New Dueler's Perspective

[Kalamere]

There's a ton to address from Eva's 8 item list and following comments, some of which should probably have their own thread. It's also a very difficult list to address I think without pissing off one side of an issue or the other.

To me a lot of it comes down to a simple (though very hard to solve) dilemma: How do we become more welcome/open/friendly to the truly new duelist vs how do we do so without just making rank gain easier. I don't think there's a person here who doesn't want to see our numbers grow, I think that's a laudible and necessary goal. A lot of the language around how we encourage people to stay and keep trying, however, ends up at least hinting at making the rank climb easier.

I am happy to encourage and to teach from my experience. I've done write ups on the "do's and don't of DoS", and made a poor attempt at the same for DoF that I occasionally share when I stumble across someone who seems truly new to the games. That is kinda hard though, because I hate to come off as presumptuous or condescending in what's really just an attempt to be helpful.

On the other hand, I'm disinclined to see WoL growth for no good reason. The PC wins for example. Minimally I'd want that to be the WoL, not just the wins. Realistically in my mind though, special events are things unto themselves and just like WLT's, DQ, challenges.. those wins and losses don't count for anything beyond that event, or if they must then the risk of a loss added to your record ought to come with it.

The other problem I have with the discussion is how to identify the truly new duelist. For every one name we see that is someone who genuinely doesn't know what they're doing yet, there are probably another 20 who do. The other difficulty is for how long must they be treated with kid gloves? A month, a year, until they've reached GrandMaster?

If I'm on an alt I never feel like I have the advantage over someone who has the same number of mods. Maybe that's shortsighted, I dunno. I tend to think that unless it is the very first time I have seen that name in the room, then they have the matrix, some basic instruction and enough command over the game play to pose a challenge. I'll change my mind quickly the moment I see them LP in a round after I've high cut or do some other cardinal no-no, but unless that happens I think of us on the same footing. It's why I don't think poorly of anyone going in and fighting anyone else of low rank or putting an alt into the Talon/PC/umm.. DoM thing. I don't want to discourage anyone - but I do want to occasionally play my alt and will duel as best I can in the generally accepted rank +/- 1 format of ranking up.

I get that losing isn't all that fun and it can be frustrating, but I tend to feel that losing is a key component to this game and should continue to happen with the same consequences it always has. Is there a way to somehow make it more palatable? That was the goal with the weekly WoL reset, which I think has worked nicely. What more can be done?

[Luna Eva]

I try to tell people that are having a hard time at winning to keep working at it. Also, to stop worrying about winning for a while and enjoy other aspects of the duels.

I think this is a great thing, and it's something I have tried to do and encourage too. Both for myself and with others.

Duci, I don't think you're alone in your approach to dueling, and I so admire and love that approach. I know I've personally spoken with at least one or two other people who can just enjoy it, win or lose, for all the interaction and fun that comes with dueling. It's something I've tried to embrace myself. As I mentioned in my original post, I sort of decided I had to stop being precious with my own record if I wanted to just interact and have fun.

But I know there are other people who do feel like progress, or even the hope of progress are an essential part of their participation. And the feeling of pointlessness makes them not want to participate. I feel like we can alleviate some of that feeling of pointlessness.

I want to point out too, generally, that a lot of what I'm suggesting isn't necessarily about making new rules, it's about changing our own individual attitudes. For example, I don't know that we need a rule about who can and can't participate in low ranks tournaments. Both Cor and Lirssa have pointed out that who qualifies under the notion of new or low-ranked dueler can be very squidgy, and I agree. That said, there are some duelers who participate on alts that are decidedly less squidgy---current, active title holders or barons, multiple title holders or barons, etc.

As to the idea of new tournaments, I think those are really great, and the possibility of bringing new ideas to the duels in large and small ways that may appeal to more people is one of the reasons that I myself have gotten more involved in dueling in the last six months. That said, the cyclical tournaments are part of the current dueling establishment. How people experience those tournaments has a greater impact on the individual perception of dueling culture and attitudes than anything a one-time tournament or night can do.

Last, I also want to mention that not all of these ideas are going to apply or make sense for each of us. If you really feel strongly that you should be able to fight on an alt without giving your opponent a heads up that you've beaten them 10 times before, then I can't stop you. But there are other ways, as I suggested in my original post, that you can support and reach out to new duelers. I really believe that part of this is just acknowledging that sometimes a loss hurts the person behind the character, and being aware that there are ways for YOU to turn that experience around for them and make them feel more positive and welcome. This is particularly important if your character is a jerk.

