Why do you use modifiers against lower ranks?

[Harris]

Tell me how we're supposed to know who's truly new and who's a veteran using a new screen name. Should we use magic?

[Jaycy Ashleana]

Both of you are missing the point.

Point - New dueler Joe Bloe. First night dueling wants to try the game out. Read the posted rules. Doesn't know about checking standings to see who is ranked as what. Get's a duel and while losing his opponent fancies/feints to pad the lead.

That now falls on their shoulders for being ignorant to standings?

Seems woefully counter-productive to draw in new and raw people.

And what are you suggesting to fix this?

ETA: frankly, btw, if someone has read the posted rules, I don't know how there is a claimed ignorance. I'm very confused as to how the currently posted rules are inadequate. They very clearly post who gets mods, when and why they get them, and what mods do. In fact, the game guide specifically refers to the only situation where someone is limited in mods (the diamond). What more is needed beyond a little bit of common sense?

ETA2: on the rules of rank, it talks about the standings (which is a visible link right under the rules of rank) so I find it very hard for someone to claim ignorance if they've read the rules. Again, add a dash of common sense.

[Wild Irish Rover]

Tell me how we're supposed to know who's truly new and who's a veteran using a new screen name. Should we use magic?

By that logic any new character is a former Diamond/Overlord/ArcMage. Let me show them who I am by flexing my muscle.

[Harris]

You didn't answer my question. You talk about "new" as if we all know who's truly new and who isn't. A new screen name does not equate to a new player. So, I'll ask again. How do we ascertain who's new?

[Wild Irish Rover]

I am no exception to the rule you are stating, but treating any new dueler as a potential upper echelon dueler can be dangerous. I was never ranked above M@A, Ruby, or Wizard in the respective sports.

From what I'm getting with the backlash I was better off minding my own with other games. I got curious this weekend and Googled dueling/Red Dragon.

From my stand point you guys are happy all on your own.

Enjoy.

[Harris]

And coming to the boards immediately to complain rather than seeking assistance in some form can be insulting. You didn't ask for help, you lost two duels and came straight to the forums to complain about modifiers. That's on you. That shows an absolute lack of resolve on your end entirely. I was more than happy to give you the tools to try and help you, but you'd prefer to take your ball and go home.

Good riddance.

[Wild Irish Rover]

Good riddance.

And no wonder why your player base is dwindling.

[Harris]

Good riddance.

And no wonder why your player base is dwindling.

Our player base dwindles because of people with your mindset. Complain first, complain loudly, and if that doesn't work, go away. You put in what you get out. So far what you've put in is whining. This is what you get out of it.

[Wild Irish Rover]

I raised a question.

Yes, you did help but undertones of mockery and claims of it being my own fault led to the ultimate decision. Maybe you should not be ambassador to first responses.

[Harris]

You're right. I'm a terrible ambassador. Ask anyone here.

Guess what? This is a player vs player game. It is on you. Again, mindset. If you're losing, pointing fingers first and foremost at the system is not going to help you. Learning how to work the system is going to do that, but you have to be willing to learn it in the first place.

And Jaycy's question of what you would do to fix this "problem" has still gone unanswered. Do you have a solution? Enlighten us.

[Wild Irish Rover]

As to that question, why not grant a one week (7 day), or full dueling week, of each sport where new participants are granted reprieve of being modded/fancied/Foci. I realize this now ventures more toward the General OOC boards. This grace begins on creation date, not on first date appeared in Chat.

[BardGallant]

Harris has already covered my thoughts on the matter of why use fancies against lower ranks with this statement:

Because I earned them. Because I'm trying to get an achievement badge. Because I'm working toward a personal WoL milestone. Because my character is supposed to be a no nonsense tough guy. Because there's a tournament ongoing I'm trying to win. Because I think the person I'm dueling is an alt and trying to sandbag me. Because I'm looking to make Emerald. Because I'm an Emerald and trying to build my win cushion before I challenge.

