I'm spinning off from the discussion here about challenges, in particular:
PC wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:46 pm
The fact of the matter is that challenges just aren't happening...
The community is simply not interested in challenging. Be it due to real life, lack of interest, or simply being fine with the current title holders. The majority of challenge as of now come from grant recipients...
PC wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:27 pm...Lack of challenges isn't really a DoS only issue; as I believe we've seen more challenges compared to DoF and DoM (Even if it is through prize grants, etc, over challenge rights.)
I thought about laying out my personal reasons for not challenging right now, but I think it might be more useful to ask the community at large: Why don't you challenge for titles, if you have a character or characters who could do so? Why do you think other players aren't challenging for titles? Is this a problem for the sports moving forward? Do we want to motivate/incentivize challenges, and how might we do that? Or is it not really a problem?
Feel free to add in anything you think I've missed in framing this conversation; I think an open, frank dialogue will be the best way to look at this.
To start. This is me speaking as a duelist/player, not as a Coordinator.
On the current DoS Standings I am 3 of the current active Warlords. (Hana Takamine, Spell, and Nayun), while I have inactive Warlords: Apple, Layla Paine, and King. That's 6 Warlords that are currently not in the challenge game due to my own personal reasons. I've always been a heavy player in challenges, I've held 52 titles during my collective time in this community, and at one point I even held 7 titles at one time ( Old Market / Seaside / Dragon's Gate Baronies, Diamond, ShadoWeaver, Tower of Fire / Air ).
At the current I hold two titles in Duel of Fists: ShadoWeaver and FireStar, and I also held Battlefield Park until a month or so ago -- when my character decided to step down and allow it to go to the Warlord Tournament since, ICly, her wife is pregnant and she wants to focus purely on her, while OOCly I thought it'd be more interesting to see who could possibly win it. Mallory won the title and has begun doing things with it, which I am both happy and excited to see; so I see my retirement of the title as a success.
As to why I'm not challenging as much as I have done in the past.. I've pretty much done it all. I've held all the titles, Overlord multiple times, Diamond multiple times, and Archmage multiple times, Talon/Claw/Klytus. If it's official and not part of the missing barony rings, I've held it. I'd rather other players who haven't had the opportunity to gain titles or those who are still interested in the aspect of the challenge game to have fun with it. As a Coordinator, it'd feel awkward for me to try and run my multiple Warlords through the challenge gauntlet and collect Baronies simply because I want to participate in challenges; I'd rather wait for something I know I can commit to and go for it on maybe one character instead.
I've also found more fun in simply roleplaying. With the change over to Discord I've found myself given more opportunities to simply roleplay, as there has been a sort of merging between the DM and RoH crowd that was hard to achieve back during the Flashchat days of Rings of Honor. Both sides were kept to their respectful corners, but now there is far more opportunities for me to do other things: be it chat in the lobby or roleplay in Winter Wonderland instead of dueling.. and with the introduction of Dueling Houses (coughshamelessplugcough) my competitive spirit seems to have been focused on there. Instead of collecting titles for myself, I can come out and get a few duels so I can provide points to the House of the Wylds, then go on my way to do something else.
For the nitty gritty though. With the change to no losses we are in a waiting period as of now, to see who will rank up, become Warlord, and see where that will go. There are first time Warlords ( Mallory ) who have been seen interested in the challenge game, be it DoM or DoS. These are the players we need to foster, the first-time high ranks who are interested in dipping their toes into the challenge process. There was a time when I was the Mallory for this community. I hopped after titles, I'd challenge whenever I could, I'd write, hold tournament, etc. But now I'm no longer the new blood, yet I'm not Old Guard either. New, old, whoever you are - if you have fun with challenges, feel free to challenge, but if you aren't really interested in it and just want to play the game off and on without the responsibilities of up-keeping and defending a title, then feel free too. It's about players choice in the end, or at least that's how I feel.
Maybe when I'm up to it I'll challenge Matt for Overlord. Hana wants to watch the snow from the Overlord Isle anyway. But, for now, I'm fine with standing back and watching.
Honestly, I think this is a very personal topic (both OOC as well as IC) and is likely to bring a dozen different answers. Even the answers to "Or is it not really a problem." are going to differ.
My personal stance is that it isn't necessarily a problem. I mean, it kinda is, but I don't think I see it as a problem in the same sense that others may, but more of a symptom of something else entirely.
I see the titles as story devices. My challenges were always based in some motivation Kal had; usually the loss of a bet! But also sometimes it was answering the call of a particular opal he associates to or some political manipulations around the rings that set him in opposition to someone else. I think that last is probably one of the more popular and important challenge motivators: conflict. There are tons of challenges through the sport histories that were largely based on 2 people (IC) not liking each other.
Is dearth of challenges a problem in itself? Kal has only issued challenge 6 times since gaining warlord in DoS back in '94 (7 if you count a WLT prize he used), so I'd have to say no. If we don't have enough people or enough interaction or enough conflict to keep things interesting and spur others into challenging though.. then maybe that aspect is.
Kalamere wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:34 pm If we don't have enough people or enough interaction or enough conflict to keep things interesting and spur others into challenging though.. then maybe that is.
I think it's something along these lines. Challenges were pretty dead at points and then players like Rakeesh would come around, snag a title, and start something that could give players the kick they needed to challenge and interact.
