Regarding the Tuesday DoM and DoF Combo Night

[Rachael Blackthorne]

Swords and Sorcery has deep roots in various lore. Many of characters involved in DoS are magically based including the current Overlady. I'm surprised the idea wasn't mentioned before. Let us not forget that it was suggested that DoS share one of its two single sport sessions as opposed to "We're going to do that on Tuesday where DoM used to be and DoF/DoM combo is now." That's a distinct difference; DoS will still have a single night.

Suppose someone is a fan of DoF that suddenly gets told "No more DoF nights, something else will always be going on in the Outback with it." They don't have to be ok with that nor should they be. Case in point is my suggestion of the one night Monday combo for the tournament to avoid issues with the WLT. It makes more sense to me to have requested the extra day. By not arranging it that way, it gives the appearance of not wanting to disrupt the Monday DoF only session. It also supports the idea that DoF must have its single sport night. They're already combined twice a week, why not the third for one week? Suddenly, it's a different ballgame.

Harris already addressed that; it's a potentially a major issue, Outside of Tournaments, DoM participants no longer even have the option of having only DoM duels in the setting that was created for it. He also asked if either of the other two sports were placed it that position would it be shrugged off so easily. (Go back to my Monday combo night suggestion for the tournament and give it consideration as to how it relates to Harris's comment on not shrugging it off easily.) No one has answered that question that I saw outside of "But ... people weren't showing up." Arguably, that's a fair reason, but is it right to take it away from those that were showing up without even a "Do you mind?"

Is it right or fair to tell one group that, no, you must ALWAYS deal with another sport in that setting? TI is only open one night a week for duels. One night among seven. The question isn't really why is one combo ok and the other not, but why is taking away the one night for a single sport ok, but it hasn't been done to any of the others? Tell the Matt and the DoF people no more single sport night and some are bound to be annoyed. Tell G and DoS people that about DoS and they are likely to be annoyed. (Except Jake, who is good with Fight Night all the time. )

TL;DR: Bottom DoF/DoM combo is fine for some of us, but taking away the single night for DoM when others have their nights is not. I think that's the biggest objection.

This.

Thank you for putting how I feel about the original topic of this thread, the "experiment" combo DoM/DoF Tuesday nights, much clearer and calmer than I possibly could.

[PrlUnicorn]

I shouldn't have quoted any one person in particular. I found the overall idea that a DoM/DoS night was acceptable over a DoM/DoF night. By quoting Aja, I realize it made it seem like I just found her reasoning questionable, which was not the case. I was doubtful about the overall turn in the conversation.

I hope that the longwinded explanation helped some.

[Jake]

Swords and Sorcery has deep roots in various lore. Many of characters involved in DoS are magically based including the current Overlady. I'm surprised the idea wasn't mentioned before. Let us not forget that it was suggested that DoS share one of its two single sport sessions as opposed to "We're going to do that on Tuesday where DoM used to be and DoF/DoM combo is now." That's a distinct difference; DoS will still have a single night.

Suppose someone is a fan of DoF that suddenly gets told "No more DoF nights, something else will always be going on in the Outback with it." They don't have to be ok with that nor should they be. Case in point is my suggestion of the one night Monday combo for the tournament to avoid issues with the WLT. It makes more sense to me to have requested the extra day. By not arranging it that way, it gives the appearance of not wanting to disrupt the Monday DoF only session. It also supports the idea that DoF must have its single sport night. They're already combined twice a week, why not the third for one week? Suddenly, it's a different ballgame.

Harris already addressed that; it's a potentially a major issue, Outside of Tournaments, DoM participants no longer even have the option of having only DoM duels in the setting that was created for it. He also asked if either of the other two sports were placed it that position would it be shrugged off so easily. (Go back to my Monday combo night suggestion for the tournament and give it consideration as to how it relates to Harris's comment on not shrugging it off easily.) No one has answered that question that I saw outside of "But ... people weren't showing up." Arguably, that's a fair reason, but is it right to take it away from those that were showing up without even a "Do you mind?"

