Rules Proposal: Keeperships

[DUEL Lem]

Firstly, actually break down those challenge numbers Lem provided. Out of the challenges so far in 2012, 5 of them were issued by non-Mages. That's half. There are currently 17 Mages on the standings. There are also 17 Enchanters to Wizards. Limiting Keeper challenges to just Mages effectively cuts the challenge pool in half. For what reason? To give the title more prestige for the upper ranks by limiting the challenge pool? I think the reason DoM has thrived is because of the lower ranks and cutting them off from Keeper titles seems to be a strange punishment for that to me. It also means the ART won't offer Keeper titles anymore when they go vacant, which to me has always been a boon to that tournament and increases the participation. So my biggest question is, right now what good comes from making the Keeper title Mage only? Is it going to increase challenges or is it more likely to lessen them with a smaller pool?

I feel like we're focusing too much on challenge matches in this conversation. If DoM had 30 challenges a year and only averaged 5-10 duels per week, that would not be as big of a success as DoM averaging 20-30 duels per week.

Also, ARTs will likely be much more rare. We're not hosting them every other month from now on. They are difficult to plan, difficult to host and can sometimes have as few as 4 participants. One of the main purposes of ARTs was to be low rank friendly. Twin Win Nights and RoK are very low rank friendly.

The fact remains that Mages can challenge for Keeper right now. Just because they may not want to for whatever reason doesn't change that fact. Trying to make Keeper more desirable to the upper ranks is effectively going to cost challenges to do so, as evidenced by the amount of lower ranks that challenge presently. Is it worth that price to *maybe* increase the prestige of the title? Is that going to be a huge boon for the sport in the long run? As I stated before, I think the lower ranks are heavily responsible for keeping DoM churning, and the idea of not liking a titleholder being a low rank primarily stems from the influence of the other two sports. I don't see the negative, in DoM, of a lower rank having a Keeper title. What's the bonafide reason, other than people not personally liking it? Is it hurting the sport somehow?

How do you know if there's better solution until you try it? We have 7 new mages in the last year since DoM4 was introduced. Once they hit 15 WoL, the only new thing for them to chase is Archmage and 100,000,000 WoL. With only mages at Keeper it gives players more to do after getting 15 WoL. Can they challenge now? Yes of course. But to what end? To say they beat an enchanter? To gain EF which gives no benefit, and may actually harm them if they don't know how to use it. If it it's mage only and offers a 4th focus, then it helps them win AMTs and any regular duel against a mage.

As far as Elemental Fury is concerned, I love it as a wild card in challenges. It adds an element of strategy out of the blue for both combatants, and for a lower ranked Keeper, it can be clutch. Granted, if you push Keepers to Mage only, then certainly, change it to an additional focus. But as long as the lower ranks can challenge, EF should reasonably stay as it is. If anything I think it should be expanded to allow use during regular hours in matches against upper ranks. An Enchanter Keeper should be able to use EF against Sorcerors and above in my opinion. This allows everyone to familiarize themselves with the spell and actually gives lower ranked Keepers an in game advantage during regular hours that can help push them toward Mage.

So we give low ranks more tools be make them almost as powerful as mage? In the above scenario, I would give the advantage to the sorcerer with EF if they are fighting a mage. 2 Foci and EF vs. 3 Foci and NR. The EF is much more powerful than the NR. Especially when the duel is likely to be over in 6 rounds.

As far as familiarity, we do offer EF gems.

[DUEL Lem]

What rank was Spell when she challenged and created that SL? Not a Mage. What rank was Candy when she decided to take part in that SL and challenge for the tower? Not a Mage.

And they don't have to be Keepers either. And they can also make mage and create a storyline. Someone wants to create a storyline with a Tower? Awesome, that should motivate them to get 15 wins and go grab a tower. Again, Jacen and Siophra just made mage in 2 months, and 4 months respectively.

I honestly don't know what to say in response to this. Lem cites that challenges have increased, but this is somehow negative? After going through all these changes to increase activity across the board DoM wants *less* challenges now to increase their value? That makes no sense to me. DoM isn't at such a high point that they can start implementing restrictions. DoM4 is barely a year old. It's been a boon for the sport, but going so far as to changing the rules so that there's less of anything seems reckless to me.