It comes down to choice. For me, at least. I don't think lack of challenges is truly a big problem, since I believe when players feel they are ready or want to have a title -- they'll go for it. It only becomes a big problem if we want it to become one. This reminds me of Duel of Magic. I ignored it until Neo grabbed me to test DoM4 when no one else in the busy chat would. I liked the new system and I got interested in playing it, yet there weren't many challenges -- even WITH the challenge requirement at the time being 2 WoL's and being active on the standings. With such a small leap needed to get into the challenge pool, I always found it odd that others weren't using this to their advantage; so I did. But looking back on it now? It was about choice. Either DoM wasn't a preferred sport, the players liked who were in the Towers then and didn't want to challenge, or just didn't feel like challenging in the first place.
I think providing more events, more opportunities even if they are challenge grants, and storylines can help. As long as no one feels like they have to challenge when they become the eligible rank. Challenging is like joining that Mythic Raid in World of Warcraft. You can choose to play the base game, have fun, maybe grind achievements, or you can step into harder content. It's always a choice.
Kalamere wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:34 pmIf we don't have enough people or enough interaction or enough conflict to keep things interesting and spur others into challenging though.. then maybe that aspect is.
This is what concerns me and usually keeps me from challenging.
I like conflict to spur on challenges or some kind of story line. For Jewell, I usually need some kind of motivation. Yes, sometimes it can just be "I want that" with her, but conflict based challenges or story-line based challenges are a lot more compelling and fun.
To some degree, with a smaller population, it's been more difficult to create conflict, so a decline in challenges is somewhat natural in my mind.
Here's my take on why I haven't done much with challenges since I've been back (approximately 5 months now?). There's a mix of OOC and IC reasons for it, sometimes at the same time.
My bench of eligible challengers is small. A lot of that is on me, having taken several breaks (two of which spanned a year+) from active dueling, and having not been someone who grinded out duel after duel in the days where the population base could support that. I only have three characters eligible for challenging for the titles, one in each sport. One of those, Locke D'Vestavio (who holds rank in DoF), has essentially retired IC from dueling, and another, Jay Capistrano, is still working his way back to being active in DoS. So right now, I really only have one active character, Bailey, who can challenge in one sport, DoM.
I'm not very good at putting in the time, or the work, or whatever you want to call it, to get characters up to rank. Again, that's on me. My limited time to duel, my limited talent, my limited interest, whatever you want to call it.
This echoes what a lot of folks have been saying, but for me, there needs to be an interesting reason IC for one of my characters to challenge. I haven't found one yet -- but that's not to say it might not come up some day!
I generally haven't found challenges to be fun. For me, the time and effort it takes to schedule them ends up feeling a lot like work, which is the last thing I want dueling to feel like. I'm also not very good at putting in the time and effort to promote a challenge to make it a fun event in the room. I generally take more enjoyment out of tournaments, as probably evidenced by the number of them I've taken part in since I've come back
I don't know if this is another conversation or thread, but at the risk of opening up another can of worms, I think it's also worth asking people who haven't reached the highest ranks yet, or have only ranked up a handful of characters in one or two sports -- what motivates you to duel? Are you looking forward to hitting Mage/Warlord/Emerald so that you can challenge for titles, or does something else drive you to duel?
Bailey Raptis wrote:I don't know if this is another conversation or thread, but at the risk of opening up another can of worms, I think it's also worth asking people who haven't reached the highest ranks yet, or have only ranked up a handful of characters in one or two sports -- what motivates you to duel? Are you looking forward to hitting Mage/Warlord/Emerald so that you can challenge for titles, or does something else drive you to duel?
Should be fine to stick with here since it's under the umbrella of challenging. Ranking up to challenge is just as important as already being ranked up. Though I will say my reason for ranking up was just that -- to challenge. The reason I even wanted to duel was to beat one person in a challenge and take their title. Harris would come to the RDI, I had zero interest in dueling even though my friend tried to drag me over at times, but it was Harris who got me into the mindset of wanting to actually try it out.. and for the sole reason of challenging him and taking his title. It was character motivation that had me OOC motivated to try and see it through. I don't believe it was my first title, seeing as I had been ranking alts while also doing my main name, but it was the most important.
I have three Warlord characters, one of them is currently active and on the standings. There are plenty of IC reasons for the two inactive ones to sit back and wait for now like raising families, being active in community projects, and being part of some thriving businesses. Maggie, the third and active one, has been busy with school and taking part at the Shanachie Theater.
From the OOC standpoint, I have one remaining parent. Dad lives in a place with very limited internet access and I'm not very comfortable punching buttons on my phone to RP. I've been planning to go and visit with him for some time. I'd rather not be holding a title and so instead let someone else have a chance to make use of it to write a story or create something fun while I'm taking care of family things.
Kalamere wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:34 pmIf we don't have enough people or enough interaction or enough conflict to keep things interesting and spur others into challenging though.. then maybe that aspect is.
This. People forget that the driving force behind most great storytelling is an antagonist and conflict. This community has been sorely lacking players willing to create or engage in conflict with their characters, which is the centerpiece for a lot of the titles and arguably the entire reason the DoS political system exists in the first place. Stagnation is bound to occur without a concentrated effort by one or more parties to get people engaged through conflict, which is what a fight is at its most basic level. I would go so far as to say in my observation people seem more intent to actively avoid conflict than utilize it as a catalyst for something interesting.
For me, I've got lots of chars that *could* challenge. But I also currently hold 5 titles in 2 sports across a handful of chars. And at that point, it just doesn't feel right to keep gunning for other titles. Add in a dose of burn out from having done the challenge thing a metric f-ton of times in the past 6 years, and well... perfect storm for not challenging here.
