Our Current Plans

[Alasdair Galloway]

Hey folks!

So as not to leave everyone in the dark, I wanted to discuss what the DoS team is looking to do for the future.

Right now we have two vacant titles, and the current plan is to leave them that way until the next ART. This leads into the discussion once more of possibly reducing the number of titles. Activity is down, and our community is getting smaller. 8 Baronies along with the OL title feels like way too many titles for the size of the community as is.

However before doing that, I'd like to test out something first. I wanted to originally test this at the start of the Winter Cycle, but with the vacancies I want to push this back to next cycle. The plan is to allow for Barons to challenge other Barons. The winner gets to choose which Barony to keep, while the other is vacated and offered up into the ART. I think this helps solve a couple of issues: 1, it will reduce the number of Baronies that are in play, acting like something of a rolling reduction of titles instead of permanently shelving some of them and; 2, it will give more incentive for people to join the ART if titles are available.

I'll give more details when the next cycle comes closer, but it would be a test for a cycle or two before making any permanent changes. Also I would want them to be free of any tests or intercessions to basically make the challenges as simple as possible and keep it between the two Barons only.

Related to the ART, the plan is also to change the Talon of Redwin from being an automatic prize and instead one that must be chosen. The Barony Challenge Grant will still accompany it, and it might be changed to test-free if picked by a Warlord since they won't gain the benefit of the extra fancy the Talon gives.

So to summarize:

1. The current vacant Baronies will stay that way until the ART. This will also go for any other titles should they be retired this cycle.
2. Baron vs. Baron challenges are coming for the Spring 2024 Cycle. This will first be ran as a test for a few cycles to see if it should be permanently implemented.
3. The Talon of Redwin will be changed to a chosen prize for all ARTs going forward. The Grant may be changed should Warlords choose it as a reward.
4. Reducing the number of Baronies is not currently being planned, but the possibility has been discussed. We want to see how Baron vs. Baron challenges impact the title scene first before making any decisions.

Any questions, comments, concerns, feedback, or just discussions or ideas are welcome! I would ask that you post here this way the entire community can join in the discussion.

Thanks!

[Nayun]

Sounds interesting. The testing period could make for a pretty fun mini-event for that section of the year to try and incentivize pitting Barons vs one another. Looking forward to see what happens.

[Delahada]

Hi, Alasdair!

First of all, thanks for opening your thoughts up to the discussion of the community again.

Personally, I am still against the reduction of baronies. With the exception of one. I like the history and story that went into the creation of the baronial manors in the first place, changing ring numbers to districts. I love how each district in the city has a barony. Even though they have no official power in their districts over anything, I think it creates the opportunity for great stories, even if they aren't being written out in any great length and posted on the forums. I'm guilty of this. I get great ideas but have so little time to actually do the writing.

That said: the one that I think we could do without is Cadentia. It doesn't fit on the map, unless someone does a complete overhaul of the map to create a new one and adds it into the city of Rhydin. Some great story came out of its addition to the baronies at first, but the initial enthusiasm has dwindled. That's just my opinion, though, based mostly on how much I like the map and its city-centric uniformity.

Also: I do not like the idea of opening up the Talon of Redwin as a prize that just any character of any rank can win. I think it tarnishes its original concept as being a low rank prize. Personally, I never liked adding a baronial challenge grant to the prize. Any time I've entered a character to try to win the Talon, my only motivation has been only that: to win the Talon. There's an achievement for it! Getting a baronial challenge grant on top of it does not give me more incentive to try with a lower ranked character. It seems like there are too many grants being given away nowadays anyway. I miss the good old days of having a tournament specifically for lower ranks. I understand why this was changed, but I still miss it.

On the topic of too many grants... None of the ones offered at the All Ranks Tournaments motivate me to take part either. Usually it's the RP prizes that do absolutely nothing to enhance the game, but encourage and promote the creation of more story, that entices me. There have been a couple of times now in which I've participated in a Swords All Ranks Tournament, won the entire thing, on characters other than this one, and turned down the Test Free Overlord Challenge Grant for something else (or nothing at all) instead.

