Regarding the Tuesday DoM and DoF Combo Night

[Jake]

If it's about the setting...I don't see how the fact that other sports being played in the same venue is a problem. Does it fit the genre of the setting? Maybe not. Neither does DoF in Star's End, but that seems to be popular enough that Kheldar wants to do it on a recurring basis.

When I was hosting SEB back on AOL, they had an area that was sometimes set aside for boxing matches. Toby would probably have a fresher memory on that than I do. Pretty sure it was the area marked as the dance floor. Why wouldn't DoF fit into a place where bar brawls have been commonplace?

I think you missed my point. I don't have any problem with DoF in SEB.

[Jake]

Arbiter still works and does track foci scores. It hasn't had an update in years. I recall some people would often have trouble getting the program to work on their OS though. I think that's the only problem I recall for calling regular duels. There were some megacast foci issues, but no issues with regular duels.

My recollection is that Arbiter is a 32-bit app, and so won't install/run properly on some versions of Windows 7 (which is 64-bit). In theory I can run it on my version of Win 7 (but I've never installed it), but Leesa cannot with her version of Win 7.

Like the RoH tool, the coder for the Arbiter tool isn't available/around to update the code.

[PrlUnicorn]

If it's about the setting...I don't see how the fact that other sports being played in the same venue is a problem. Does it fit the genre of the setting? Maybe not. Neither does DoF in Star's End, but that seems to be popular enough that Kheldar wants to do it on a recurring basis.

When I was hosting SEB back on AOL, they had an area that was sometimes set aside for boxing matches. Toby would probably have a fresher memory on that than I do. Pretty sure it was the area marked as the dance floor. Why wouldn't DoF fit into a place where bar brawls have been commonplace?

I think you missed my point. I don't have any problem with DoF in SEB.

I got your point and didn't say you objected. However, much like when you explain why things work the way they work in the Duels due to history, I was explaining how DoF fits into the SEB based on its history.

[Jake]

When I was hosting SEB back on AOL, they had an area that was sometimes set aside for boxing matches. Toby would probably have a fresher memory on that than I do. Pretty sure it was the area marked as the dance floor. Why wouldn't DoF fit into a place where bar brawls have been commonplace?

I think you missed my point. I don't have any problem with DoF in SEB.

I got your point and didn't say you objected. However, much like when you explain why things work the way they work in the Duels due to history, I was explaining how DoF fits into the SEB based on its history.

Ah. Fair enough.

[PrlUnicorn]

If there were to be a combo night on Saturdays with Swords and Magic. I would be willing to call for that too.

I'm a little confused. Combo nights with DoF/DoM are bad but combo nights with DoM/DoS are okay?

For the sake of the point of order:

Fists calling is never anything I wanted to do. I like calling magic. The RDI side is better suited as the tool on RoH side doesn't correctly score it.

[Andrea Anderson]

Since it was brought up and some sub-callers might not know how to properly score DoM matches with the RoH tool. While some may use Arbiter for regulation fight night duel calling on RoH ( and that's fine ), there's a work around to fix the problem with adding the foci .5 to the score. I used Arbiter as well when I first started calling DoM Fight Night Matches / Challenges, but figured this out later on. I'm sure others knew of this before, but I had no clue personally.





The next round will continue with that .5 score added, so on and so on. You will only need to add another .5 again manually if another foci is used. An example being that if in round two the duelists use MB / FMB, the foci users score of 2.5 can manually be changed to a solid 3.

I found that for me, personally, it was quicker to use the RoH tool and use this work around compared to going back and forth between Arbiter and the flash chat. To each their own, but if some did not know -- here's another option.

[JewellRavenlock]

If there were to be a combo night on Saturdays with Swords and Magic. I would be willing to call for that too.

I'm a little confused. Combo nights with DoF/DoM are bad but combo nights with DoM/DoS are okay?

For the sake of the point of order:

Fists calling is never anything I wanted to do. I like calling magic. The RDI side is better suited as the tool on RoH side doesn't correctly score it.