One of the things that kept me coming back when I was starting out was the encouragement I received from other players. Now I try to do the same for others because I know how important it was to me.

[Andrea Anderson]

umm.. DoM thing.

Poor, poor Ring of Klytus. Always the odd man out.

[JewellRavenlock]

A long response to the thread is kind of percolating in my brain, but I did just want to throw this out there:

I don't think the problem is about making rank easier. It's about how people FEEL and making sure they don't feel like they're being taken advantage of and used as rank-up fodder for someone's alt.

I don't really count as new. I've been around dueling for ten years now, but I am new to having rank and taking the game a bit more seriously. I never minded losing overall. I've fell back to Glass just last year and took it relatively gracefully.

I do mind losing when I find out that someone who is an Emerald is fighting me on their lower ranked alt. This is especially disheartening when it's the same few people on multiple alts because then it really does go from, "They're just here on a different alt for some fun" to "I'm being targeted as an easy win." In fact, I stopped dueling as much for months because I disliked that feeling so much.

ETA: (although you probably all won't see this as you respond to me) I do get where you're coming from Kal. And I really do appreciate that people have tried to make things easier to rank. That's important. How people feel is even more important.

[Claire Gallows]

Okay, here are my two cents which only reflect me personally and none of the staff or anything like that. Grains of salt. All of them. Giant ass wall of text incoming, my apologies in advance for my rambling.

My interest in the duels started during the whole Not My Overlord debacle with Rakeesh back in 2013. I had watched a few duels under my very first username since one of the people I played with dueled. But I never participated until I created a new char and visited DoF on my own. I had zero friends in the duels but an established character was nice enough to engage me and convince me to duel. I got my ass handed to me but I had fun and from there I was hooked. It didn’t matter to me that the person I dueled was an alt of a former title holder with top ranks in several of the sports. I had fun. I came in at the time of the amazing combination of Seirichi/Harris/Matt/Koy/Candy as Opal holders. Wow. Talk about big shoes to fill. Since then, I’ve logged 1026 duels as of the end of May, ranked several chars, and held a handful of titles. I’ve mentored people, I’ve called, I’ve run teams, I’ve coordinated. Still, I’ve only been here for three years and 4-ish months, so I sort of end up in that weird place between being a veteran and being new. Too new to be old, too old to be new, you know?

Is being new hard? Yes, definitely.

Is ranking hard at first? Yes.

Is dueling hard at first? Yes.

But are there resources to help? Yes, and I think increasing awareness of those things might help ease new duelists' introduction to the sports.

There is the New Duelist Guide, there are practice games, there are readily available matrices (as opposed to having to figure out the matrix without it in front of you). There are free wins given to DoS and DoM for single night tournaments. There are weekly record resets in all three sports so you don’t have to wait a whole cycle to dig yourself out of a negative hole, record wise. There is a great mentor/neophyte program for DoM/DoF and the squire positions for DoS.

Does it suck dueling higher ranked people? Yes, ohmygod, yes.

One solution? Ask for them to fight you at rank. They’re entitled to say no, but often I see them say yes or even proactively offer to do so. Or hell, they don’t offer and just do it out of respect for the lower rank. Communicate. Ask and ye shall almost always receive. S'all about communication and respect for each other.

I made a list of everyone I've lost to in regulation over the past 3+ years and ohmygod it's long. Everyone and their brother is on it and I can still distinctly remember some of the duels, win or lose and how they made me feel. The list ranges the gamut from those that consistently wreck face across regulation, leagues, tournaments, whatever to the more casual duelists that you may not see very often if at all. There are alts of amazing duelists and primary characters and characters that I have no idea who they belong to. It furthers my belief that anyone can beat anyone else on any given day.

It’s not all winning. It’s not all dueling low ranks. It’s not all titles and tournaments and the like. It is a lot of work. A lot of losing. A lot of learning from people better than me. A lot of trial and error. But it's doable. Melanie Rostol went true glass to opal in like a month or something crazy. Hope just became an all title holder in DoF in less than 3 years. Charlie went from casual to Diamond in like a year. Blue launched himself to Emerald via the Golden Apple Grab in a week. All of those people started dueling seriously after me so it's super cool to see that kind of success from people that haven't been around all that long. They gave me hope when I kept losing and feeling like I was going to be Jade forever.

