IFL Hiatus

[Rakeesh]

There are sort of two issues to tackle here.

1) Kalamere, for complicated reasons, has decided to take a year off from IFL.

Guys, I love IFL (I also, really, really loved TDL too). It's a bummer that it won't be happening this Fall ... but it won't be happening this Fall. How can you help to make that into a good thing?

- Recruit. Recruit, recruit, recruit. Help ROH find more new players.

- Help run exciting, interesting, new events in the Fall since you won't have to compete with IFL. When designing said events, consider balancing the demands on other peoples' time with your event encouraging regulation activity.

- Keep talking, but don't be salty! Conversation is good. Salt, in this community, historically, is bad. It might even be a primary reason for the loss of good players over a long period of time. There are very few people, if any, who've done more good for ROH than Kalamere over the years. If he wants to take a season off, for any reason (even if you don't agree), let him! You're not entitled to Kalamere making your fun. And as awesome as IFL is, you could go and run something just as awesome and just as fun!

2) Cyclical rut or long-term hemorrhaging of players? It's a good question. I do believe that ROH's activity tends to be cyclical to a degree, but I also suspect that there's probably a gradual and consistent net loss of players over a long period of time. Can this be stopped? Can ROH compete with other games and communities? How?

They aren't new questions. We were talking about this when ROH grew out of AOL chatrooms. I do fear that at some point a community can pass a point-of-no-return in terms of population size. It's not that we haven't gotten some fantastic new players over the past 5-6 years ... it's just that we've lost a lot more fantastic old players, and we haven't gotten as many new players as we used to get.

The best things that I can suggest in this regard:

- Try to find ways to bring in new players that have never experienced ROH or RDI before.

- Let go of old grudges. Don't start new grudges. The drama was never worth it, will never be worth it.

That's about all I've got!

[Claire Gallows]

There are sort of two issues to tackle here.

1) Kalamere, for complicated reasons, has decided to take a year off from IFL.

Guys, I love IFL (I also, really, really loved TDL too). It's a bummer that it won't be happening this Fall ... but it won't be happening this Fall. How can you help to make that into a good thing?

- Recruit. Recruit, recruit, recruit. Help ROH find more new players.

- Help run exciting, interesting, new events in the Fall since you won't have to compete with IFL. When designing said events, consider balancing the demands on other peoples' time with your event encouraging regulation activity.

- Keep talking, but don't be salty! Conversation is good. Salt, in this community, historically, is bad. It might even be a primary reason for the loss of good players over a long period of time. There are very few people, if any, who've done more good for ROH than Kalamere over the years. If he wants to take a season off, for any reason (even if you don't agree), let him! You're not entitled to Kalamere making your fun. And as awesome as IFL is, you could go and run something just as awesome and just as fun!

2) Cyclical rut or long-term hemorrhaging of players? It's a good question. I do believe that ROH's activity tends to be cyclical to a degree, but I also suspect that there's probably a gradual and consistent net loss of players over a long period of time. Can this be stopped? Can ROH compete with other games and communities? How?

They aren't new questions. We were talking about this when ROH grew out of AOL chatrooms. I do fear that at some point a community can pass a point-of-no-return in terms of population size. It's not that we haven't gotten some fantastic new players over the past 5-6 years ... it's just that we've lost a lot more fantastic old players, and we haven't gotten as many new players as we used to get.

The best things that I can suggest in this regard:

- Try to find ways to bring in new players that have never experienced ROH or RDI before.

- Let go of old grudges. Don't start new grudges. The drama was never worth it, will never be worth it.

That's about all I've got!

You forgot this:

[Kalamere]

In the real world I'm a guy that leans to the political right, at least fiscally, and generally believes in free market policies. That's pretty much what we're talking about here with the topic of player choice. Picking this event over that, or event to regulation or just spectating and RP'ing vs either. Line up the possibilities and players are on their own to select what they want to do.

The problem here, when trying to apply free market theory, is that our options are sometimes inter connected. It's not always separate businesses left to thrive or flounder on their own merits and consumer confidence in one vs the other. Rather, we're dealing with symbiotic relationships that see one suffer the negtives effects imparted on the other if they aren't kept in some kind of balance.

If we choose regulation dueling over league play, then you may end up without enough interest to have the league run at all. If we choose league play over regulation, then it's harder for new characters to find duels and get established. Leagues draw from the regulation body to fill in as players move on, so if the every day dies off so too will go the leagues in time.

The correlation to free market works a little bit better when you're comparing the leagues / events to one another. Hydra vs IFL vs Ragnarok, etc. It isn't a great comparison, since they're never run at the same time, but it more or less works. Please don't think that the decision around IFL had anything to do with Hydra though. I've tried to be clear about that.