I don't think that's the real answer. All it explains is that Aja doesn't like calling DoF. That's it. She's one person. And it doesn't explain why DoM/DoF nights are not okay with several people but there's been a positive response to a possible DoM/DoS nights. It only says that Aja doesn't want to call DoF. Not why she or anyone else doesn't want those two sports together but DoM/DoS together is fine.

Kal said:

I feel like that issue is being danced around, except for what Napoleon wrote..

I 100% agree. Numbers being down were pointed to as a reason for not liking DoM/DoF night, but I think it was made pretty clear that the numbers actually don't support that argument since DoM is seeing more activity when compared to past, long-term activity. Play also begets play, so even if there are more DoF duels going on during the Tuesday night shift, at least people are playing. That draws more players in. Some of those players may (and have!) tried DoM.

Also, there was the argument of DoM deserving its own night so that a caller can sit around and call 1 or 2 duels maybe. Right.

I think the most telling thing was the whole: "DoM/DoF combination is bad for.. [insert a plethora of reasons that haven't stood the test of this dialogue]" but then "DoM/DoS combination sounds like it has a lot of potential!"

So does no one really one to step up and admit what the real issue is? Because it certainly seems like the real problem is more of a personal issue with the people who tend to frequent DoF nights.

[Lem DeAngelo]

For the sake of the point of order:

Fists calling is never anything I wanted to do. I like calling magic. The RDI side is better suited as the tool on RoH side doesn't correctly score it.

Apple posted some screenshots of how to easily manipulate the caller's tool for foci, but another thing I wanted to point out is that on RDI we use the IMs for calling duels. RoH also supports IMs, so there's really no mechanical difference between calling on RDI and RoH except that RoH does have the caller's tool available if it's desired. Callers on RoH can always use IMs if the caller's tool malfunctions, or if they aren't comfortable with the tool.

[Napoleon Bonarat]

So does no one really one to step up and admit what the real issue is? Because it certainly seems like the real problem is more of a personal issue with the people who tend to frequent DoF nights.

I think it goes both ways. Some people in Group A feels targeted/harassed by some people in Group B, and some people in Group B feels ignored by some people in Group A. And that's just a tiny tip of the iceberg.

I could give specific examples (no names) that show perceptions depending on which group a player is in (or how an outsider might see it), but won't post it here. Maybe it'll be an ME post or a new topic.

[JewellRavenlock]

I think it goes both ways.

These things usually to go two ways (if not more).

My concern is first and foremost that people are letting personal differences get in the way of community success. That is not okay any way you slice it. It just isn't. We're a community of adults. If we're letting personal differences sabotage ventures enacted to help support the community as a whole.. I just feel pretty disgusted and exasperated.

It's also the height of immaturity. We have the ignore function. We have the ability to change people's fonts so we don't have to see what they're sending to the room. We have the mental capacity to just not read what people are sending to the room!

The admins and coordinators have to consider what is best for the community as a whole. People opposed hosting any nights on Dragon's Mark for dueling, but that was what was best for the community as a whole even if it made some individual players uncomfortable. And amazing, that action did not destroy the duels. I'd argue that it probably is a big factor in keeping the community alive.

Some people oppose the DoM/DoF combo night. The only thing THAT opposing/boycotting does is help stymie an attempt at supporting the community. Maybe people don't see it that way, but that's what it is.

ETA: Just to be clear, I take issue with ANYONE, from whatever "side" of these problems, that lets personal differences get in the way of community success.

[Napoleon Bonarat]

QFT.

[PrlUnicorn]

I'm a little confused. Combo nights with DoF/DoM are bad but combo nights with DoM/DoS are okay?

For the sake of the point of order:

Fists calling is never anything I wanted to do. I like calling magic. The RDI side is better suited as the tool on RoH side doesn't correctly score it.

I don't think that's the real answer. All it explains is that Aja doesn't like calling DoF. That's it. She's one person. And it doesn't explain why DoM/DoF nights are not okay with several people but there's been a positive response to a possible DoM/DoS nights. It only says that Aja doesn't want to call DoF. Not why she or anyone else doesn't want those two sports together but DoM/DoS together is fine.