Is it right or fair to tell one group that, no, you must ALWAYS deal with another sport in that setting? TI is only open one night a week for duels. One night among seven. The question isn't really why is one combo ok and the other not, but why is taking away the one night for a single sport ok, but it hasn't been done to any of the others? Tell the Matt and the DoF people no more single sport night and some are bound to be annoyed. Tell G and DoS people that about DoS and they are likely to be annoyed. (Except Jake, who is good with Fight Night all the time. )

TL;DR: Bottom DoF/DoM combo is fine for some of us, but taking away the single night for DoM when others have their nights is not. I think that's the biggest objection.

To clear up a couple of points...

Technically, it wasn't a DoM solo night. DoM had a shift on RDI, and DoF had a shift on RoH.

Part of the reason the combo idea came up was because we were having problems staffing the DoF shift.

DoM was not specifically targeted. It just happened to be the other shift happening on the same night. So it made sense to consider combining the two shifts in to one.

Almost as soon as the discussion began, Matt made it clear that he was willing to go quid pro quo and offer to have DoM called in the Outback on Wednesday. But we decided to start with just Tuesday and see how that went.

Had it been a DoS shift on Tuesday instead of a DoM shift, I think you already know it wouldn't have changed my vote in the least. DoS/DoF, DoS/DoM, DoF/DoM, Fight Night... whatever gives players the *most* access to dueling is what I want.

Sidenote: The reason that Melanie for example was able to get that 100 WoL in a year in DoF was because of our efforts to make dueling available as often as possible. When I started DoF, it was hosted roughly one night a week. And that wasn't always regular. When I started as a caller, DoF was called two nights a week. Percy and I split Friday and Saturday. So he got to call one night, and I got to call the other. It was a *much* harder feat to get to 100 WoL in DoF back then.

When DoF first started, it was on Fridays and Saturdays, and competed with DoS. Then we got kicked off of the weekend and moved to weeknights, which in my opinion hurt DoF. It made it much harder for people to make it in to duel when it was school/work nights. I can't argue that DoS wasn't the more popular sport at the time, and maybe it was the right choice, but as a tangent I want to point out that not all nights are equal. Weekends (and Thursdays) are, and have always been, the best nights for dueling. Hands down. Hence the reason most tournies are held then. A "solo" night on a Friday is much better than a solo night in the middle of the week.

As another note, DoS has *already* given up a solo night. Fridays used to be DoS-only not that long ago.

I recognize there will always be resistance to change, but as a forum we're always going to try and make the best decisions we can for the resources we have and for the purpose of making the duels available to as many people as we can.

IF we had the callers, we might have other options. If we had more people that could volunteer on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, we'd have more leeway in staffing different rooms for individual sports. But we don't.

G regularly rails about the subs not filling in for the regulars. And it's not surprising that hosts burn-out after calling for months or years. Fortunately, we do get replacements as new people join the forum, but we could use more.

If we had more callers, we could explore more options. Wider hours. Maybe a Sunday afternoon shift. More solo shifts that ran parallel.

But the reality is that we have to make the best of what we've got right now.

I can appreciate that people would *like* to have a DoM-only night on Twilight Island. I can appreciate that G would like to protect DoS. I know that Matt and Kheldar have always sought to keep DoF going. Really, I'd like to thank all of them. G, Matt, Lem, and their respective teams, for being as cooperative as they are with each other. We have a good team of coords who are open to new ideas (even if a little persuading is sometimes needed) who work well with each other.

I do not want to see us cling to "the way things were" if we can make things better. If we can maximize the usage of our callers by pairing up sports, then that's what we'll do. If we someday wind up with an overabundance of callers, maybe we can look at opening more parallel shifts again. But until then, we have to try and make the decisions that benefit the most people.

In the end, DoM hasn't lost a night. It's gained a night.

IF the environment has gotten less "fun" because of a different crowd of people being in the room, then that's a separate problem to address. And really, I think Jewell has already said it pretty well, so I don't want to re-hash that. The only thing I'm going to repeat is the mantra I've been repeating for years: "Play *WITH*, not *AT*".

[Jake]

One addendum:

We did err in not being more proactive about telling folks that the experiment had been viewed as a success and extended (as well as DoM being added to the Wednesday Outback shift).

Transparency is something I've always been in a favor of. If people understand the thinking, they'll better understand the decisions. As well as ensuring that people know we're listening.

We'll try to do better on the transparency side.