I'm lost here. In my opinion, the most important way to gauge DoM's health is weekly duels, new characters/players, and retention of those characters (meaning they gain rank and don't burn out). Challenges are great, but not my top 3 priority in DoM. Again, I feel like you are focusing on the challenges as if the main reason we brought up this change was to create more challenges. That was certainly not my main intent. If challenges increased from these changes, great. If they decrease dramatically, we would look at rescinding the proposed change. My reasons were:
1) I think with the influx of mages we have seen and more than likely will see, the Keepers should move to mage only.
2) I think EF is totally broken and completely over powered.

[Harris]

How do you know if there's better solution until you try it? We have 7 new mages in the last year since DoM4 was introduced. Once they hit 15 WoL, the only new thing for them to chase is Archmage and 100,000,000 WoL. With only mages at Keeper it gives players more to do after getting 15 WoL. Can they challenge now? Yes of course. But to what end? To say they beat an enchanter? To gain EF which gives no benefit, and may actually harm them if they don't know how to use it. If it it's mage only and offers a 4th focus, then it helps them win AMTs and any regular duel against a mage.

So the trade here is giving people more do to once they hit 15 WoL, even though they'd have the exact same thing to do, challenge for Keeper? I don't understand the logic. If the Keeper title was meant for RP and not to offer an in game boon, why does it matter if a Mage possibly stomps an Enchanter if it's going to create RP? The only boon is possibly a greater challenge from a dueling perspective due to the matching ranks. And even then, it's not set in stone. DoM has better parity than it did before. And the fact remains, a Mage Keeper can still then be challenged by other Mages anyway. Is there a legitimate issue from Mages that they're bored? If so, that's an easy fix. Challenge for a Keeper title and RP. It seems like this is an entirely duel specific proposal, with little to no thought given to the impact on RP that may come with it.

So we give low ranks more tools be make them almost as powerful as mage? In the above scenario, I would give the advantage to the sorcerer with EF if they are fighting a mage. 2 Foci and EF vs. 3 Foci and NR. The EF is much more powerful than the NR. Especially when the duel is likely be over in 6 rounds.

We'll have to agree to disagree. EF is a one time use spell. At max you might net a full point, assuming you don't trade with the mage spell. I don't see EF as being superomgoverpowered in any fashion, especially since it's a single use spell. It's enough to turn the tide of a duel at a key moment and I'm fine with that. But that's opinion. I think axing EF based on differences in approaching it strategically is a poor idea.

I'm lost here. In my opinion, the most important way to gauge DoM's health is weekly duels, new characters/players, and retention of those characters (meaning they gain rank and don't burn out). Challenges are great, but not my top 3 priority in DoM. Again, I feel like you are focusing on the challenges as if the main reason we brought up this change was to create more challenges. That was certainly not my main intent. If challenges increased from these changes, great. If they decrease dramatically, we would look at rescinding the proposed change. My reasons were:
1) I think with the influx of mages we have seen and more than likely will see, the Keepers should move to mage only.
2) I think EF is totally broken and completely over powered.

No, I'm confused as to what about Keepers is broken that requires a change when I think DoM is chugging along better than it has in a long time. I don't want an unnecessary change to break that stride. I don't think EF is broken. Again, agree to disagree.

My entire point is this. Mages can challenge for Keeper already. Restricting the title to Mages only is banking on the *HOPE* that people will come to DoM, stick with it long enough to make Mage, then challenge for a title. I would be behind this if DoM was drawing players from somewhere other than DoS and DoF. But if players are already reluctant to take a crack at the sport I don't think this is going to entice them further. The reason for the influx of Mages in my opinion is DoM4 and has nothing to do with Keepers, so why change it at all and potentially cut down challenges with little to no upside?

[Goldglo]

Personal opinion: Keep the All Ranks Tournaments over 'Twin Win' nights. Tournaments are opportunities to have bigger/different draws than regular dueling nights. Yeah, tournaments as a whole are not super easy to plan for and run, but I do think they've got a better potential for RP and people-draw than normal dueling does, even if you can get 2 WoL for a single win on the Twin Win nights.

Giving away free wins on a regular or semi-regular basis is not something I'm a fan of (again, personally). That's not to say it's a horrible idea, but it's just not one that I particularly like, especially if it comes at the expense of other events like All-Ranks Tournaments.