To me, for this, it is about the balance. There are some who don't like the league play, wish it wasn't really a thing or largely believe it damages regulation and the community at large. There are others who love league play, believe it benefits the community and for them is really what they enjoy most around the dueling experience. In my mind, IFL has served the latter group for three years running. This year I've decided to serve the former.

[DUEL Kheldar]

There are sort of two issues to tackle here.

1) Kalamere, for complicated reasons, has decided to take a year off from IFL.

Guys, I love IFL (I also, really, really loved TDL too). It's a bummer that it won't be happening this Fall ... but it won't be happening this Fall. How can you help to make that into a good thing?

Lots of this.

First thought as a temporary replacement for IFL is bringing back some implementation of the Tag Team League. Maybe multisport tag team... Lots of time to figure it out.

Point is, we can do something fun, Kal can have a winter off, IFL will still be great in '17

Regarding the issue of leagues affecting regular dueling. I don't think it matters much. I'm pretty sure they're a net positive for the community as a whole. However, having no evidence other than the fact I've run a weekly shift since pretty much as long as the ringsofhonor site has been a thing, regular dueling goes down during non regulation league seasons. It also goes down on a daily basis when there is a challenge, or a tournament. Those are still good things, and we're not going to stop any of them.

[Luna Eva]

Regarding the issue of leagues affecting regular dueling. I don't think it matters much. I'm pretty sure they're a net positive for the community as a whole. However, having no evidence other than the fact I've run a weekly shift since pretty much as long as the ringsofhonor site has been a thing, regular dueling goes down during non regulation league seasons. It also goes down on a daily basis when there is a challenge, or a tournament. Those are still good things, and we're not going to stop any of them.

I started as a new dueler after IFL 2014. Low attendance at regulation has been one of my top frustrations as a new dueler.

Was there a time where regulation dueling was well-attended on a somewhat regular basis? Because I have not experienced that.

If we're not going to change anything, even though the days of healthfully attended regulation are over (if they ever existed), maybe we could at least acknowledge that it's a challenge for new duelers and think about ways to support new duelers who are dying of thirst in the regulation desert.

[Rakeesh]

Was there a time where regulation dueling was well-attended on a somewhat regular basis? Because I have not experienced that.

For what it's worth... man, it'd blow your mind how popular regulation dueling was once upon a time. :p

But the internet and multiplayer game options have changed vastly over the years, which is certainly a challenge. MUDs, the text-based predecessors of MMORPGs (of which, ROH shares a lot of similar traits and trends) also used to be insanely popular, and similarly, most of them have vanished or have greatly diminished over the years.

It's very impressive that the community's held together for so long. It'll be even more impressive if it can re-ignite activity in a lasting and growing way. I believe that it's possible ... but that's really a whole other crop of subjects.

[Sabine]

I really like all your words contributed thus far Rakish. All very good points.

I especially like the part about letting grudges go. I know we've lost some because of issues like that.

Come back !

[Andrea Anderson]

Notes: Dueling do see a drop during IFL, but dueling still happens.
The graph shows an upswing in duels post IFL, so this Rubio's the notion that post IFL brought about burn-out due to multiple leagues running.
There also shows upswings during events such as Toss the Loss nights and other ROH Staff sponsored events that promote regulation dueling

TL;DR, leagues aren't killing dueling by much, Hydra brings up numbers in actuality, and post-league burnout isn't really a thing. Also Staff Events help regulation.

PS. Some numbers might be off by a few digits.

For people who are too lazy, like me, to read through everything. Here's a graph.

V



^

These are duels for ALL THREE SPORTS. DoS / DoF / DoM Nights + Fight Nights. You will see a drop in DoS / DoF / DoM nights later on due to the change of replacing some nights with Fight Nights.

Code: Select all

Oct 2014

IFL Registration

DoS: 23
DoF: 15
DoM: 13
Fight Night: 53

All Together: 104

Nov 2014

IFL

DoS: 25
DoF: 12
DoM: 32 ( No Loss Night during this month )
Fight Night: 35

All Together: 104

Dec 2014

IFL

DoS: 26 ( DoS Christmas Event during this month )
DoF: 18
DoM: 15
Fight Night: 40

All Together: 99

Jan 2015

DoS: 38
DoF: 39
DoM: 18
Fight Night: 68

All Together: 163

Feb 2015

DoS: 25
DoF: 62
DoM: 13
Fight Night: 39

All Together: 139

March 2015

Madness Begins

DoS: 46
DoF: 62
DoM: 13
Fight Night: 88

All Together: 209

April 2015

Madness Continues

DoS: 26
DoF: 35
DoM: 8
Fight Night: 36

All Together: 105

May 2015

Ragnarok

DoS: 13
DoF: 24
DoM: 8
Fight Night: 32

All Together: 77

June 2015

DoS: 18
DoF: 35
DoM: 22
Fight Night: 23

All Together: 98

July 2015

Hydra ( A lot of non-hydra matches )