[LadyAjaBird]

I already spoke to Jewell about my reasons I like the DoS/DoM pairing better-- I know I'm not always the clearest person in the world. So I'll share the same explanation here:

About the combo night being different for Swords than Fists. I do think Swords is a better "fit" for a combo night. Atmosphere wise. The whole Swords & Sorcery thing has been a long running theme in many stories too.

Also. I can call for both with no issues at all. When I signed up to be a caller, I asked to do Swords or Magic only. I never could fully understand fists. And I think you have to --to make calls fun for the participants.

Hope that clears up some stuff there.

[PrlUnicorn]

Part of the reason the combo idea came up was because we were having problems staffing the DoF shift.

and

One addendum:

We did err in not being more proactive about telling folks that the experiment had been viewed as a success and extended (as well as DoM being added to the Wednesday Outback shift).

Transparency is something I've always been in a favor of. If people understand the thinking, they'll better understand the decisions. As well as ensuring that people know we're listening.

We'll try to do better on the transparency side.

Had it been openly stated that there was an issue with staffing DoF this might not have been railed against as hard. However, instead of being told that bit of information, the initial announcement was misleading in that the experiment was to strictly benefit DoM and raise participation. I won't call it a lie because I don't think that was the intent.

Since it's been clarified that callers won't be expected to call a sport they don't feel comfortable with and can use whatever calling tools they prefer, that's half the battle to compromise.

[Andrea Anderson]

I can't agree with the idea that Duel of Swords and Magic are a better "fit". They can be perceived as such by individuals because this is Free Form Role Play and settings can be, within a limitation, whatever a character desires. There is no set feeling or mood to a setting without it being player created.

Some view DoS as fencing. Some view it as samurai dashing through a bamboo field clashing with one another at high speeds. Some swing nerf bats and others poke with staves. Are any of these the right concept / setting / mood for duel of swords? No. Are any of them wrong? Very no.

That's the beauty of free form role play. It's whatever you, the player, want it to be.

DoF and DoM fit together very well. An example being interactions between Opal holders and Keepers if they feel like playing off one another ( and I'm sure many of you know examples of this ), one being Matt's own post about freezing the water surrounding the Tower of Water with the aid of IceDancer to create a frozen tower. This set a mood for this one player and any others who felt like / enjoyed playing into it.

Another example of mixing DoM and DoF is the recent ID Tournament. Jesse, my character, stole the IceDancer Opal in an attempt to take it to Twilight Isle. She tripped, it fell into the pool, the Outback got frosty. It created a mini-storyline and setting / atmosphere in Duel of Fists that led into the Endless Waltz on Ice Prom / Tournament.

There are examples in even media. I'm sure many of the newer / younger playerbase grew up with shows like Dragon Ball Z. That was a mixture of karate and mystic abilities. You also have Avatar the Last Air Bender ( and for Jewell -- Asami is best girl ) which uses bending of the elements and martial arts to tell a fantasy story.

Even games such as Street Fighter, Tekken, the King of Fighters, have some sort of magical influence with their fist counter parts. Even a Rose player, who uses spiritual-like magic to create projectiles and other such things, won the Ultra Street Fighter IV tournament at this years Evo. These are all examples of Magic and Fists working together in some sort of play setting.

I'll even use my favorite character of Duel of Magic and the one who got me interested in the sport all together. Neo Eternity. I recall a duel between him and Seirichi last year where she would use her own fighting spirit to deflect away magebolts and other such spells in the form of shields / reflect / etc; an example of flexing muscles suddenly and using a burst of fighting spirit to redirect these spells away. The character, Neo, commented about this and a small conversation sparked up during the duel.

This is how Fists and Magic meld. The same with how Swords and Magic can meld. Even Swords and Fists can meld. Matt kicks and punches when using a knife in swords, Nayun kicks at her opponents when her blade can't get in fast enough.

There's also the fact that you can gain achievements for holding a Tower and Opal of the same nature. Even the Opals themselves can be seen as something "Magical". The vibe is there when you read their powers on the histories page. You can shadow clone during a DoF match, you can freeze the floor under your opponents feet, and that's just the basic examples.

The point of my rambling is this. Roleplay is how you want it to be. This is a freeform setting. There is no right or wrong atmosphere or "feel" to a room or mixture of duel-styles. ( unless, of course, it breaks the rules of the RDI/ROH website guidelines, then yes - that's wrong ).

All things can fit together if enough thought and care is put into it.