Though this character is not at all ranked, I do duel under alternate characters who frequently fluctuate between being high ranked to zero of the zeroes. I've never once achieved the highest ranks in any sport. Is it frustrating? Sure. Do I get mad when higher ranks use their fancies/feints/foci against me? No. Because I know that they're struggling just as much as I am to earn rank, to earn the right to challenge, and if I were them I'd use ever advantage I have to ensure I wasn't going to lose no matter what, too. Even if that means "picking on the lower ranks."

As to that question, why not grant a one week (7 day), or full dueling week, of each sport where new participants are granted reprieve of being modded/fancied/Foci. I realize this now ventures more toward the General OOC boards. This grace begins on creation date, not on first date appeared in Chat.

This is a ridiculous notion, because not everybody who is "new" is a character whose user name was created just yesterday. I know quite a handful of standard role-players whose character creation date goes back as far as 2005, but they have never dueled in their lives. I know. I was one of them. This particular character has an RDI creation date of 2008, but I was playing him loooooooooooong before I ever brought him over to Dragon's Mark and the Rings of Honor. I just never dueled with him. I still really don't. This is my caller personality. Once in a blue moon I may be encouraged to have him jump in the ring, but it's all in character for me. The character has no desire whatsoever to attain rank. This one doesn't, at any rate. My others...? Another matter.

So again. Like Harris said. You'd have to either be a mind reader, or have an eidetic memory regarding the standings as far back as the beginning of the sports ever being created to know for certain whether or not a character and player is in fact new to the duels. The only other option is to ask the player directly, and that could be considered rude. Most role-players I know are of the mindset that how long they've been playing doesn't matter, and creation date doesn't matter either. That's laughable, because everybody is always creating new characters all the time.

[Goldglo]

Before I get to the heart of the matter, I wanted to note something since it was raised on page 1 of the thread:

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that someone might not click on "Caller Tools" over at the Dueling Zone site in order to locate the matrices. That's certainly a possibility, but the availability of those tools is clearly noted here (http://www.ringsofhonor.org/community/theduels.php); at the bottom of that page, the following appears in a more noticable way than I'm listing below:

Additional Resources
The Dueling Zone provides a single-player practice game for Duel of Swords under its Games section, as well as copies of matrices for all three sports under Caller Tools.

As far as direct-linking the New Duelers Guide from the side panels on RoH, it's probably a good idea, but something the site administration would need to approve and arrange.

Now, as far as this thread goes, to address the amendment to the original question, which was , "All three uses of modifiers were used while leading the match. I understand the use of modifiers when losing against lower rank to try and even the score or lessen the gap. The use while leading is what is frustrating."

Why use a modifier when leading? For the same reason(s) you might use it when losing - to try to get to 5 points first. That may sound fairly trite, but that's the goal; get to 5 or more with that 1-point lead before your opponent does.

Folks have already weighed in with other reasons why characters with access to modifiers might use them, or not. At one point in my dueling carreer, I had a blanket policy to not use modifiers against lower ranks, especially Glass ranks; there's a thread someplace in the Archives where I explain why. Over time, and as the community has changed over the years, so has my position on that topic. I still have a former-Opal ranked character who won't use a modifier, ever. It was by no means easy to rank up to Emerald without mods and to get an Opal without mods, but it's possible.

Similarly, just because a player/character has modifiers available doesn't mean a win's guaranteed. For some examples, Velhelmi's player, who has a Glass character and no mods, cleaned my clock twice on Sunday pretty handily despite my use of modifiers.

Over in DoS, when Candy Hart, a Commoner character at the time with a 0-0-0 record, challenged for a Barony, she won easily despite no modifiers and with her opponent using several (go here: http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... hp?t=25391 to see the match results).

Long story short: modifiers can make it easier to win a duel, but are by no means an automatic path to victory.

More importantly - communication is the key. If a player wants to duel someone else and wants that someone else to leave their modifiers at the door - ask! The other player may say yes or they may say no, but without being asked the question, they're most likely not going to keep their modifiers on the sideline unless the character they're using has a reason to do so. It was noted earlier that a new player might not know to check the standings to look up someone's rank. That's a valid point. However, there's nothing stopping that player or that character from asking perspective opponents what their rank is (it happens quite often both from an IC and OOC perspective). Based on the answer, that character may choose to duel or not to duel the prospective opponent.