DoS: 36
DoF: 41
DoM: 20
Fight Night: 61

All Together: 158

Aug 2015

Hydra Continue -- Hydra Post League Tourmanet -- End
DoF Event - IceDancer ( Regulation Dueling Event ) -- Begins later in the month

DoS: 29
DoF: 56
DoM: 8
Fight Night: 93

All Together: 186

Sep 2015

DoF Event - IceDancer ( Regulation Dueling Event ) -- Continues during the beginning of the month
Daggers and Drinks event happens this month for DoS

DoS: 7
DoF: 23
DoM: 19
Fight Night: 47

All Together: 96

Oct 2015

IFL Registration begins

DoS: 5
DoF: 2
DoM: 2
Fight Night: 41

All Together: 50

Nov 2015

IFL
DoM -- Toss the Loss Night happens this month

DoS: 0
DoF: 0
DoM: 19 ( DOM IS CHAMP THIS MONTH )
Fight Night: 38

All Together: 57

December 2015

IFL

DoS: 0
DoF: 3
DoM: 0
Fight Night: 29

All Together: 32

Jan 2016

DoS: 11
DoF: 8
DoM: 3
Fight Night: 57

All Together: 79

Feb 2016

DoS: 5
DoF: 4
DoM: 2
Fight Night: 56

All Together: 67

March 2016

Madness

DoS: 32
DoF: 22
DoM: 4
Fight Night: 50

All Together: 108

April 2016

DoS: 8
DoF: 17
DoM: 4
Fight Night: 52

All Together: 81

May 2016

Diamond Days happens this month in DoF

DoS: 10
DoF: 22
DoM: 4
Fight Night: 24

All Together: 60

June - Current 2016

DoS: 8
DoF: 5
DoM: 2
Fight Night: 9

All Together: 24

[DemiBob]

It actually looks like we do have less dueling now than we did 1-2 years ago, and the assertion that some of that could be from league burnout isn't an insane assumption.

[Andrea Anderson]

It actually looks like we do have less dueling now than we did 1-2 years ago, and the assertion that some of that could be from league burnout isn't an insane assumption.

Actually there are just players not coming out so much anymore. They drop off the map completely. Some who weren't even involved in leagues to begin with. Could there be some players burnt out? Yes, but there are upticks in duels post-leagues. This was one complaint that it felt like current duels are dead due to post-league activity of 2015. It has been proven wrong, as there is an upswing right after. It's only some months later that it begins to dwindle, which just shows the cycle nature of dueling that is the norm.

Edit: Also to add, Duels were going down months before IFL 2015 started, then rose after.

[DUEL Kheldar]

If we're not going to change anything, even though the days of healthfully attended regulation are over (if they ever existed), maybe we could at least acknowledge that it's a challenge for new duelers and think about ways to support new duelers who are dying of thirst in the regulation desert.

Not to derail the thread further, but a large percentage of the changes that have been made to the rules in recent history have been to improve the new/low ranked dueler experience. If you have other ideas, I'm sure we'd be happy to hear them.

[Nigel Alder]

Do something positive for the community!

Aside from discussing why a well liked event was taken away without it being discussed, or opinions actually gauged and weighed prior to the unilateral decision being made.

Do as I say and not as I do?

Where is this sense of positive community building when we flat out refuse to discuss why IFL can't be held or why someone else can't run it (which has precedence, btw)?

[Jake]

II think it's safe to say that leagues negatively impact regulation dueling.

Actually, it's not that safe.

It actually looks like we do have less dueling now than we did 1-2 years ago, and the assertion that some of that could be from league burnout isn't an insane assumption.

The numbers *have* been done before, but I really don't have time to dig them up at the moment.

http://www.duelingzone.com/dz/reports/shiftreports.cfm

The reports I compiled ran from 2004 to 2012, and only represent DoS, but it does a pretty good job of showing trending over time. We've definitely dropped from our 2004/2005 starting point.

It's entirely arguable that the leagues/recurring events, IFL, Ragnarok, Hyda, Madness, etc. do help inspire activity. We commonly saw spikes both before and after leagues like IFL started as people ramped up to participate, and the after-affects when people no longer had a league, but still wanted to duel. And then we see a trickle off. We do know for a fact that some of the old-timers only come back for/during those events (and then also duel regulation), and commonly disappear soon after. The leagues have *helped* to create a sustained dueling interest over time.