--Matt

[Candy Hart]

There seems to be a lot being said and by this point I don't know that I feel like I'm following everything... but given that I'm currently a Keeper that got a Tower due to the current rules, I thought I would respond.

1. I like the RP and the strategy of the elemental focus. Despite not dueling in DoM, I have interactions with Candy as a character with DoM people. She's come and watched a number of challenges just to see the turn out and the RP of the EFs were something I enjoyed.

2. If it had not been for lower ranks being able to challenge, I likely would not have tried out DoM. What happened was: I have an Opal... somehow I got a Barony.. and I thought.. okay, let's see if I can get a tower too and round that out. I also wanted to do SL stuff with FireStar and the Fire Tower, though I fell short of that goal.

3. Twin Win night sucked for me. I had all losses that night. A lot of losses. And I haven't been much of the spirit to have a go since, though eventually I will need to for activity. Perhaps if having a Tower allowed me to use an EF or extra Foci in regular dueling I'd feel like I had more going for me.

And they don't have to be Keepers either. And they can also make mage and create a storyline. Someone wants to create a storyline with a Tower? Awesome, that should motivate them to get 15 wins and go grab a tower.

4. The SLs spawned from the characters being keepers or wanting a tower--influenced by the elements. So without the Towers, there would not have been a Fire Isle SL or Candy's involvement with it. What I'm saying is that SL would not exist because someone was a mage. Part of reason why I challenged when I did was because I was hoping to defend with FireStar and then have 30 days for both in order to be able to play with an SL. Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to do that. But with the need to get 15 WoL? Specially at the rate I'm going? A FireStar/Tower SL wouldn't have even been an idea.

[Nayun]

Also, ARTs will likely be much more rare. We're not hosting them every other month from now on. They are difficult to plan, difficult to host and can sometimes have as few as 4 participants. One of the main purposes of ARTs was to be low rank friendly. Twin Win Nights and RoK are very low rank friendly.

Personal opinion: Keep the All Ranks Tournaments over 'Twin Win' nights. Tournaments are opportunities to have bigger/different draws than regular dueling nights. Yeah, tournaments as a whole are not super easy to plan for and run, but I do think they've got a better potential for RP and people-draw than normal dueling does, even if you can get 2 WoL for a single win on the Twin Win nights.

Giving away free wins on a regular or semi-regular basis is not something I'm a fan of (again, personally). That's not to say it's a horrible idea, but it's just not one that I particularly like, especially if it comes at the expense of other events like All-Ranks Tournaments.

--Matt

Agreed on both. All-Ranks tournament are something I really look forward to. The RP of it all with the current keepers picking out their theme for the seasons is just boss. Chyth's ART, for example, was really well planned out.

[Artemus Kurgen]

Neo leaves, and you're all ready trying to change things?

I'm pretty much going to back everything Harris has brought up. DoM as a sport is not in any position to start altering its layout further after the massive overhaul that is DoM4.

As someone who made Mage under the old system? I loved challenges. I loved getting PM's from Vinny, or Vanion griping because my chosen spells at Sorcerer were MS and GF. MS gets an advantage over IM and trades with NR. It essentially became the backup to shut down Mage Powers. Then GF as a balancing defense? Strategically, to me, there wasn't any better combination of spells. Then add EF to that? I hardly used the thing, just kept it as that Ace in the Hole for a clutch. As with any other spell like IM or NR, Elemental Fury has its strategic niche. Keep it.

As the winner of the first ART, I loved it. I enjoyed my character being able to joke around at Topaz and Brig naming a tournament after him! Its a great event and without it you don't have anything other than RoK to offer Lower ranks as something to do. Other than Neophyte.

Lem? Mur? What made you fall in love with DoM and stick around with it this long?

DoM4 is hardly a year old and you want to change things further. For the life of me I can't see the long-reaching reason behind more changes on top of what has all ready occurred. Being able to challenge at LOW ranks is what BRINGS people to DoM, you can't do that in the others outside of special circumstances.

[DUEL Goblin]

It's not a free hit. It's an added layer of strategy at almost every level. It's only an overkill/free hit when a higher rank has it.

It tends to be when I use it, not literally of course. The choices someone has is 1. Ignore it 2. Run from it and hide in a mini matrix of substandard moves which in my opinion is dueling LoLBad. It feels like dueling starting 1-1 or 1-0, or a contorted style of dueling that hides the depth of the matrix. My .02.