Let me address Eva’s main post here. I’m going to go bullet point by bullet point because for Eva they are all very valid and real concerns and as such they warrant consideration and answering. I know it's a big list and like Kal said, some of it's quite worthy of its very own threads so please don't hate me if my response to any particular point is lacking, I just want to make sure they're all given attention since you took the time to write them out.

“Primarily I was concerned with: 1) the difficulty of improving and advancing when I could not get a variety of regulation duels and was constantly facing the same few people or their alts; 2) the feeling of being exploited for wins or activity duels; 3) that mentorship was offered as a false solution (since no one actually wanted to put in the time to teach OOC); 4) feeling unwelcome in team events; 5) that low ranks tournaments intended to help new duelers were heavily attended by alts; and last, and really most important was 6) the constant dismissal of my frustrations by veteran duelers.

Since I wrote about the above problems, only two things have changed for me: I've been mentored by someone who was actually interested in OOC helping me learn and grow as a duelist and I have massively improved as a result; and also, I'm now significantly better at identifying alts so I rarely fight people without knowing the player behind it which saves me from the bad feelings that came from finding out who it was later.“

1) It’s definitely difficult to rank up when you’re stuck fighting the same people over and over but I do feel that eventually you get a feel for how someone fights and even on alts, you can use that to your advantage. That said, I know it’s difficult for some high rank people to get duels too because lower ranks shy away from dueling them regardless of offers to match rank. It can go both ways. That said, I don’t necessarily have a solution to that one at the moment, I can just acknowledge it happens.

2) Activity duels are a necessity for title holders and I’d like to think that they’re above sniping low ranks just for activity. If anything, I know I personally just take the first person that agrees to fighting me so I can get it done and taken care of. There have been times that I -can’t- get that though and have to essentially put out a call to my friends and hope they understand my plight enough to send someone in to duel with.

3) This one I’m a little hmm about because I’ve offered mentorships to people and been turned down. I’ve heard of several other players, in fact, that have offered to help and have been declined, so I really don’t feel like it is a false solution. I may not be the most eloquent teacher but my offers to assist are serious, genuine things and I try my best OOCly to offer guidance and tips and practice. That said, everyone’s learning style is different and unless I’m missing something, none of us are mind-readers. Communication is key when it comes to mentor/mentee relationships. If you need something different from your mentor, tell them.

4) I’d love to hear further elaboration. What sort of things made you feel unwelcome? Was it the competitiveness? The high stakes? Having trouble fitting in with established groups? The daunting task of trying to captain? When I ran Dirty in Hydra 2 and IFL Season 3, I got my ass handed to me over and over and over. And it made me want to give up. It really did. Until people like Matt and Harris and Rakeesh talked to me and told me this sort of thing is part of the learning curve but that it gets better and to keep my chin up. I didn’t believe them but they were right. It does get better with experience.

5) Totally valid. I’ve entered my fair share. But it goes back to Bob’s point further down that the number of “true new” duelists feels incredibly low. Do we want 2, 3, 4 person tournaments by restricting it to those that claim total newness? I suppose that’s for other people to answer. Ultimately, the reward of at least the TOR and PC are a single modifier for a single cycle. It would be interesting to see how many wins past winners have racked up over a cycle when using it. That said, I don’t necessarily have the time to dig that data up.

6) I don’t think anyone means to outright dismiss anyone’s concern whether new, old, or anywhere in between. As little as a year ago, I had an older player outright say to me “You wouldn’t understand because you’re new” and that was incredibly frustrating. I felt belittled and like my contributions to the community were lesser solely because I hadn’t been around as long. That said, there is definitely something to be said for the understanding that comes with being around longer. Perspective, so to speak. It’s why these sort of discussions seem to happen cyclically because new people come in and their viewpoint gives them a different idea of how things “should” be for new duelists. All of that aside, I think everyone here is adult enough (even the younger people) to have civil, respectful conversations about things. We may disagree with each other but that doesn’t make what we have to say any less valuable.

Okay. Moving on to the main bulk of the OP. There’s a lot here, so I apologize if I miss anything. Most of this was written at 2 in the morning and proofed at 6am sans coffee, just as a forewarning.