There have been so few challenges lately that Intercession grants go to waste, too. There are always two of those floating around to be used every cycle, too. One comes from the All Ranks Tournament, a prize that can be chosen, and the other one comes from the Warden of Overlook. I've held that extra title, as it were, five times now, and I think I've only used the King's Decree once. Or maybe I'm confusing that with the time I asked Karma to use her intercession grant when Hope challenged Sal. I don't remember, but the point remains. Those grants don't see a lot of use.

All that said... I do see some merit in allowing Barons to challenge other Barons. Especially for me, where I have a personal goal of having Sal get that achievement for having all baronies in his career. I've only got two more to go there, and I have to wait for someone to take the current one away from him before I can move on to going for one of the two others. One of the two I need to get for him his Dockside, so it could be enticing if there was an option in the next ART where it will be offered as a prize to be able to choose to swap out baronies should I do well enough to choose it as a prize. Failing that, allowing Barons to challenge other Barons would allow me to have Sal challenge Michelle for Cadentia without having to first lose or toss my current title and be penalized for it. So I'm not totally against that.

And... This has been my opinion word-vomited onto the page.

[PrlUnicorn]

Right now we have two vacant titles, and the current plan is to leave them that way until the next ART. This leads into the discussion once more of possibly reducing the number of titles. Activity is down, and our community is getting smaller. 8 Baronies along with the OL title feels like way too many titles for the size of the community as is.

I don't see the point in leaving them open that long other than avoiding the staff having to conduct a full on tournament in live chat. Perhaps, a month long event of counting duels during that time might work as well. Less work on the staff and tests the interests of the community at large in gaining the titles. Why a month minimum? Some players only check in intermittently and a week to two weeks is too short a time as possibly evidenced by the recent Friday the 3th event. Notice on 30 Sept for a one week event starting the next day is too short a time for anything like that even for some relatively active players.

However before doing that, I'd like to test out something first. I wanted to originally test this at the start of the Winter Cycle, but with the vacancies I want to push this back to next cycle. The plan is to allow for Barons to challenge other Barons. The winner gets to choose which Barony to keep, while the other is vacated and offered up into the ART. I think this helps solve a couple of issues: 1, it will reduce the number of Baronies that are in play, acting like something of a rolling reduction of titles instead of permanently shelving some of them and; 2, it will give more incentive for people to join the ART if titles are available.

Since the problem has been determined to be lack of activity, maybe the root causes of that lack of activity should be addressed. Let's be honest here, some of those reasons might not be appropriate for the public boards.

I'm not opposed to Baron on Baron challenges. However, I think those challenges should have some limitations. For example, if a Baron has not been active in X period of time for regulation dueling then the title should be open to another Baron challenging for it. Having it be open game with no restrictions at all might inadvertently punish an active player/title holder. If the goal is to increase participation, turning already active players into targets might discourage their participation in future.

Here is another option. Many years ago, there was talk of a title tier between Baron and Overlord called Duke.
That could be used this way: Instead of permanently taking away a baronial title, have the winner of a Baron on Baron contest take over both baronies and have the right to call themselves Duke/Duchess as holder of two or more baronies. Should the Duke lose a challenge, the winner could then choose which barony to keep leaving the 'Duke' with the remaining one and returning to being a Baron. This way, the districts and the baronial manors remain intact without causing the desire to redraw the map. It leaves the current titles available for future use when activity increases.

As for Loyal and Renegade status, that opens the possibility of a 'Duke' declaring one alignment for one barony and another for a different one to balance things OR increasing the amount either way to benefit or not benefit the Overlord in having a Loyal Wall or not.

I'll give more details when the next cycle comes closer, but it would be a test for a cycle or two before making any permanent changes. Also I would want them to be free of any tests or intercessions to basically make the challenges as simple as possible and keep it between the two Barons only.

Why? The core of DoS rules involves politics and alliances. Why shouldn't Baron vs. Baron be allowed their Squire, a chosen Warlord, Renegade Baron, or Overlord advocate depending on the circumstances?

Related to the ART, the plan is also to change the Talon of Redwin from being an automatic prize and instead one that must be chosen. The Barony Challenge Grant will still accompany it, and it might be changed to test-free if picked by a Warlord since they won't gain the benefit of the extra fancy the Talon gives.

