WoL vs. Math

[G]

Why not have challenges between squires?

Kimone actually challenged for a squire title and won. I think it was Nayun's squire at the time, though at the moment, I don't recall who the squire was offhand. It was a fun little thing to do.

[Spell]

Why not have challenges between squires?

Kimone actually challenged for a squire title and won. I think it was Nayun's squire at the time, though at the moment, I don't recall who the squire was offhand. It was a fun little thing to do.

Charles Blackstone. This was during the Rakeesh factions stuff and Nayun was Team Candy, while Charles was Team Rakeesh. So Nayun allowed the option of Kimone to challenge Charles for his squireship. It is within the rules that a Baron can change their squire once per cycle, so this idea can still be done.

[Charlie Nine]

Way to use his real name, Brett. GG.

[Spell]

Way to use his real name, Brett. GG.

now the friggen normies will link me to this place.

[Anubis Karos]

Fixed as per request.

[Spell]

Fixed as per request.

Thx m8.

[Random McChanse]

To answer Jake, with the exception of the rare shutout it's always possible to get back into the positive in one duel using the Math system, whereas you must win two duels in a row to get into the positive using WoL. It's a low chance a player can pull off a 5-0 after a 1-5, but the hope is there. It comes down to whether a new player thinks that's possible. Two losses in a row with either system likely results in a wait. Most people only have time for 1-3 hour long duels a week anyways.

I think the Math system really comes into its own once a player gets past the first skill hurdle and begins seriously ranking up through the third and fourth ranks. I think we lose many good players at this point who can't string together enough consecutive wins to hit the fourth rank before being overcome by the grind. The Math system better recognizes a player's ability to score versus their streak power, which I think is a better indicator of skill. I know I loved IFL because I felt that it rewarded me for playing well in a way that my WoL in the league didn't reflect.

A quick perusal of the archives showed me that 5-1s are more common than I expected, though I don't know the ranks involved. 5-4s and 5-3s are the most common by quite a bit. The most common result seems to be 5-4s, so maybe a better multiplier would be 1.5 instead of 2. It needs a more in-depth analysis. I like Kal's use of .5 per rank bonuses for losing against higher rank players. Encouraging higher and lower ranks to fight is good for the community, and the best strategy to gain WoL is to avoid higher ranks like the plague.

I think Aric's got a point that it would be useful to give select lower ranked players with proven potential the ability to participate in the endgame. Stuff like the OL grant, Rakeesh's squire tournament idea, allowing the Talon into the WLT, and allowing the PC into the Diamond tournament. A large part of the WoL system seems designed to weed out less active players to prevent a glut of endgame players that overloads the challenge and tournament system. That's less a concern now due to lower population, and I think it's wise to give some one-shot opportunities to engage a few lower rank players with the endgame systems.

[Anubis Karos]

I've wanted to allow the Talon into the WLT for some time now.

[G]

I've wanted to allow the Talon into the WLT for some time now.

It's been done three times in a row in the past on a trial basis.

[Sabine]

I think Aric's got a point that it would be useful to give select lower ranked players with proven potential the ability to participate in the endgame. Stuff like the OL grant, Rakeesh's squire tournament idea, allowing the Talon into the WLT, and allowing the PC into the Diamond tournament. A large part of the WoL system seems designed to weed out less active players to prevent a glut of endgame players that overloads the challenge and tournament system. That's less a concern now due to lower population, and I think it's wise to give some one-shot opportunities to engage a few lower rank players with the endgame systems.

I liked that point of his a lot. We have a lot of people who come in and duel once and never come back or who duel five times a year. Then we have newer or lower ranks who really do work their butts off. Some incentives would be cool for those that are here and contributing.

[Kalamere]

I've wanted to allow the Talon into the WLT for some time now.

It was a thing. Then it wasn't. I think it was a trial, though I was never clear on why it wasn't formally adopted.

think it's wise to give some one-shot opportunities to engage a few lower rank players with the endgame systems.

This is the point of the quarterly Overlord Grant. It's only once every few months, but it has regularly been given out and put to use. I think it fills that need, though naturally requires you to have an in with the current Overlord.

[Spell]

I think Aric's got a point that it would be useful to give select lower ranked players with proven potential the ability to participate in the endgame. Stuff like the OL grant, Rakeesh's squire tournament idea, allowing the Talon into the WLT, and allowing the PC into the Diamond tournament. A large part of the WoL system seems designed to weed out less active players to prevent a glut of endgame players that overloads the challenge and tournament system. That's less a concern now due to lower population, and I think it's wise to give some one-shot opportunities to engage a few lower rank players with the endgame systems.