“1) As a community, stop denying our individual roles in making new duelers feel exploited”

Me, myself, and I, half of my fun comes from challenging myself to rank up. Generally, with a few exceptions, I’m also pretty “out” about my alts and I have seen people dodge dueling me for it. That’s their choice. They are the only ones responsible for how they feel about things so if they feel that not dueling me under my alts is best for them, that’s fine. If they feel angry or upset for dueling me and losing, that’s fine too. I offer things at rank, I try not to pick on new people, but I’m also not going to pass a chance to duel when my dueling time is slimmed down as it is. Conversely, I really don’t feel like we should have to out ourselves to people we don’t know. That’s a dangerous and slippery slope. So, how do we mitigate people's feelings that they're feeling victimized if that's not the case, without invalidating them as a whole? They're valid feelings, they just may be coming from sources that are difficult to combat without sacrificing privacy and a lot from others.

“2) Ask that no alts attend the low-ranks tournaments”

Alright. I can definitely see that. Are we cool with the possibility of having as few as 2-4 people in some of those tournaments? How do we determine who shouldn’t enter? Should you be unable to enter if you’ve been here a certain amount of time, should it be if you have any top rank alts, should it be if you’ve ever won the low rank title on another char? Each of those options presents a problem and requires a blending of IC/OOC that we need to decide if we want to accept.

“3) Let fighters keep their wins from the PC tournament.”

I can’t really speak to this one since that’s DoF realm but I see Kheldar and Kal have already responded which is cool. One thing to consider is how giving free wins during tournaments may impact regulation. If you can pick up freebies every cycle, how do we incentivize regulation?

“4) Save a spot on your team for a new dueler.”

While it’s important to include new faces in team dueling, it’s also important not to mandate it because that sort of affirmative action is just a bad time all around. Also, is this as intense of a problem as it’s being made out to be? For instance, last IFL, 6 of the 8 teams had new people on them. I’d say that’s a pretty good percentage.

“5) Demonstrate your interest in new duelers.”

I’ve seen some terrific engagement in the rooms from callers and duelists. People like Eden, Lirssa, Jewell, Dris, Maggie, they’re all very engaging and welcoming to new faces. That’s just a general thing that should be emulated in every room, dueling or not. That said, considering how limited some of our freetime/playtime can be, we should probably be careful about chastising others if they don’t have the time/energy/motivation to proactively reach out to people.

“6) A leadership presence from the coordinators”

The amount of behind the scenes things happening to keep everything going smoothly and cyclical tournaments running on time and coordinating callers and standings updated regularly, etc. It’s a little mind boggling. Two of the seven weeknights are called by coords or coord alts. Add in the Caller Coord and that’s almost half of the shifts being taken by the players behind the senior staff. Coordinators also need the opportunity to simply exist in the community as players, especially if they want to maintain the proper perspective to be able to to participate in discussions like this. After all, this is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby for us all right?

“7) Help snowball regulation. HELP REGULATION.”

I might be misunderstanding the intent of this in conjunction with other suggestions here, so I apologize if I'm interpreting it incorrectly. Promoting regulation is always a good thing, and there have been several events over the last few years that have done just that. However paired with other suggestions here, people might feel restricted in how they're supposed to enjoy regulation, which won't inspire or encourage them to come out.

“8 ) No more sacred cows.”

Honestly, I can’t say it was terribly harder for me (if at all) when I started because I came in after the point of weekly resets. One of the people that got me to come watch dueling for the first time though, he at one point dug himself a 20-ish duel negative record in multiple sports in a single cycle. Talk about an exercise in frustration and futility. I’m really grateful for a lot of the changes that have been made to benefit newer, more casual duelists. That said, I do want to see the all participants’ efforts respected too so there should be a balance between casual atmosphere and competitiveness. Competition drives so much, I don’t want to see it killed for the sake of stripping things down to bare bones and seeing how easy we can make it.

In summation, I’d like to repeat what I already said. Is dueling hard? Yep. Is ranking hard? Yep. Do those of us who have gone through it know that? Yep, yep, yep. Are there resources in the former of the new duelist’s guide, practice games, weekly resets, and mentoring programs? Most definitely. I try to share those as much as I can but perhaps better visibility for them could help. Maybe it's something to consider. Okay, now that I've written a novel, that’s all I’ve got. For now.