I vehemently disagree with the Talon going to anyone that's not GM or under. The history of the Talon shows that it was originally brought into use for a new tournament which came to be known colloquially as the Talon Tournament. Warlord Tournaments had existed long before that. It is sad that inactivity has already forced the Talon and Warlord Tournaments to be melded together. Please don't remove the only exclusive incentive with in-game perks for lower ranks to take part. It defeats the purpose of the artifact and might further reduce participation of lower ranking characters and new players in the ART.

Just because the last two ART winners were also Talon winners doesn't mean that trend will continue. Those two winners are what I call legacy duelists that have many family members involved with the duels. They are, in the long run, the exception not the rule.

I also think this is a slap in the face to people whose characters entered an ART, were not yet Warlords that entered in hopes of getting the Talon for whatever reason that gained enough WoL via the tournament to not get it and it was awarded to someone else. Maybe that's bitterness on my end, but I stand by it.

3. The Talon of Redwin will be changed to a chosen prize for all ARTs going forward. The Grant may be changed should Warlords choose it as a reward.

This tells me this is a done deal and not open for discussion. How could the grant be possibly changed other than the time allowed for its use since it's a baronial challenge grant?

[Jake]

Here is another option. Many years ago, there was talk of a title tier between Baron and Overlord called Duke.
That could be used this way: Instead of permanently taking away a baronial title, have the winner of a Baron on Baron contest take over both baronies and have the right to call themselves Duke/Duchess as holder of two or more baronies. Should the Duke lose a challenge, the winner could then choose which barony to keep leaving the 'Duke' with the remaining one and returning to being a Baron. This way, the districts and the baronial manors remain intact without causing the desire to redraw the map. It leaves the current titles available for future use when activity increases.

As for Loyal and Renegade status, that opens the possibility of a 'Duke' declaring one alignment for one barony and another for a different one to balance things OR increasing the amount either way to benefit or not benefit the Overlord in having a Loyal Wall or not.

I remember the Duke discussions from way back on AOL forums.

I would oppose this particular suggestion, primarily because it would muck up the standings tools.

I'd prefer any solutions we come up with not require we (meaning Kal) have to recode a bunch of stuff. At least not without a whole lot of time to consider/work on a change proposal.

Let's look at less invasive solutions first.

-Jake

[PrlUnicorn]

Here is another option. Many years ago, there was talk of a title tier between Baron and Overlord called Duke.
That could be used this way: Instead of permanently taking away a baronial title, have the winner of a Baron on Baron contest take over both baronies and have the right to call themselves Duke/Duchess as holder of two or more baronies. Should the Duke lose a challenge, the winner could then choose which barony to keep leaving the 'Duke' with the remaining one and returning to being a Baron. This way, the districts and the baronial manors remain intact without causing the desire to redraw the map. It leaves the current titles available for future use when activity increases.

As for Loyal and Renegade status, that opens the possibility of a 'Duke' declaring one alignment for one barony and another for a different one to balance things OR increasing the amount either way to benefit or not benefit the Overlord in having a Loyal Wall or not.

I remember the Duke discussions from way back on AOL forums.

I would oppose this particular suggestion, primarily because it would muck up the standings tools.

I'd prefer any solutions we come up with not require we (meaning Kal) have to recode a bunch of stuff. At least not without a whole lot of time to consider/work on a change proposal.

Let's look at less invasive solutions first.

-Jake

They could be listed as Baron XYZ and Baron ABC as opposed to Duke 123. Is there a restriction in current process of a name being listed on the DoS more than once? We do have people listed as Squire of XYZ or Talon of Redwin; a secondary barony could, possibly, be listed there. Duke 123 could be an honorific as opposed to an official title.

DoM standings have an example of how names could be shown more than once since characters are listed both Keepers and their current ranks. I realize it's mixing how each sport's standing list operates, but based on that existing coding it's possible. I don't know how much work would be involved in making that change.

