantage to shield, armor, and displacement. The only thing Fear touch beats is Foul Fog. So unfortunately, no.

[Farek]

The basic 8 is horribly broken as it is. Just last night, Vanion had no chance to beat Rhaine after round fourteen because he cast mage bolt and was down a full point. All Rhaine had to do was displace and she, at worst, scored a double advantage and still won.

There's something really wrong with that. Same thing goes for Armor and Sheld, that cannot lose after an opponent's mind whip and wizard blade, respectively.

I've held 5x more people to .5 or less in DoM in the last month than I have in DoS ever, and I've been playing DoS since 1997. Am I that much better in DoM than DoS? Absolutely not. The game is just easy to manipulate after familiarity with the matrix has been established.

[DUEL Topaz]

Patrons of the Duel of Magic,

We, the DoM staff, think that some valid concerns have been expressed and we are taking a look at the issue with particular attention to balancing the apprentice spells better. Please continue with the discussion and to bring forth suggestions.

DoM Coordinator

[Farek]

Making Arctic Blast part of the basic spell list has an indirect, positive bonus as well. It makes Foul Fog useful in apprentice fights. Now, I'm not going to spell out Foul Fog's column on the matrix, but it loses to a lot more than it beats at the basic level. As of right now, though, I believe that Foul Fog is just dead wood on the matrix.

[MurOllavan]

Wow, more interest than I thought would come. I'd just like to comment on a few of the developments.
Del
>>Would this also help quell the lack of balance in the basic-8 matrix as well?<< I would say yes, since most of the broken-ness of the appy matrix is the perfect defense. It ensures 1. leads stay that way, 2. that ties are more frequent, and 3. against players that don't know the matrix at all the advantage is an almost sure win.

Dracos
>>Hey, I'd love a choice, to me, artic is an easily handled spell. And besides, as an apprentice, I've had little trouble beating mages, repeatedly. Now, it's not all the time, but I'm not that great of a dueler either. But sometimes one voice against doesn't count.<<

Just proposing that AB is best for many reasons. I'm certaintly not saying that everyone doesn't have their own styles, or that people are too stupid to choose a spell for themselves. I guess were something like this implemented that would be a good thing to ...vote on. I just think I should explain those reasons so that people aren't stuck with a choice they wouldn't want if given all the information. In the same vein, I have the same argument that NR is overpowered vs Immo. I don't think that is as bad because the mages have all 4 adv. spells, and I have met a few people over the years(always been the minority) that duel quite well with it and like it as well. I've also seen people take Immo, hate it and not be able to change. Doesn't impede their progress since they're mages, however I've seen enchanters and even sorcerors without AB that wish they chose it. I always wondered if DoM's system of giving choice to the 4 spell selections impedes progress up the ranks from ench to wizard?? I believe it does a little, at least until someone gets up to 3 spells and if they take, R as first spell I know it does( that's what I did way back).


I have never dueled anyone who dueled with the app matrix successfully against a person with many adv spells, especially an NR mage, including myself(I was an app for 2 years a long time ago and the time spent was long probably because of my spell selection order of (R,G,MS,AB). I'd rather duel in swords against someone with infinite fancies and a thrust and high cut that do 2.5 points per hit. I think it would be easier to win than some app vs mages duels in DoM currently. I don't mean to say it's not possible, just completely unfair.

And for app vs app, it would reduce the absurdly painful amount of ties or cheap advantages coming from such defense. That's the first reason, that the main problem appears to be the perfect defense situation. AB is the only advanced spell that completely eliminates that problem.

I do know that MS comes close and that it would help a little vs immolation but later I describe how much more relevant a spell's results against NR are for someone who is getting a first addition to the matrix, and that G and R(DoM's FDis?) help the person who is being perfectly defended against prevent being damaged, thus helping to create null rounds without giving up an adv or point.
This last part with G and R doesn't help change the first and second problems I listed under the Del remark though since 0-0 rounds don't help if you're behind or about to tie. The part with MS reveals that AB is much better vs higher ranks, and that the attacks that hit AB would create threat and defense of threat cases where people in apprentice duels would attack more often (mainly mb/mw) rather than play it cheap, safe, and high-percentage. At least I mean to say that AB has a greater chance of effecting this change than MS does.