You specifically quoted Aja and that is her reason why she doesn't like the combo night. I know she can speak for herself, but it was already there.

Swords and Sorcery has deep roots in various lore. Many of characters involved in DoS are magically based including the current Overlady. I'm surprised the idea wasn't mentioned before. Let us not forget that it was suggested that DoS share one of its two single sport sessions as opposed to "We're going to do that on Tuesday where DoM used to be and DoF/DoM combo is now." That's a distinct difference; DoS will still have a single night.

Suppose someone is a fan of DoF that suddenly gets told "No more DoF nights, something else will always be going on in the Outback with it." They don't have to be ok with that nor should they be. Case in point is my suggestion of the one night Monday combo for the tournament to avoid issues with the WLT. It makes more sense to me to have requested the extra day. By not arranging it that way, it gives the appearance of not wanting to disrupt the Monday DoF only session. It also supports the idea that DoF must have its single sport night. They're already combined twice a week, why not the third for one week? Suddenly, it's a different ballgame.

Harris already addressed that; it's a potentially a major issue, Outside of Tournaments, DoM participants no longer even have the option of having only DoM duels in the setting that was created for it. He also asked if either of the other two sports were placed it that position would it be shrugged off so easily. (Go back to my Monday combo night suggestion for the tournament and give it consideration as to how it relates to Harris's comment on not shrugging it off easily.) No one has answered that question that I saw outside of "But ... people weren't showing up." Arguably, that's a fair reason, but is it right to take it away from those that were showing up without even a "Do you mind?"

Is it right or fair to tell one group that, no, you must ALWAYS deal with another sport in that setting? TI is only open one night a week for duels. One night among seven. The question isn't really why is one combo ok and the other not, but why is taking away the one night for a single sport ok, but it hasn't been done to any of the others? Tell the Matt and the DoF people no more single sport night and some are bound to be annoyed. Tell G and DoS people that about DoS and they are likely to be annoyed. (Except Jake, who is good with Fight Night all the time. )

TL;DR: Bottom DoF/DoM combo is fine for some of us, but taking away the single night for DoM when others have their nights is not. I think that's the biggest objection.

Kal said:

I feel like that issue is being danced around, except for what Napoleon wrote..

Napoleon might initially have been caustic, but when half the room is ignoring the other it makes play difficult at best for those of us that aren't ignoring anyone in the room. We appear to have a trickle down effect in progress that goes along with what Jewell says here:

It's also the height of immaturity. We have the ignore function. We have the ability to change people's fonts so we don't have to see what they're sending to the room. We have the mental capacity to just not read what people are sending to the room!

Player A ignores Player B.
Player A's pals often also ignore Player B because there's no need to know what that person is saying, they are not in that social group ( clique is so damned high school) and it might confuse things. Player B's pals get confused because their references to Player B's character toward Player A and Co. are being ignored. If they reference Player B's character too often, they might find themselves on ignore or they might chose to ignore Player A and Co for the sake of their own sanity. Much like the old Faberge Organic Shampoo commercial it's become tell two friends, they tell two friends, and so on and so on.

The behavior all the way around has turned play from a joy to a draining drudge. Everyone involved in the ignore fest bears responsibility for the effect it's having as a whole. Everyone involved in the ignore fest might want also to consider exactly what behaviors are so offensive that it's having an impact not just on the players being ignored, but the community as a whole.

The admins and coordinators have to consider what is best for the community as a whole. People opposed hosting any nights on Dragon's Mark for dueling, but that was what was best for the community as a whole even if it made some individual players uncomfortable. And amazing, that action did not destroy the duels. I'd argue that it probably is a big factor in keeping the community alive.

That's an excellent point. While this example relates primarily to DoS, it's a potentially part of the problem with the ignore issue being discussed here, too. Having to have an intermediary to arrange a challenge match because one party or the other is being ignored is ridiculous. I don't know when that started being allowed, but I do remember at one point, on a different forum, that players were told that they were not allowed to ignore challengers, they had to answer them and deal with the players in question. Not only does that set a bad precedent, it fosters a poor community spirit beginning with the group of players (the title holders) that should be setting a better example for those participating.

