Suggestion: Rank Changes

[MurOllavan]

Few more.
Jake- FF,FT were added to stop perfect offense with offensive advanced spells. And they work extremely well, making higher rank vs lowest rank duels easier. They are, as people stated, total garbage in the 8X8 matrix versus another of the same. But that they grow until they are crucial in the full matrix, and are necessary in the app vs mage duels pretty much to not get blown out everytime.

Max- Definately a different way to look at. And I did say once or twice that the rank differential is quite overstated by others. I thought the same when I first went to DoF. Took me awhile, but I learned. The difference is that I always had certain chances with other matrixes that don't exist for the 8X8 matrix in DoM. That's the way I used to look at it, a neat trick that enabled me to go from many losses to a many ties. I chose to duel mages mostly when I was an apprentice, and stayed one as a result. This was when room counts were higher in DoM and so was the full list of players, both rarely seen and nightly. I had a choice to duel other apprentices when I wanted. Players today often duel either an app or another higher rank , however that rank is usually a mage or the A.M. Hence, my arguments above.

[DUEL Esperwind]

Perhaps I am an exception, but I actually enjoy facing a Mage as an apprentice. It isn't as one sided as you think. It comes down to people who learn and know how to use the matrix, and those that don't.

[Farek]

Enjoyment and success are not one in the same. While a challenge is good to undertake, and while you're right that an apprentice facing a mage isn't an impossible task, it is a very uphill battle to say the least.

While I agree with your statement that understanding and learning the matrix is important, the fact can't be denied that the mage has five more choices for each round.

It's also safe to assume that the mage has at least an equal understanding of the matrix than any given apprentice.

So you take the advantages of, at best, an even playing field as far as comprehension goes, the advantage of five extra spells, and the ability to work an apprentice over with rounds of invulnerability (a shield after a WB, for example), and you have a situation where the apprentice is going to have to get A) really lucky or B) hope for a glaring mistake, neither of which should be the ingredients for victory on any regular basis.

[DUEL Random]

Here's my 2c on proposal #3 (changing the basic 8 matrix), because I like being a devil's advocate.

Looking solely at the basic 8x8 matrix, the simplest solution to break perfect defenses seems to be to alter the matrix so that FF gains an advantage over DI, AR, and SH.

Advantages:
1) Gets rid of the perfect defense problem w/out adding another spell
2) More attacking as defense is no longer as certain; also FT gains more strategic value

Disadvantages:
1) Could overpower FF
2) Same ol' spell progression
3) FT still stinks in app vs app


If the FF method is too overpowering, then there's the more complicated route of making DI gain an advantage over AR and SH (which makes sense if you consider DI to be the analogue of Dos SS and AR/SH the analogue of the DoS parries) and making FF gain an advantage/hit over DI to keep the latter from being overpowered.

Advantages:
1) Same as above
2) Same as above, except FF gains strategic value
3) The way DI is rp'd (as a dynamic defense) suggests an advantage over static defenses

Disadvantages:
1) Could overpower DI
2) As above
3) FF and FT still stink in app vs app

Of course, the parts of the matrix I don't know, being only an apprentice, could render this entire post moot due to massive repercussions to the extended section. But I figured I might as well give it a try.

Also, my 2c on the rank changes: Instead of adding a spell at apprentice, since you're getting rid of Wizard let Enchanter choose two spells, and then one spell per rank from there. Also, if you want to add AB to the list of starting spells, why not switch FF and AB, since FF only really gets effective as one progresses?

[Dimitri]

If you really think about using FF in RP way. The fog kind of fills the whole ring so then you can't really DI out of the ring. That is also thinking of it in a RP way.

[DUEL Farek]

I know we already discussed this personally, but for the sake of informing everyone else and continuing this discussion:

Giving FF an advantage over armor, shield, and displacement would overpower it to a wild point.

It already has its way with the advanced matrix, and giving it an extra three victories versus the basic matrix would make it too powerful.

Secondly, switching AB and FF wouldn't work, because you'd leave the basic 8 matrix with two moves that could stop the AB. This is just replacing one problem with the matrix with another. Taking FF out would also make FT almost useless. It needs to stay, if not for the sake of not completely wrecking FT.

While I've always thought that DI should beat FF on a logical level, we've gotta be careful about making actual changes to the matrix. While that is probably an eventual step, I'm not sure that's really necessary at this point.

Here's a synopsis of what we have so far.

Armor, Shield, and Displace are easily abused using the basic 8 matrix.

Foul Fog is useless, as shield and armor work just as well with less negative consequences

By adding Arctic Blast to the basic 8, you'd take care of both problems at once without having to mess with the actual matrix, thus avoiding balancing problems.

Basically, armor, shield, and displace get weaker and foul fog gets stronger, but armor and shield still retain their dominance over foul fog.


My question is this: Does anyone see a major flaw in this idea? It seems to me to be the best and simplest solution to this problem, but there could be a negative effect (or an incidental effect on something else) that would make this theory unworkable.

[MurOllavan]

Thoughts-

1. FF is already great vs adv spells, so any pluses to it at all would probably overpower it.

2. Switching FF and AB might even hurt, and would harm the fact that FF and FT are in the 8X8 so that apprentices can duel higher ranks. Without FF anymore apps would severely suffer vs higher ranks.

3. Why not give apps more one spell? The idea about giving two out at enchanter is nice, but that is incompatible with changing the matrix. It seems to be either/or. I'd actually argue that given today's environment having apps with 9 spells would help keep the playing field a little level.

4. The other idea about DIS gaining an adv over arm, shield is ok. I would say that even giving another adv, just one, to FF overpowers it however. But this idea seems somewhat ok. Except that in two out of the three cases, AB would be hitting those spells for a full point, whereas this option only gives the person trying to stop the perfect d an adv. That's the only thing I can see as a con vs giving an extra spell.

[Deluthan]

3. Why not give apps more one spell? The idea about giving two out at enchanter is nice, but that is incompatible with changing the matrix. It seems to be either/or. I'd actually argue that given today's environment having apps with 9 spells would help keep the playing field a little level.

From what I've read so far ... how about giving Apprentices 9 spells with Arctic Blash and remove the Wizard rank to drop Mage to 15 WoL?

[Farek]

That's the idea.

If you place AB onto the basic matrix (making 9 spells) you do multiple things. You negate perfect defense using Armor, Shield, and Displace, you make foul fog somewhat useful at the lower levels, and you make fear touch also slightly more useful as a result.

I think this idea is great because it solves so many things with one simple change. At this point, there's hardly even a reason for an apprentice to use foul fog against another apprentice. Shield can do anything FF does and it beats FF and FT, unlike FF itself.

This matrix can hardly be considered a basic 8 since it really only has six viable choices (since FF and FT are far underpowered versus the other basic 8 moves), IMO, and adding the arctic blast would make all 9 rather good choices.