The names reflected are the same for the Keepers as well as their names in the standings. For instance:
Keepers of the Isle
Celestial Keeper / Archmage Eregor Gained: 2023-10-15 Defended: 2023-12-18 # Defenses: 1
Keeper of Air Xanth Van Bokkelen Gained: 2022-10-30 Defended: 2023-07-13 # Defenses: 1
Keeper of Earth Rachael Blackthorne Gained: 2023-10-12
Keeper of Fire Mew Gained: 2022-12-28 Defended: 2023-02-11 # Defenses: 1
Keeper of Water Droet Gained: 2022-07-31 Defended: 2023-07-12 # Defenses: 3

All match
*~*Archmage*~* [ 3 Foci ]
Eregor 73 0 0 NR, IM, EF 2023-11-14

~=Mage Emeritus=~ [ 3 Foci ]
Rachael Blackthorne [ RoK ] 210 0 0 NR or IM, EF 2024-01-04
Xanth Van Bokkelen XanthVanBokkelen 122 0 0 NR or IM, EF 2023-12-30

~Mage~ [ 3 Foci ]
Droet Droet the Bold 47 0 0 IM, EF 2023-12-22
Mew 16 0 0 NR, EF 2024-01-01

[Delahada]

I really like the Duke/Duchess idea of allowing barons to hold more than one title. If there's a way to implement it that does not result in excess reprogramming or whatever, that would be cool. Might even encourage more challenges to prevent any single person from conquering too many lands, as it were. Sounds fun!

[Rachael Blackthorne]

From the Reduction of Baronies - Discussion thread just a little over two years ago (January 4th, 2022 to be precise):

Keeping in line with my opinion that the real issue here isn’t the number of baronies so much as the frequency in which they are retired, and then left to hang in limbo until the DoS staff figures out what to do with them, and related to Karma's earlier question about how to get Warlords to use their challenge rights, I had an idea this morning.

What if we allowed Warlords to challenge for vacant baronies, as soon as they are retired and for as long as they remain vacant? We could treat them as both Renegade and Forfeit, ensuring there is no grace period between challenges and engaging the Baron’s Council to elect a champion(s) to defend the title. This would effectively keep them in circulation and should allow for a quicker turnaround, as opposed to waiting for the baronies to be offered in special tournaments or ARTs.

This idea still has merit.

[Partly Cloudy]

Hi!

I’d like to echo Sal’s player and say thank you, Alasdair and Team DoS, for opening your thoughts and plans up to us as a community and allowing us to give feedback. That’s greatly appreciated.

Like others have said, I am not a fan of the Talon of Redwin becoming a prize that is open to characters ranked WL or higher. The history of that item is important, and as is the case with many others, this item is part of what motivated me to partake in the ARTs when my characters hadn’t reached WL yet.

Personally, I would prefer to see a new item be implemented that would function in the way you described. Furthermore, I would like to see that new item offer an extra fancy even to WLs, putting them on even footing with Barons, but without the other benefits of holding the title. It could function the way the Talon works now, where it goes back to DoS and is awarded to someone new with each ART, or it could function the way DoM’s EF prizes work, where the power in the item goes inert, but the character gets to keep the item and continue to implement it for the sake of story or keep it as a keepsake.

That said, if you are set on changing the Talon, this would be my first suggestion for it. Make that fancy apply even for the WLs. I would also strongly suggest that the Challenge Grant be divorced from it (whether it’s the Talon or a new prize). As others have said, the Grant really isn’t the draw; the item is, the achievement is.

And that leads me to another point I agree with others on: there are too many grants in play at this time. Like you said, our community has grown smaller and activity is down. Most characters are ranked WL or above, so there isn’t a whole lot of incentive to take and utilize grants at this time. Maybe there is for lower-ranked characters who can’t challenge yet, but we only have a handful of those. If you want to keep the ART grants, having them be a chosen prize for lower-ranked characters might be a good idea, whether or not they hold the Talon.

Everyone duels for different reasons, and often, those reasons have nothing to do with gearing up to challenge. I would suggest that DoS embrace that and focus a bit more on how to make things a bit more fun and how to provide more story hooks first, and then focus on how to promote challenges second. It may be that the latter naturally increases with the former.

One of the ways I would try to increase the fun is with the prizes that are offered at the ARTs. The RP prizes that provide story hooks, neat effects, etc., are a lot of fun to collect. Things like the living suit of armor that DoS offered before, or the mechanical reindeer, or even some of the weapons you guys have offered, have been great draws. I’ve often entered ARTs specifically for those prizes, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that. And they don’t all have to be super cool; quirky works sometimes, too. I remember there was once a Flamingo Floaty Cruise with Conner, or something like that, and that was fun, too.