I honestly don't know what to say in response to this. Lem cites that challenges have increased, but this is somehow negative? After going through all these changes to increase activity across the board DoM wants *less* challenges now to increase their value?

I probably worded this quite poorly. I didn't mean that more challenges are bad or negative. I meant that I'm more concerned with regular dueling. So if a change could in theory be proven to increase regular duels +20% and another mutually exclusive change challenges +20% I would expect the first to be better for DoM in the long run. If only that regular duels lead to rank over time and therefore challenges.

Unless there's a good reason to change the status quo, why do it? DoM had the worst parity and was broken before DoM4. That's at least a part of the reason the numbers were so low for all those years. What's broken now that needs fixing, exactly? I don't understand this rush to make more changes as opposed to letting the sport sit for awhile. If it ain't broken, don't break it.

You're right, there should be good reasons to make changes. I also don't think anything is necessarily broken, this is just a discussion to see if things can be tweaked in a positive manner. No rush, just a discussion.

[DUEL Goblin]

Giving away free wins on a regular or semi-regular basis is not something I'm a fan of (again, personally). That's not to say it's a horrible idea, but it's just not one that I particularly like, especially if it comes at the expense of other events like All-Ranks Tournaments.

When Neo first started implementing these giveaways I was of a similiar opinion. Over time the activity increases and the fact that some characters ranked up and stayed active has eased my concerns.

Added here and I tried to put back Matt's post off a quote. Think I hit edit and overwrote what Matt said accidentally instead of quoting him.

[DUEL Goblin]

Neo leaves, and you're all ready trying to change things?

Only if the changes are positive. Its not about just shuffling things around - but seeing if we can continue to make positive changes for the sport.

Lem? Mur? What made you fall in love with DoM and stick around with it this long?

1. Sentimentality. Old characters/players that won't be back and old memories as DoM was where I started. I too remember how hard it was way back when to make mage. Though I like seeing it easier for others now, and easier for self if I want to bring an alt to the Isle.
2. Matrix. Everyone gets burned out from dueling game-wise. But our matrix has a depth to it that the other games don't have though DoF comes close. I get tired of dueling at magic far less often and find interesting little things in duels much more often. DoM's matrix takes a lot longer to master (if ever), and there are a lot more different ways for players to approach it.
3. RP. From the usage of the terrain on the Isle in dueling to all the inventive things one can do with the spells it offers more ways to entertain yourself while dueling in my opinion. I've always had 2-3 different ways to do each spell and I come up with more over time. Watching anime and fantasy movies has given me ideas too.

None of the rule changes in the past or suggested here really affect the above, however I had more fun in DoF from 04-06. I remembered that when I came back and its why I supported DoM4 so much, I really wish it was there prior. Even with the above three what I called the 'broken DoM' wasn't much fun. I don't think the above rules suggestions are huge, and if everyone loves EF or nobody wants to duel at magic if they can't challenge at 2 wins then obviously they're not good ideas then.

Being able to challenge at LOW ranks is what BRINGS people to DoM, you can't do that in the others outside of special circumstances.

One of the reasons I wanted to bring this here and ask the community. Is it really the ability to challenge that brings players in? Or is the RP/Matrix? Or something else? Would pushing keeper to mage only cause some to not want to participate more often? Or would some who might be satisfied at Enchanter/Sorcerer want to duel more to gain mage to challenge? Would EF replaced with another focus cause more activity or less?

[Seirichi]

For me? It was the ability to challenge that brought me in. I'm a try-hard and like the ability to challenge and fight someone with a huge rank advantage. The matrix was somewhat off-putting, but I learned to deal and as time went on it turned out not to be so bad.

When I first started magic.. Nooooo one was challenging. So it was fun to at least attempt a challenge when there was nothing else going on.

[DUEL Lem]

Lem? Mur? What made you fall in love with DoM and stick around with it this long?

Matrix first, RP second. Love the DoM matrix. I like the DoF matrix too, but I am terrible at RP'ing the DoF moves. I also like DoS's fun events and drama, but DoM matrix and RP always keeps me on the Isle. I can think of endless ways to RP a duel in magic.

Being able to challenge at LOW ranks is what BRINGS people to DoM, you can't do that in the others outside of special circumstances.