I liked that point of his a lot. We have a lot of people who come in and duel once and never come back or who duel five times a year. Then we have newer or lower ranks who really do work their butts off. Some incentives would be cool for those that are here and contributing.

tbh Duel of Magic offers challenge chances at 5 WoLs. If newer players are looking to get into the title game, they can start there at a smaller WoL threshold.

I'm unsure PC into DQ would work, because unlike Overlords -- Diamonds and Archmages are *required* to have 15 WoLs. If they are below it, they must face a gauntlet of emeralds until they regain the rank. It just wouldn't be possible, and would it be fair to those who worked hard to get to Emerald? Those are some important questions.

Low rank tournaments are in the works though. I'm planning on bringing back the Clash at Battlefield Park, which is a All Ranks Tournamernt for DoS where everyone, no matter what rank, fights at Warlord level. The prize, as Kalamere graciously said he would not mind doing, is a mini-title next to your name on the standings.

Rakeesh's Squire tournament is also a good idea, but if we look at it on the other hand. Who are choosing the squires? The barons. Are they hosting a tournament with active players, or giving it to their friends who may not be as active?

An Overlord can choose to host a tournament for their grants as well. I held one when King was OL, Charlie won it and fought Jake to become a Baron and won.

There's a lot of options that the community itself can do.

[Sabine]

I think Aric's got a point that it would be useful to give select lower ranked players with proven potential the ability to participate in the endgame. Stuff like the OL grant, Rakeesh's squire tournament idea, allowing the Talon into the WLT, and allowing the PC into the Diamond tournament. A large part of the WoL system seems designed to weed out less active players to prevent a glut of endgame players that overloads the challenge and tournament system. That's less a concern now due to lower population, and I think it's wise to give some one-shot opportunities to engage a few lower rank players with the endgame systems.

I liked that point of his a lot. We have a lot of people who come in and duel once and never come back or who duel five times a year. Then we have newer or lower ranks who really do work their butts off. Some incentives would be cool for those that are here and contributing.

tbh Duel of Magic offers challenge chances at 5 WoLs. If newer players are looking to get into the title game, they can start there at a smaller WoL threshold.

I'm unsure PC into DQ would work, because unlike Overlords -- Diamonds and Archmages are *required* to have 15 WoLs. If they are below it, they must face a gauntlet of emeralds until they regain the rank. It just wouldn't be possible, and would it be fair to those who worked hard to get to Emerald? Those are some important questions.

Low rank tournaments are in the works though. I'm planning on bringing back the Clash at Battlefield Park, which is a All Ranks Tournamernt for DoS where everyone, no matter what rank, fights at Warlord level. The prize, as Kalamere graciously said he would not mind doing, is a mini-title next to your name on the standings.

Rakeesh's Squire tournament is also a good idea, but if we look at it on the other hand. Who are choosing the squires? The barons. Are they hosting a tournament with active players, or giving it to their friends who may not be as active?

An Overlord can choose to host a tournament for their grants as well. I held one when King was OL, Charlie won it and fought Jake to become a Baron and won.

There's a lot of options that the community itself can do.

I like a lot of the ideas in place. As you know, I'm working on a low-rank tournament as well.

I don't know how the mechanics work and nothing against DoM but it was intimidating as hell for me. It probably wouldn't be my first choice as a new duelist. But I'm glad to hear you mention DoM because I feel like a lot of the conversations have been DoS heavy. Maybe duel-wide we need to look at more inclusion.

I agree, we also don't want people who have worked for titles or what not to feel shafted.

Per usual I don't know the answer but I hope we can at least treat everyone with kindness, do our best to involve others, and be aware of the concerns.

[Spell]

I don't know how the mechanics work and nothing against DoM but it was intimidating as hell for me.

Write spell names on post it notes and put it on a dart board. Proceed to throw darts and select what move you hit. You can now win DoM Challenges*.

*and DoS titles too tbh.

All joking aside though (not really about the DoS RNG part), if anyone is iffy on the DoM playstyle then feel free to come in on Tuesdays and ask. I don't mind doing mock duels with you in PM's and explain the game while the normal dueling goes on in the room; as long as I'm not swamped though.

[Cooper Gallows]

Some perspective (I hope):

I spent nearly a year Role-Playing on ROH and/or in dueling chats on RDI before ever logging a single duel. I came for the people and found the RP I was getting there (and usually still do) more palatable than what I was experiencing on the RDI side of things. Eventually I got talked into giving it a try. That first time? Madness. Kheldar wrecked me like 5 - 1.5 or something like that. Losing sucked, but the experience was fun. I started dueling more regularly and I want to say my first win ever was against Harris, which was (for obvious reasons) exciting as Hell.