Another way would be with encouraging DoS staff to be more present and active themselves. Since the “Crush Conner” achievement has been retired, is in the works for Alasdair? That might help in conjunction with staff visibility/activity. Because if there are achievements, someone’s going to try for them. Also, sometimes, all it takes is one or two people in a dueling room to get others to throw in, too.

A third way I would try to increase fun and activity would be with non-tournament events. I realize that’s asking to put more work on DoS staff, but I think it could help increase activity. And these events don’t have to be single-night events that require someone to watch over them the entire time. It could be something that runs for a couple of weeks and allows characters to gain an item, an experience, or even something like tokens that they can collect to pay toward something.

This method would also work for the current issue of the vacant baronies. You could run it so that players have to log a minimum of 8 duels and have above a certain win percentage to be eligible to take one of the baronies, with the player with the highest win percentage taking first pick. We’ve seen this method work successfully with both DoM (Air Tower event in 2022, Earth Tower event in 2023) and DoF (Slugfest event in 2020).

You can probably gather that I’d prefer not to allow the two vacant baronies to sit empty for the entire cycle. To be frank, that feels a bit like the community is being penalized because a couple of people made a mistake. I know people who would like to challenge for those baronies and would probably similarly like to compete in another event to win them, and at present, they’re going to have to wait months to have the opportunity.

Now, let me move on to something I do like, and that’s the Baron-on-Baron challenges. I think that could be greatly helpful for some people who are trying to gain the achievement for having held all the baronies, and also for those who would simply like to mix things up. In addition to the idea of the winning Baron choosing which to keep and which to send to a tournament (or similar event), and that of the winning Baron holding both, what if there was also the option of the Barons swapping places the way it happens with a Baron challenging the Overlord? And it would be up to the winning Baron to choose which outcome happens. That could help play into the politics and alliances aspect of Swords.

I similarly like the idea of there being a Duke/Duchess title or honorific. As others before me have said, I don’t know how much work would go into implementing this or how it would best work as far as notation on the standings, but I think it’s definitely an interesting mechanic that honors the history and political nature of DoS. Maybe it could also be that if a Baron is on a hot streak and manages to gain a certain number of Baronies, it triggers an automatic Overlord challenge? Or the Overlord could challenge them to return those Baronies to the people, so to speak, and rebuild their “Loyal wall”? I haven’t spent a lot of time mulling that idea over just yet, so forgive me if it’s clumsy or simply unfeasible.

But returning to the idea of Baron-on-Baron challenges, like Nayun said, I think the testing period could make for a fun mini-event.

And I think that’s all I have for now.


(Edited to reflect the fact that the “Crush Conner” achievement was retired.)

[Delahada]

It just occurred to me that according to the updated Duel of Swords Event Calendar for 2024, the next All Ranks Tournament isn't scheduled until March. Basically, it looks like history is repeating itself. We're having pretty much the exact same discussion we had two years ago. The exact same situation. Two baronies are vacant for practically the same reasons, and once again the answer is to just let those baronies sit vacant for several months and suggesting to reduce the number of baronies.

I'm still against that. In fact, I know for a fact that there are people who wanted to challenge for those baronies before they were stripped or voluntarily given up. Now that option is gone and they are left twiddling their thumbs, forced to pick baronies they weren't originally interested in or just not challenge, as is their right to do.

Two years ago I suggested an option, which I see Rachael also quoted above, that many members of the community liked. I would like to revisit that suggestion by reposting it here.

What if we allowed Warlords to challenge for vacant baronies, as soon as they are retired and for as long as they remain vacant? We could treat them as both Renegade and Forfeit, ensuring there is no grace period between challenges and engaging the Baron’s Council to elect a champion(s) to defend the title. This would effectively keep them in circulation and should allow for a quicker turnaround, as opposed to waiting for the baronies to be offered in special tournaments or ARTs.

This time I would also like to add on the suggestion that those with challenge grants, such as the Talon of Redwin, be allowed to use those grants for the same purpose. Why not give that a chance?