I am curious if this is true for most people? I dueled in magic for 4 years before Keepers had even been thought of. The only thing to challenge for back then was Archmage. If this is true for most people, then what draws you to DoF and DoS? The matrix, RP, challenge of gaining rank?

[DUEL Lem]

Personal opinion: Keep the All Ranks Tournaments over 'Twin Win' nights. Tournaments are opportunities to have bigger/different draws than regular dueling nights. Yeah, tournaments as a whole are not super easy to plan for and run, but I do think they've got a better potential for RP and people-draw than normal dueling does, even if you can get 2 WoL for a single win on the Twin Win nights.

Giving away free wins on a regular or semi-regular basis is not something I'm a fan of (again, personally). That's not to say it's a horrible idea, but it's just not one that I particularly like, especially if it comes at the expense of other events like All-Ranks Tournaments.

--Matt

Historically, All Rank Tournaments without free wins or a Tower have very low turnout.

DoM is already heavy on tournaments since we have a 2 month cycle rather than 3 month cycle. We used to have at least 12 per year for AMT and ART. That's a heavy burden on a small DoM staff. One of the main reasons we continue to be a 2 month cycle is to be newbie friendly. Negative WoL get zeroed out in 2 months rather than 3.

[DUEL Lem]

So the trade here is giving people more do to once they hit 15 WoL, even though they'd have the exact same thing to do, challenge for Keeper? I don't understand the logic.

I think I've given my opinion a few times, but for me I don't challenge because I don't care to challenge a lower ranked opponent and I don't care for EF either. The tower offers nothing of interest for me. An extra foci and a chance to compete against a fellow mage? Now that is something I would be interested in. I also think that attracting new characters is just as important as retaining the old ones. To retain me as a player rather than primarily a caller, I'd like to have more of a challenge. I'd like to go for All Title Holder at some point, but I want it to be an epic match when I do challenge. Ultimately, I'm only 1 opinion though.

I'm curious, why has Harris never challenged? I think the only challenge I saw for Harris was for Archmage when the AM fell below 15 WoL? Isn't Harris more of the type to look for a big challenge? Would Harris want to challenge a Keeper who has negative WoL, or a Keeper who is the only other active triple crown winner?

[Artemus Kurgen]

Lem? Mur? What made you fall in love with DoM and stick around with it this long?

Matrix first, RP second. Love the DoM matrix. I like the DoF matrix too, but I am terrible at RP'ing the DoF moves. I also like DoS's fun events and drama, but DoM matrix and RP always keeps me on the Isle. I can think of endless ways to RP a duel in magic.

Being able to challenge at LOW ranks is what BRINGS people to DoM, you can't do that in the others outside of special circumstances.

I am curious if this is true for most people? I dueled in magic for 4 years before Keepers had even been thought of. The only thing to challenge for back then was Archmage. If this is true for most people, then what draws you to DoF and DoS? The matrix, RP, challenge of gaining rank?

Addressing the first answer then the second.

Looking between your response and Mur's, you both list RP as your last reason for sticking around. The matrix and dueling being the first or second respectively. Along with that you both have mentioned this discussion is to see what changes would increase dueling on a daily/weekly basis. I really don't think throwing free wins at your dueling base on a regular basis really encourages roleplay or dueling for fun.

What it COULD lead to is a saturated field of mages. That's how DoM was when I joined. Nothing *but* mages. I learned the matrix dueling Topaz, Wil, Esper, Vanion, Farek, Vinny, and Face. I was also stuck at Sorcerer for almost 2 years, but that was more related to hitting the Rank Wall. It was that field of duelists and characters that taught me, if you want to get good at a sport, you duel up. You duel everyone above your rank. If you want to get rank? Stick with dueling others on the same tier as yourself.

What makes an Enchanter/Sorcerer less challenge worthy than a Mage? Challenging or defending while under a restriction makes dueling interesting. From a RP stand point I loved the fact that Artemus holding the Tower of Earth for nearly 2 years as a Sorcerer stuck in the craw of Mage characters like Vanion. Mages as Keeper Only has been part of DoM as long as I can remember, but watching Enchanters and Sorcerers defend Towers from Mages is what I have always loved about this sport. It's one of the things that keeps me around. Certainly anyone could come in, make Enchanter, wait 2 weeks then challenge. However, challenging for a Tower is the easy part. Winning the challenge, then KEEPING the Tower is the real test of any duelist. Defending your station.