Tower, Altered - Matt's post of IceDancer and the Tower of Water.

Edit: This is not to say I disagree with the idea of DoS / DoM shared night. I personally think it's a good idea.

[Jake]

Had it been openly stated that there was an issue with staffing DoF this might not have been railed against as hard. However, instead of being told that bit of information, the initial announcement was misleading in that the experiment was to strictly benefit DoM and raise participation. I won't call it a lie because I don't think that was the intent.

I don't want to quibble, but I am not sure where this is coming from.

I don't believe that any such assertion was made.

This is a link to the original announcement http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... hp?t=28019

Starting Tuesday, April 1st, the Duel of Fists will have dueling rings available on Twilight Isle (RoH side) each Tuesday night throughout the month of April! Now you can sling spells and punch someone in the face without having to travel the distance between the Isle and the Outback!

One of the purposes of discussion (both publicly and internally) is to sound out ideas to review the pros and cons. Rarely is a decision made solely for one purpose.

If someone expressed that the Fists and Magic nights were intended solely to benefit DoM, that would have been incorrect. I double checked with Lem, and as far as he knew no such statement was made.

...

ETA: Another link http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... hp?t=28020 that also references the extension into May.

[Corlanthis]

The idea of the "Mystical Kung-Fu" warrior is also a pretty common trope. Martial arts unlocking spiritual powers through mastery of one's body. Which, unless I'm miss-remembering is part of the reason *why* the Opal holders are able to contain the spirits/elementals/whathaveyou inside the Opals.

My point being: Magic + Fist Fighting is just as widespread as Sword and Sorcery fiction.

[Shadowlord]

One addendum:

We did err in not being more proactive about telling folks that the experiment had been viewed as a success and extended (as well as DoM being added to the Wednesday Outback shift).

Transparency is something I've always been in a favor of. If people understand the thinking, they'll better understand the decisions. As well as ensuring that people know we're listening.

We'll try to do better on the transparency side.

I very much appreciate this sentiment!

[Lem DeAngelo]

Posting from phone, please excuse any errors.

I wanted to say I basically agree with Jake's earlier post, but I wanted to respond to a few things:

Had it been openly stated that there was an issue with staffing DoF this might not have been railed against as hard. However, instead of being told that bit of information, the initial announcement was misleading in that the experiment was to strictly benefit DoM and raise participation. I won't call it a lie because I don't think that was the intent.

Jake posted a link to my initial announcement post, and I don't recall any other posts that I made to the public forum stating the idea was to strictly benefit DoM and raise participation. I will never attempt to be misleading.

Since it's been clarified that callers won't be expected to call a sport they don't feel comfortable with and can use whatever calling tools they prefer, that's half the battle to compromise.

I don't think we've ever mandated what tools a caller can use or what sports they must call. I doubt we ever would unless one of the tools fed into a database for automated standings. IMs, Arbiter, and RoH Tool have been available tools for many years, but we've never mandated which one had to be used.

Is this comment more of a concern with the decision to move DoM Tuesday to RoH? If so, the move was my decision based upon the # of duels I expected to occur on Tuesdays with the combo night. I did consider the complexity of adding DoF duels, but before we started the combo night in April, the Tuesday DoM callers included Ajia, Claire, and Apple who started splitting the shift near the end of February/beginning of March. I spoke to all 3 of them by email and AIM before announcing the combo night move to RoH, and all of them felt comfortable with calling Fists and Magic duels. All of them know the matrices very well, so my decision to move to RoH was based on providing the the caller's tool to our callers in case the # of duels picked up.

[Andrea Anderson]

The idea of the "Mystical Kung-Fu" warrior is also a pretty common trope. Martial arts unlocking spiritual powers through mastery of one's body. Which, unless I'm miss-remembering is part of the reason *why* the Opal holders are able to contain the spirits/elementals/whathaveyou inside the Opals.

My point being: Magic + Fist Fighting is just as widespread as Sword and Sorcery fiction.

Mystical Kung-Fu is boss. But I liked Dr. Strange better.

[Peaches]

But I liked Dr. Strange better.

You rang?

[Corlanthis]

No Peaches, we said Doctor Strange, not Doctor Fate.

[Andrea Anderson]

No Peaches, we said Doctor Strange, not Doctor Fate.

Did you see Peacekeepers of the Universe yet?