Thanks to the players of Matt and Apple, I gained a passable understanding of the matrix (in Fists, mostly), the occasional pointer, and a lot of encouragement, but in like four or five months I never cracked Jade. Not the greatest thing and a little frustrating but the RP and the fun were still there, but to be fair, I never applied myself to getting a better grasp on improving. Involving myself as a captain in a dueling league event proved to be disastrous, with issues involving new players and old players alike discouraging me to the point of hanging it up and avoiding RoH for a while. It was something like four or five months after that a new friend convinced me I should give it a try again.

I made a new character. I didn’t tell anyone who I was and just tried to go at it fresh eyes. Some people ignored me. Some people tried to exploit my “newness”. But a handful of people took me under their wing and didn’t just encourage me, they actually took the time to teach me. Common combinations and tendencies, how to keep track of my own duels and learn my own patterns so I could break them. Having that help was important but just as important was the amount of time and effort I put into it.I made my climb to Emerald in DoF at a time when my only options most nights were to fight Emeralds, Emerald Alts, or a trio of other newish players. Being wary and picking my fights was necessary sometimes. Some weeks I was lucky to break even and there was a span of five weeks that I couldn’t get ahead to save my life. I managed to get to Emerald in less than a full cycle but like I mentioned previously, it involved some very good mentorship (which means more than just parking your character in a room and giving them an extra fancy) and a LOT of active dueling.

I’d really like to say that you get out of it what you put into it but that isn’t entirely true. Like poker, skill and luck sort of go hand in hand but the only way to excel and advance is to keep at it. Patience helps too. The eventual success can be its own reward.

Someone may argue this point, but I’ll say it anyway. Fancies aren’t everything. Mods are an advantage, sure, but an emerald/warlord/mage alt still has more experience with the matrix than you (assuming you’re new) and they still have an edge. Evening the playing field on mods only evens the overall playing field so much. Experience is still a thing.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while this is just a game, it IS a game that keeps track of wins and losses, which automatically makes it a competitive game. People play to have fun but they also play to win. With the new(er) player to old(er) player ratio, how much easier do you think a gentler set of rules will be? If anything it *could* make the hyper competitive players even more so and frustrate the newer or more casual players even more. Admittedly, I’m more on the side of the mechanics as they stand than the number crunching but only just so. Maybe I’m interpreting things a little differently but some of the various things written in this thread and others seem to me to point to the issue being one of needing to foster more success in the community than just “making it easier”. I think anything instant gratification where this type of game is concerned is a hard sell, that is unless the site admins want to start selling WoLs for site donations. Pay to win, fam.

Spell’s player mentioned the far less official and a more player driven “Titles”. It’s certainly lacks the more official and classic prestige but when things like story and RP are thrown around, why discount it completely? Good or bad, it was still a suggestion (based off of previous attempts and successes) and wasn’t tossed in anyone’s lap with any finality to it. Being elitist would have been saying “Suck it up and deal” or “Get good, son” and being unwelcoming would have been “If you don’t like it, don’t get your wiener stuck in the door on the way out”. People are worked up about the topic to varying degrees, so sometimes it’s good to just step back and get some perspective, and the suggestion offered was coming from someone who can be a little shit sometimes(but he’s MY little shit, damnit), but like a number of other people sharing on this thread, has given a LOT of his time and energy to the community across all the sports.

Ultimately, I don’t know that I could offer anything better on the feasibility of the Math better than people like Jake and Kal, both who are much better with numbers and who have been pillars of these sorts of discussions 12ever. In the meantime? Maybe some of these suggestions will help the new(er) players:


-Try to find a mentor who is more than just an extra mod, someone who is a very experienced
Duelist across any/all sports who is willing to take the time to work with you. It did wonders for me (Thank you Mel, Claire, Apple, and Queen for everything you guys did for me when I was really learning, even to present day!).

-Strategize. Pick your fights carefully. It may not be the fastest path but being choosy about when and who to fight can make a difference.

-Keep track of all of your fights. Track your own personal data and look for bad habits the others could pick up on. You’d be surprised how much it helps.

-If your opponent has rank on you, PM them and politely ask if they’d be willing to fight at your rank. You’d be surprised how many people are willing. When I went from Glass to Emerald, I can only think of one person who ever told me no and that was because they were ‘on the bubble’. It doesn’t hurt to ask and there’s no shame in asking. The worst they can say is no and keep in mind that they earned their rank just as you’re earning yours, so they may not want to. Still doesn’t hurt.

-Convince Harris that you are really a cute asian girl so that he will teach you the secrets of dueling greatness.

-Fight Matt. He’s old.

-Never give up. Never surrender. Keep at it and don’t throw in the towel. Perseverance is king!




-Coopy
“These colors don’t run.”