It doesn't take much time or effort to send and respond to messages that require dates, times, and caller preferences. It's not hard and communication can be kept to the bare minimum. We all have to deal with people we don't want to at certain times, but to me making those arrangements is a part of the responsibility of a challenger and title holder, not some middle man. Or as I said to someone while in caustic bitch mode: "If you want to be a title holder, suck it up and deal with the people challenging you or retire the title."

[BardGallant]

All right. So all this is from the middle, but since my name got dropped here I am.

Dris and Peaches help call on Saturdays now, and I don't believe either of them are experienced enough with DoM to call without the tool. Dris I know for sure has said it. Not sure about Peaches.

Saturday would be great for the exposure, that's the truth. Just a matter of being comfortable actually calling that style.

I volunteered Saturdays because I have the time available. Also because I like promoting the Duels on Dragon's Mark as much as possible, to get more people to try it out by having the presence in those rooms, and then directing them here when I can.

I know Swords. I can actually call that using pen and paper and not having to rely on a tool. Very rarely I find myself needing to use the round checker that somebody directed me to over on the Dueling Zone site, one I feel a lot of other people forget about, so I'm mentioning it here. That said...

Does Arbiter (sp?) allow for the Focused moves? If so, would it be a viable option for DoM callers instead of the calling tool?

I don't know about Arbiter, but it looks like the round checker on DZ has a check-box to include Foci, and it works.

If it's something they're interested in doing/learning, I'd be willing to sit in on Saturdays help them out until they're comfortable with it.

It is not impossible to learn. I know DoM . . . okay. I've dueled it on another character, even under Dris once or twice. I've done it before and after the changes to make the matrix more widely available for all (I like the new way with foci better). The only problem I would have with doing this is that I can only handle three duels at a time on DM. Without the integrated calling tool, I just can't handle more than that. The IM windows bug the crap out of me. I can only, at max, have open six at a time before I want to claw my brains out.

It would be awesome if there were an integrated tool on DM, but I know how likely that is to happen. It's not that I'm not willing to learn, or that I don't know how, or don't have the tools at my disposal to be able to do it. In my case, it's that I am incapable of handling a crowd as large as this kind of change-up is likely to create.

I guess it's an opinion of each caller, but I know it's much easier for me to call 4 duels with 1 caller's tool on screen as opposed to 8 different IMs.

Right. ^-- This.

As it looks now I am able to help out Saturday nights with Magic calling. Either helping others or simply accepting all magic queues.

So if there's this? And Aja said she'd be wililng to help too. That's cool. I'm fine with that. Bring on an extra callers to do just the DoM while I do just the DoS. That would rock.

Heck. Bring on extra callers all the time! I like it when there's a crowd, even if I can't pay much attention to the RP going on because of the excess dueling. I like the excess dueling. It saves me from getting Dris into trouble all the time anyway.

[PrlUnicorn]

Since it was brought up and some sub-callers might not know how to properly score DoM matches with the RoH tool. While some may use Arbiter for regulation fight night duel calling on RoH ( and that's fine ), there's a work around to fix the problem with adding the foci .5 to the score. I used Arbiter as well when I first started calling DoM Fight Night Matches / Challenges, but figured this out later on. I'm sure others knew of this before, but I had no clue personally.

Love the visual aids! It doesn't look hard to adjust that. Anything focused that scores, add the half point manually and the score adds correctly? Idea works for me!

I think callers that are new at it should remind people in the room of that fact, it helps increase the patience level.

[JewellRavenlock]

I did quote Aja, Collie. Thank you for pointing that out because when I initially read your response, I was like, "Why is she bringing just Aja's reasoning into this?" But a big duh moment on my part since I forgot I quoted her.

I shouldn't have quoted any one person in particular. I found the overall idea that a DoM/DoS night was acceptable over a DoM/DoF night. By quoting Aja, I realize it made it seem like I just found her reasoning questionable, which was not the case. I was doubtful about the overall turn in the conversation.