[Awkward]

I’ve thought really long and hard about this thread and the pair of others that have sprouted within the last week. I’ve been incredibly hesitant about even wanting to respond, but if you’re reading this it means I either gathered the confidence or support from friends that I have something worthy to say (to be read).

I started dueling two years and just shy of two months ago. Does that qualify as new?

I have characters that were made for the purpose of dueling, characters that were made for the purpose of spectating, characters that were made for role-playing on the RDI side and then filtered through to RoH to duel --- most likely out of boredom, something additional to pass the time on. Since I have multiple characters, do I need to tell everyone that in addition I also play A, B, and C?

So far now I’ve held two titles, both in Magic, and it’s the only sport that I’ve ever reached 15 WoL in. Magic is “my sport”. I was jokingly called something akin to the “Magic Guru” because I initially flew up the ranks and held the RoK two cycles straight in a row. Want to know a little dirty secret though?

I have no clue what I am doing in DoM.

How do I pick my moves round to round?

Gee, what do I feel like role-playing / writing out for this round? I am completely serious about that.

The point I’m trying to make is that dueling Magic for me is just a game, a game of chance, a game of change that I’m somehow managed to be successful in. (Sorry Sally Whitemane, the Darkness isn’t secretly on Grace’s side.)

I have been mentored in all three sports (officially) by a trio of other players. All three players had a distinctly different teaching style, and perhaps ironically the sport I’m the most successful in is the one that I just nodded and smiled at Claire and just did my own thing no matter what she said. Star pupil right here.

Now for the moment, I’d like to discuss my experiences in Fists and Swords, which I would suggest seem to be the more actively competitive sports (or at least over DoM because there’s such a smaller pool). I tried out DoF first out a combination of my best friend was becoming a growing success in Fists and had reached emerald, along with me wanting to see “what all the fuss was about”.

It was a Friday Fight Night and my first duel was one Mr. Matt Simon. After I lost (but it was close and 7 - 6!!), Matt reached out to me, commenting on the close match and found out that I was brand new. He was supportive, kind and encouraging and later on it was actually because of him that I even branched out to try the other sports. My second match that night was against Queen, who also won, but reached out and talked to me about dueling and welcoming me to the community. I’d like to stress that I never felt unwelcomed when I was first coming out. I have never felt shunned by higher ranked players, nor targeted by them. Neither Matt nor Queen exploited their 6 mods on me that night, they each used a single one the entire fight. I wasn’t aware of the notion of asking to fight at rank, but I’d also like to state that I did not feel targeted or used in that situation.

The very next day when I came in to duel and keep trying things out (this was of the time when we had daytime Saturday dueling) two things happened. 1) Melanie reached out to me and offered a mentee spot. I hadn’t spoken to her yet, but she had heard about my previous night and that I was new. I was grateful and she offered assistance for a foundation in DoF. 2) I lost a match to a writing partner of mine who did not know that I was testing out dueling. They were also new to the game and when it finished they PMed me to thank me for the match and alluded to a rumor that I was probably an emerald alt. This rumor was birthed because the previous night I did what was labeled as a “combo move”, “pro-tip”, “displayed emerald knowledge of the game”. Needless to say, I “outted” myself immediately and told them who I was, that I really was brand new, etc etc.

This brings me to another point that I’d like to make: We judge people on our impressions of them. These impressions can be completely false. And then who is at fault when they are false or inaccurate impressions? Is anyone?

I’m not certain if this will come to a shock to anyone but, I have never ranked above Ruby, nor have I ever ranked above Master at Arms. I have never won a tournament in either Fists or Swords (and to be fair, I haven’t won an All Ranks or Archmage Tournament in Magic either, only the recent Blessed Beltane Tower of Air Tournament -- Oh look, there I go outing myself again). I am truly a mediocre or average player, who can be successful and can also lose. Repeatedly.

Do I qualify as a new player though? I’ve never won any low rank tournament before. Have I given other people the impression that I have several emerald alts? What have I done to give people the false impression that I’m vastly successful in these sports? Do I need to expose my alts so people will know for sure that I’m really just a ruby - jade level dueler and I’m not there to shark them, I’m there to find someone who is either at my level to duel or anyone willing to duel. When I win, is that a fluke? Was it because my opponent was having a bad night? Was it because I had a stroke of luck? What are the other people observing thinking? What can be done about the false impression? How necessary is it for me, a low ranking player, to give another low ranking player a heads up that “Hey this is a new character, but I have an inactive ruby from March 2015, just to let you know.” Where do we draw the line, or does it need to be drawn?