Arctic Blast also has a few other adv's that the other three do not. One, AB hits the two spells that destroy the FF/FT/D/S line of defense. Since it is those, especially the first two that give apps a fighting chance at all I think that is important to add. MS(the next best spell I can think to take) doesn't do this, only thing is it does hit immo...but so does everything else. AB hits the WB and does quite well against NR. It ties(mostly) or wins(1) against three of the advanced spells too, giving up only an advantage in exception. Thus, AB further helps a little more when a one adv. spell dueler is fighting higher rank of any level.

Easily handled? By MB,MW,FF. True, to some extent. This would however present the best threat against perfect defense and rank advantage, and would force the other app in a 8 move matrix duel to use mb,mw.... Then the circle is complete, people are out there attacking again and trying to stay one step ahead of someone. AB is crucial if what is wrong is perfect defense, and it would add a little more than other spells against upper ranks, especially against NR mages. I say that because Immo is the spell that is easy to render harmless(because spells that work on 4 advanced also work on immo...), and NR is a potent threat normally but puts a virtual lock on a lead against lower ranks(or anyone without AB I should say).

Just my opinion, all I know is I'm tired of watching apprentices, enchanters(without AB), and sorcerors (with G and R) duel me and not be able to win. Was it ever true that I was out-thought, out-played, unlucky and not paying attention? You bet. Did they win? Nope, even if all four conditions were met it was usually a tie. If one or two were not met and/or I thought hard, almost always the worst I would get was a tie. Did they leave and/or were upset? Usually. I also don't see why I should stop using additional spells, since that has not been brought up. Then the game part really sucks for me too now. Once I used just mw and the four app defenses against a nightfull of apprentices. I still got away with mostly ties, though I think I lost one or two. The perfect defenses are boring, unfair, and pointless which leads to my last addition. Higher ranks are not the problem people make them out to be, since FF/FT countereact almost every advanced spell period except for NR. I think the perfect defenses are the problem, not the better spell selection. My ability to not have them happen to me through having AB and NR, and to a small extent, MS makes the rank powerful, so I think it comes back to the original matrix. The reasons I think AB should be the addition and not a choice are

a. AB inserted to app matrix completely rids DoM of perfect defense, making that obsolete

b. AB counteracts NR, making apps fight better against one set of mages...FF/FT combined with a few app spells make Immo already easy to null.

c. AB and MS are about even vs the 4 adv spells, except that AB can't be reflected

d. AB has a better chance of making apps take chances than MS, and definately a better chance of that than adding G or R. MS might even invite more "safeplaying", and combined with the last perfect defense it can't hit would encourage high-percentage defensive shots. I am assuming this is bad and my view is correct that DoS,DoF style of risk rewards(not currently DoM's but AB might affect this) where risks are rewarded more often and that duels tend to be shorter and high/quick scoring is seen as exciting and duels go half as long seen as expedient. AB won't drastically affect this, but it has the best chance of doing it a little.

e. AddedSpell(not necessarily AB for this one) brings newcomers closer to having 2 spells after 2 WoL, a great difference from needing 5 to get to that. They would have 3 at 5 WoL, where normally it would be 2. From experience, this difference is large and would affect speed of dueling as well as whether or not it is felt as fair/enjoyable. A general argument that anything that helps people advance characters quickly through DoM leads to much enjoyment and things that impede lead to desertion.

Proposed solutions:
1. First was the list Farek gave to start this, including dracos's nod to spell selection.
2. Second option here was simply add Arctic Blast to apprentice spell matrix, not giving the choice upon first duel.
3!. There's always... Make the three apprentice attacks that currently correspond to one and only one apprentice defense hit two maybe, so they overlap? Just thought I'd offer it as well, since it is the other option to the "ranking up" of apprentices idea set forth. I'd also add that it is the hardest one to sell, hardest to implement, and the effects of this are unknown. For those reasons, I favor the first two over this but I added it just for sake of discussion. Whatever will make the game fairer and more exciting is what's important to me.


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