[Nayun]

Though I already replied I wanted to add that simplicity, at least during the testing periods and in my opinion, is best. I have thoughts for possible additions to include other aspects of the sport with the idea of a pseudo title reduction throughout a cycle, but I think that's best to hold onto until we see through the testing process.

I do have one suggestion. The ability for Barons to challenge for other Baronies having a special name. Maybe something like "Right of Conquest"?

I've been out of the title game for a bit but this possible game change has me interested and I'll try to come out and participate during the testing period.

[Delahada]

I do have one suggestion. The ability for Barons to challenge for other Baronies having a special name. Maybe something like "Right of Conquest"?

RIGHT OF CONQUEST

I like it.

[Alasdair Galloway]

Just to come back to this, the upcoming changes are temporary but will be implemented starting with the next ART and next cycle. I can touch on some of these things, but nothing here is permanent. If it doesn't work out, things can be reverted back to what they are. But I personally think change is exciting and mixing things up every now and then is a good thing.

1. Baron vs. Baron challenges. I'll get more out on this the closer the next cycle comes, but like Nayun said, simplicity is best for testing periods. To help facilitate that, we're not going to want tests or intercessions. I personally think that a Baron putting their own title on the line to challenge another works best if there are no other parties involved, and that having a part of the game where there are no tests makes it stand out as special. I've also thought about instead of the title going vacant, the winner gets both but for now we're going to stay with one Barony gets vacated. Speaking of...

2. The titles are staying vacant until the ART. This is actually the first thing that I'd like to test because it ties into the Baron vs. Baron challenges. Because Baron vs. Baron challenges will involve having titles vacated, keeping them like that right now helps staff see if it's viable for future cycles. The reasoning is that keeping the titles vacant does two things: 1, it reduces the number of titles in play, so it's helping keep the number of titles at a more reasonable level considering how small the community is and 2, titles draw people to the ART.

So at the start of the next cycle, we'll have all 8 baronies filled. If we get any Baron vs. Baron challenges, the Barony will be vacant until the next ART. Fast forward a few months, the next ART takes place, all titles are filled at the start of the cycle, and it all starts over again. So maybe at one point we'll only have 5 open Baronies, maybe all 8, or maybe 4. I think that adds a fun nature to the game while at the same time being a Baron and holding on to the title will be more challenging and more important.

I might be wrong about it! But that's why the plan is to test this for a few cycles and see what works and what doesn't. There may be drawbacks and consequences that we haven't thought about or accounted for, or maybe people will like that they feel more special being a Baron because there are fewer now.

3. The Talon. This is changing for a few reasons. In the past people who have not been eligible for it have asked for it as a prize; people have told me they felt it was unfair that the Talon winner also got another prize; I don't want it to be a participation trophy given to the single lone non-WL to enter an ART and it would be unfair to state that there has to be a number of non-WLs who enter to have it be an eligible prize. We tied the Baron grant to it to give newer folks a taste of the endgame for DoS, or for new characters to go for it because ranking up can still take time even with the lossless system. Sometimes it's worked that way, sometimes it hasn't. It's also gone vacant. So I think something that's fair is to offer it as its own prize. This way if you have a character who wants it but never got a chance because they're a Warlord, well now's your chance! There is an achievement tied to it, so now achievement hunters have a reason to join ARTs. Again, I think there are fun opportunities in opening it up for everyone. And as a sidenote, this would likely replace the Intercession Grant.

Now, with all that out of the way, I want to stress that all of these changes right now are only planned as temporary as we let the community test them. If it works, great! If it doesn't, well hey let's see if everything needs scrapped or if things just need some tweaks. And maybe some of the suggestions already brought up would be the way to go!

All the feedback and suggestions are appreciated and taken under consideration, so I do appreciate it! Just because we don't implement any suggested changes before or during the testing portion doesn't mean that it isn't a good or valid idea, but simply that we want to try out what we've already planned first before making any changes.

[PrlUnicorn]

Personally, I would prefer to see a new item be implemented that would function in the way you described. Furthermore, I would like to see that new item offer an extra fancy even to WLs, putting them on even footing with Barons, but without the other benefits of holding the title. It could function the way the Talon works now, where it goes back to DoS and is awarded to someone new with each ART, or it could function the way DoM’s EF prizes work, where the power in the item goes inert, but the character gets to keep the item and continue to implement it for the sake of story or keep it as a keepsake.