Don’t want to leave out DoS in the mix of this either, because I’d even go so far as to say that Swords is the sport that I have received the most help on, along with a certain level of recognition (without holding an actual title). Grace was Shadow’s Squire, then G’s, then Rhiannon’s and then King’s. Four different barons, all hopeful that Grace could use the squire weapon / mod to move up in rank. The barons offered practice, tips (both IC and OOC), and support and encouragement to get in the ring to try to rise in rank. One baron is still a constant open book of advice and explanations should I go to them with questions. Another offered to take me on a second time, because (as I believe) they want me to succeed, they want people learning and developing their skills. I declined only because I was priming myself for a lengthy break from dueling, even though I shockingly (to me and a majority of Madness gamblers) went through to the third round in Madness. (Another outting there.)

At the end of my second IFL season, I discovered that I was in the very same position as the previous year. Somehow my team and I had managed to get to the finals with the odds stacked against us. We were by far the underdog, but we were certainly trying to pull it off. I wrote an IC post in the In Your Face Raw Footage thread, and I would like to quote it here:

We were the dark horse that no one was expecting to take it all the way to the Finals. We didn’t win the championship, but come on, it’s Top Flight.” Shrugging as she laughed. “You can’t be disappointed that we lost to Harris. That’s like being upset you get beat by Jake Thrash. You’re just stoked to be in the ring with these guys and try your best. Learn from your mistakes and try to step up the next go around.

And then continued on with:

If anything this season taught us and should teach everybody really – it’s a numbers game

just goes to show you that sometimes you never know who is going to win and you can’t count the Underdog out. Because you know, sometimes, we win.”

And lastly:

“While no one necessarily really likes to lose, someone has to. This season, just happened to me.

As much as I would totally take a freely offered 15 WoL in any of the sports, that certainly shouldn’t be an option. --Not that it was suggested it should be, but I do feel that all three sports do offer up quick and easy WoLs to ranks in various ways throughout the year.

Good sportsmanship is going to be key in moving forward. Reach out to your opponent after the match if you’re unfamiliar with them, hopefully you’ll be relaying that you had fun in the game, whether it was win or lose. Losing for me is always more palatable when my opponent is polite to me, asks for consent regarding a violent move, or even if their role-play in the room shows that they’re working with me as opposed to writing at me.

Working around false impressions is going to be another. I have been in at least one incident when a false impression immediately ruined game play for myself and others. I still regret it to this day and am apologetic for it.

This was insanely longer than I expected it to be, so thank you for reading.

[Sabine]

Just wanted to say everyone has great points. I've enjoyed reading every response.

There are good things and negative things to being new or lower level.

I still have no good answers but I can see both sides of the coin.

I have loved being new and working my way up but I have also experienced frustrations along the way.

I just wanted to tell everyone thank you for speaking up and sharing your thoughts whether it is an unpopular opinion or not. You are being heard and your thoughts do matter.

If anything, I am learning how much more I need to step it up to reach out to others so thank you for the reminder.

Any one of you are always welcome to approach me IC or OOC, in PM, Chatroom, or AIM and I will do whatever I can to help you or hear you.

[Luna Eva]

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. I'm not going to be able to reply to everything that was said, nor do I think that's necessary. But I just want to make sure it's clear that I have carefully read and thought about everything that's been posted here, and appreciate everyone who has stepped up to share their thoughts. I'm going to do some response posts where I can, but I hope you'll be patient with me.

A lot of the language around how we encourage people to stay and keep trying, however, ends up at least hinting at making the rank climb easier.

I understand why it seems this way, but to echo what both Jewell and Mason have said I think it's more about making sure that new fighters have appropriate expectations about what they're going to experience when they fight a dueler they encounter in the room or when they enter a tournament.

If I'm on an alt I never feel like I have the advantage over someone who has the same number of mods. Maybe that's shortsighted, I dunno. I tend to think that unless it is the very first time I have seen that name in the room, then they have the matrix, some basic instruction and enough command over the game play to pose a challenge.

Sure, they pose a challenge to you. Like Claire said, anyone can win any fight. But I really do not believe a new duelist has anywhere near the same advantage as someone who has been dueling for multiple years simply because they have the same number of mods.