It's absolutely true that we do see some impact *during* leagues/events that can affect regulation dueling. If a big DoF thing is going, those folks that do DoF *and* the other sports, may spend more time doing DoF for a while. Likewise for DoM and DoS. So...DoS numbers may dip here, and DoM rise there. Some people, who may only do one sport (or whatever sport is NOT the current league event) may see a drop in the regulation of their desired sport.

Kal touched on it with the free market stuff.

Let's say that a supermarket does great business in an area. So much so that another competitor decides to open a store as well. The problem is, there's only X number of people in the area. So...what happens is that instead of both stores doing great business, they both end up sharing a percentage of the original # of shoppers. Store A gets less business. Store B gets some business, but not the amount of business A had in the beginning.

It makes sense for the leagues to cooperatively negotiate when they happen. So that they are not trying to share the same "shoppers". At least not at the same time. It makes sense to space things out, and to leave gaps, where people can try new things. Like DoG. One of the things that (*probably*) hurt DoG was trying to squeeze into a period when other things were going on. For people that didn't try out DoG, I would argue you missed out on a fun matrix. It also makes sense to leave deliberate gaps so people can take a break. Write stories. Or do whatever else they like to do, when not competing in a league.

Kal giving IFL a break this year isn't necessarily a bad thing. Running a league is a *lot* of work. Kal's doing both the technical stuff, and the administrative stuff, plus he's doing what he does for RoH/DoS, etc. It's a lot of work. More than you might imagine (unless you've run a league of your own).

Anyway...back to why it's not a bad thing. It provides a gap where someone else can try something. IG War. Duel Assassin. Ragnarok. Tag Team. There are lots of ideas floating around. But only so many months in the year, and only so many duelers (who are active enough) to participate in them. This is an opportunity for someone else to step in with something, try out an idea, and contribute something to the community.

[Rakeesh]

Where is this sense of positive community building when we flat out refuse to discuss why IFL can't be held or why someone else can't run it (which has precedence, btw)?

I don't think anyone's refusing to discuss it here. It seems like folks are to me, at least.

And there's no reason that a replacement event couldn't be run in its stead if folks are really craving something similar. Does it need to be called IFL for it to be effective? If IFL is taking a year off, would it be worth trying something else to see how a varied design might effect regulation and/or the community differently?

Whether or not Kalamere runs IFL is sort of his decision. Running events (especially ones as sprawling as IFL) because you feel pressured to do so isn't healthy.

So, then, the question becomes ... well, are you willing to step in for a year and take the weight of a big event to promote dueling on your shoulders? What about if a group of people work together to do it? Can you do it in such a way that promotes regulation and sustained activity? What would it look like? IFL? TDL? World League? Something else entirely?

There's opportunity here. It's easy to be bummed about not getting something you were hoping for. It's better to see what might be instead.

[Andrea Anderson]

I'd also like to add that some numbers might be down for other reasons

1: 2014 saw a change in DoS where SOA was no longer needed to challenge for a title. In the past you needed 10 duels ( win or loss ), and to stay above Warlord to challenge for a title. You needed to regain these 10 duels each time you wanted to challenge, twice per cycle. There is no no SOA. So numbers dropped there.

2: Talon of Redwin tournament started giving players WoLs for winning. Some players may have decided to forgo dueling and wait for these tournaments. The same can be said for All Rank Tournaments in DoM.

You add to the fact that some players just don't come around anymore or don't have the time, then it explains why the numbers are down. They were down when I first started coming around, and they rose when more new blood started to surface. Old players can't come around as often as they like, which is why some return for events like IFL. But these are all arguments/points brought up earlier in this thread.

Kal giving IFL a break this year isn't necessarily a bad thing. Running a league is a *lot* of work. Kal's doing both the technical stuff, and the administrative stuff, plus he's doing what he does for RoH/DoS, etc. It's a lot of work. More than you might imagine (unless you've run a league of your own).

Anyway...back to why it's not a bad thing. It provides a gap where someone else can try something. IG War. Duel Assassin. Ragnarok. Tag Team. There are lots of ideas floating around. But only so many months in the year, and only so many duelers (who are active enough) to participate in them. This is an opportunity for someone else to step in with something, try out an idea, and contribute something to the community.

Agreed 100%. The opportunity to host events is honestly the major issue when it comes to leagues and not so much dueling itself. It's an issue outside of leagues as well, one that causes DoM/DoF/DoS to shuffle around their own schedule to make sure they don't overlap things like Archmage Tournaments, WLT, and DQ's over one another. There's only so much space in a given year.

--

All and all there's many factors of why dueling numbers have dropped. The fact is that we can't point at leagues and say they are the cause.

Edited: Took out the part about Talon being made single elim, it's always been single elim.