That said, if you are set on changing the Talon, this would be my first suggestion for it. Make that fancy apply even for the WLs. I would also strongly suggest that the Challenge Grant be divorced from it (whether it’s the Talon or a new prize). As others have said, the Grant really isn’t the draw; the item is, the achievement is.

This. I would rather see the Talon retired and a new artifact created, much as Panther's Claw was replaced by Fistmelda's Tusk, if it's going to be open to all ranks. To have it be open to all ranks is ignoring the history attached to it. One of my chief complaints, over time, has been the lack of honoring ( and, sometimes, outright ignoring) the rich and deep history of this community while moving forward to get with the times.

The matter of too many grants keeps coming up. With the exception of those given as prizes for Madness and the semi-annual one to allow a Test free shot at the Overlord, I'm rather neutral. Some of the other grants end up wasted because there are no challenges. No challenge, no need to intercede. Like others have said, I like RP prizes and story hooks/writing prompts that inspire me to add to my stories.

I'm not sure how the Talon got a baronial grant attached to it the first place. Sure, it's nice, but is it necessary? Maybe the baronial grant should be offered as an option only if the Talon winner is also the ART winner since only Warlord winners can choose the one to challenge the Overlord. Give them that choice rather than saying... Take this, whether or not you want to challenge for a title. Not everyone wants it.

Another way would be with encouraging DoS staff to be more present and active themselves. Since the “Crush Conner” achievement has been retired, is in the works for Alasdair? That might help in conjunction with staff visibility/activity. Because if there are achievements, someone’s going to try for them. Also, sometimes, all it takes is one or two people in a dueling room to get others to throw in, too.

As the person with the character that was second and last to earn that achievement, I was honestly surprised to find out it was not retired months after Conner stepped down from staff duties. I was, at some point, informed that adding, retiring, and updating sports achievements was the responsibility of the individual sports teams. My inquiry at that time, I believe, was regarding the Panther's Claw. Has no one thought of an achievement, other than as part of Coven Killer, for defeating Alasdair in a duel? It's been two years since he took over. Just for note, the only current head coordinator that has an achievement with her name on it is Max.

It just occurred to me that according to the updated Duel of Swords Event Calendar for 2024, the next All Ranks Tournament isn't scheduled until March. Basically, it looks like history is repeating itself. We're having pretty much the exact same discussion we had two years ago. The exact same situation. Two baronies are vacant for practically the same reasons, and once again the answer is to just let those baronies sit vacant for several months and suggesting to reduce the number of baronies.

I'm still against that. In fact, I know for a fact that there are people who wanted to challenge for those baronies before they were stripped or voluntarily given up. Now that option is gone and they are left twiddling their thumbs, forced to pick baronies they weren't originally interested in or just not challenge, as is their right to do.

Two years ago I suggested an option, which I see Rachael also quoted above, that many members of the community liked. I would like to revisit that suggestion by reposting it here.

What if we allowed Warlords to challenge for vacant baronies, as soon as they are retired and for as long as they remain vacant? We could treat them as both Renegade and Forfeit, ensuring there is no grace period between challenges and engaging the Baron’s Council to elect a champion(s) to defend the title. This would effectively keep them in circulation and should allow for a quicker turnaround, as opposed to waiting for the baronies to be offered in special tournaments or ARTs.

This time I would also like to add on the suggestion that those with challenge grants, such as the Talon of Redwin, be allowed to use those grants for the same purpose. Why not give that a chance?

Repeating this because it's a valid option and as Rachael said,

From the Reduction of Baronies - Discussion thread just a little over two years ago (January 4th, 2022 to be precise):

This idea still has merit.

Adding my own thoughts from that thread as well:

I remember when, for various reasons, baronies were reduced from 13 to 7. While adding the extra barony of Cadentia was nice and opened up possibilities, it really didn't fit the established pattern of districts attached to the city of Rhydin.

Cadentia has never been a part of the city. And while it's a nice addition to play, the old last in, first out could be noted here. However, nuking any baronies right now diminishes the long time effort of the one person that worked his ass of to get all eight titles. Frankly, it bothered me to see G'nort's name removed as an all title holder on the histories when seven was all that was available to him at the time.