It's also been mentioned earlier in this thread that some duelers (players and/or characters) get offended when the higher ranks don't use modifiers against them (from an IC perspective, a character could argue that their opponent held back, didn't go all-out, etc.). There are plenty of folks who want mods used against them and plenty of folks who don't.

As to how to tell who's new and who's not from a screenname perspective - sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not. From a personal standpoint, I can sometimes tell that NewSN = VeteranDueler by how they duel - they do 'veteran' things or 'anti-Matt' things that hint at their not-newness. Likewise, if NewSN is out there throwing a load of Hooks, Uppercuts and Legblocks, it's a strong hint that they're really a new dueler and either trying to get familiar with the matrix or just not sure what they're doing yet. In neither of those situations are the NewSN's actions a guarantee that the player's new or a veteran and I realize that; I'm just saying that move-selection can be a strong hint as to possible dueling-newness.

How do you (general you) as a player let your opponents know which side of the fence you fall on? Simple: communication. And that communication can go both ways; NewSN can send an IM to VeteranSN and ask whether VeteranSN is willing to duel with limited or no modifiers. VeteranSN can ask NewSN if they need any dueling assistance, help understanding the rules, etc.

Communication is the key to both cooperative role-play and a positive experience, regardless of whether the dueling games are involved. Communicate, communicate, communicate. And if NewSN asks VeteranSN if they will duel without mods and VeteranSN says no, then NewSN can choose to not duel them or can still choose to duel them knowing mods are on the table, and adjust tactics accordingly. As I wrote before, modifiers are by no means a path to an easy win. Modifiers can certainly help, but they are not the end all and be all of dueling or winning.

--Matt

[Kheldar]

Matt beat me in here addressing the initial question, but I want to talk about the idea of adding rules limiting fancies on lower ranked duelers.

The lack of lower ranked/new duelers and the difficulty that can pose in rising in ranks is something we have worked extensively recently. Most of the rule changes in the past few years have been to aid in the lower ranked dueling experience. Each of the sports has added a program allowing low ranked duelers to add a teacher of a higher ranked dueler and gaining modifiers because of it. There are exclusively low ranked tournaments in each sport as well, most of which give a title which effectively bumps the winner up a rank. Magic has recently opened up all the moves to every dueler to take away some of the rank disparity. In addition every sport clears out losses and resets those with losing records back to zero on a regular basis. The games can have a steep learning curve, we understand that and don't want to penalize those who don't get it right away. (Almost no one is good right away, I fought nearly 100 matches to a dead even record when I started in fists)

I don't remember it ever being explicitly discussed to enforce mod limits across the board against unranked duelers though. There have been situations, and events where similar ideas have been used. Even in those situations though, the dueler being limited has been allowed to fight a rank ahead of the lower ranked dueler, so even if similar rules were in place, it wouldn't have changed either of your specific matches at all last night.

Generally I believe that it is better to aid the lower ranked dueler rather than limit the higher ranked dueler, and as I've said we've tried to do that in a number of ways. People don't like having things they've earned taken away from them, and if people deciding to not duel new people would be way worse than new duelers having to manage overcoming a few mods. Yes it is unfortunate we may lose some people who dislike losing immediately, but having or not having the mods isn't going to change that much. Others find the challenge the reason to come back, and seeing the mods in use elicit the 'Ooo I want to be able to do that' response.

Anyway, that's some of the thought behind the lack of a rule limiting fancies, as well as what we've done as an alternative.

-Nick

[G]

As to that question, why not grant a one week (7 day), or full dueling week, of each sport where new participants are granted reprieve of being modded/fancied/Foci. I realize this now ventures more toward the General OOC boards. This grace begins on creation date, not on first date appeared in Chat.

Why not duel non-ranked duelists?