Though I already replied I wanted to add that simplicity, at least during the testing periods and in my opinion, is best. I have thoughts for possible additions to include other aspects of the sport with the idea of a pseudo title reduction throughout a cycle, but I think that's best to hold onto until we see through the testing process.

I do have one suggestion. The ability for Barons to challenge for other Baronies having a special name. Maybe something like "Right of Conquest"?

I've been out of the title game for a bit but this possible game change has me interested and I'll try to come out and participate during the testing period.

I really like this idea! It seems to fit with an already used term "Right of Challenge."

3. The Talon. This is changing for a few reasons. In the past people who have not been eligible for it have asked for it as a prize; people have told me they felt it was unfair that the Talon winner also got another prize; I don't want it to be a participation trophy given to the single lone non-WL to enter an ART and it would be unfair to state that there has to be a number of non-WLs who enter to have it be an eligible prize. We tied the Baron grant to it to give newer folks a taste of the endgame for DoS, or for new characters to go for it because ranking up can still take time even with the lossless system. Sometimes it's worked that way, sometimes it hasn't. It's also gone vacant. So I think something that's fair is to offer it as its own prize. This way if you have a character who wants it but never got a chance because they're a Warlord, well now's your chance! There is an achievement tied to it, so now achievement hunters have a reason to join ARTs. Again, I think there are fun opportunities in opening it up for everyone. And as a side note, this would likely replace the Intercession Grant.

There's a way around this that's already built into the rules for those wanting it as a prize. Become eligible by opting out of the no loss system. Most people wouldn't risk the rank they have built up if offered that choice even for that achievement.
The Talon should be enough given the +1 bonus.
If no lower ranks show up then I would have no issue with a Warlord being allowed to chose it. Considering the last couple of Talon holders won the ART outright ( Several became Barons in recent memory) it's disingenuous to refer to it as a participation trophy and insulting to GM and under that put effort into winning it.

It's telling to me that, at present, only 6 people have offered thoughts and opinions on this subject. I think what keeps being missed in many of these posts is that DoS at some point stopped being fun for some of us or something else started being more fun. Maybe the Baron vs. Baron plan will reignite interest.

[Max Lager]

Partly Cloudy:
Another way would be with encouraging DoS staff to be more present and active themselves. Since the “Crush Conner” achievement has been retired, is in the works for Alasdair? That might help in conjunction with staff visibility/activity. Because if there are achievements, someone’s going to try for them. Also, sometimes, all it takes is one or two people in a dueling room to get others to throw in, too.

I don't think this suggestion was intended to be negative, "encouraging DoS staff to be more present and active themselves", but I do want to give a gentle reminder that people are very busy and may not be able to come around as often as they wish to. Or their allotted free time is spent working on background things or maybe even IFL (team dueling activities). Or like in the case of Ebon, they're heading up another team and present for weekly hosting and such. It is a very valid suggestion, but I think time constraints is playing a large factor here.

PrlUnicorn:
As the person with the character that was second and last to earn that achievement, I was honestly surprised to find out it was not retired months after Conner stepped down from staff duties. I was, at some point, informed that adding, retiring, and updating sports achievements was the responsibility of the individual sports teams. My inquiry at that time, I believe, was regarding the Panther's Claw. Has no one thought of an achievement, other than as part of Coven Killer, for defeating Alasdair in a duel? It's been two years since he took over. Just for note, the only current head coordinator that has an achievement with her name on it is Max.

Regarding Head Coordinator achievements, not every head coordinator has felt comfortable with one and doesn't wish for the spotlight to be on them so to speak. The Coven Killer allows for coordinators to share that spotlight if it otherwise makes one feel uneasy. In addition, achievement creation also requires the assistance of our Black Wizard with being uploaded to the website, approval from the Head Coordinators, etc. IE, there's a little more to it than simply "Why hasn't this been done for two years?" If someone doesn't want an achievement created, we aren't looking to force it upon them.

Mind you, I wasn't saying anyone was implying these things had been forgotten, but simply explaining a bit of background that not everyone may instantly see or be readily aware of.