I clearly remember the moment the matrix began to crystallize and make more sense to me as a logic game. That didn't happen the first, third, or even fifth time I dueled. Back then, I was still occasionally misreading the matrix and making simple thought errors. It took a lot of fights, a lot of practice, including encountering different situations, and then new situations when I was learning how to use and counter mods. All of that was helpful and necessary to my improvement. But it had nothing to do with mods. Maybe we just disagree, but to me, a person who has to open the matrix and actively read it is not on the same footing as a person who doesn't even have to look at it.

So given my position on that, the feeling that Mason described so well as feeling pool sharked by an alt is not a good feeling. That's the reason that I'm asking to focus on expectations and experience, not on making ranking easier or helping new duelers not lose.

The other problem I have with the discussion is how to identify the truly new duelist. For every one name we see that is someone who genuinely doesn't know what they're doing yet, there are probably another 20 who do. The other difficulty is for how long must they be treated with kid gloves? A month, a year, until they've reached GrandMaster?

Yeah, the existence of alts is a challenge, one I'm trying to address here. But what's the worst that can happen? You wind up saying something nice to someone you already know under another name? You give someone a warning 'hey I'm top-ranked on another char' and then they say 'no problem, me too'? The thing is, I don't think the treatment of people that I'm requesting is the sort of thing that ever has to end. I feel like what you're asking is "how long do I have to be kind and considerate to someone?" and my answer is, "forever."

[Andrea Anderson]

All of that was helpful and necessary to my improvement. But it had nothing to do with mods. Maybe we just disagree, but to me, a person who has to open the matrix and actively read it is not on the same footing as a person who doesn't even have to look at it.

tbh I still open up the DoM matrix during challenges.. I still don't know fully what immolation beats.

-says a former archmage-

[Kalamere]

All of that was helpful and necessary to my improvement. But it had nothing to do with mods. Maybe we just disagree, but to me, a person who has to open the matrix and actively read it is not on the same footing as a person who doesn't even have to look at it.

tbh I still open up the DoM matrix during challenges.. I still don't know fully what immolation beats.

-says a former archmage-

I still keep the DoF matrix open too =)

[Andrea Anderson]

All of that was helpful and necessary to my improvement. But it had nothing to do with mods. Maybe we just disagree, but to me, a person who has to open the matrix and actively read it is not on the same footing as a person who doesn't even have to look at it.

tbh I still open up the DoM matrix during challenges.. I still don't know fully what immolation beats.

-says a former archmage-

I still keep the DoF matrix open too =)

HIGHFIVE.

"What does hook beat"
"idfk dude I don't even use that."

^convo I've had countless times.

[Claire Gallows]

tbh I still open up the DoM matrix during challenges.. I still don't know fully what immolation beats.

-says a former archmage-

I still keep the DoF matrix open too =)

HIGHFIVE.

"What does hook beat"
"idfk dude I don't even use that."

^convo I've had countless times.

Oh good, I'm not the only one.

[Sabine]

I still keep the DoF matrix open too =)

HIGHFIVE.

"What does hook beat"
"idfk dude I don't even use that."

^convo I've had countless times.

Oh good, I'm not the only one.

Every single duel it is open and I am looking at it. For all 3 sports. It's my security blanket. Also sometimes my brain just dies and I can't remember what anything does. lol

[Kalamere]

You give someone a warning 'hey I'm top-ranked on another char' and then they say 'no problem, me too'? The thing is, I don't think the treatment of people that I'm requesting is the sort of thing that ever has to end. I feel like what you're asking is "how long do I have to be kind and considerate to someone?" and my answer is, "forever."

Sorry, Eva, and I don't mean to be rude, but I can't get onboard with that. I like to think myself a generally considerate person overall and I think perhaps maybe if you're on a low rank alt specically hunting down new folks that's probably a different thing, but sending an IM from an alt I'm on to the low rank person I'm about to duel to warn them I have a warlord / emerald isn't a thing I'm willing to do. I kinda suck at keeping the identity of my alts a secret as it is, I don't really want to narrow the field of choices further.

My take is generally this: If you're a low rank duelist and can get a fight with someone on equal mod footing, then you're already ahead of the game. It could be a high ranked character agreeing to forego their mod advantage or it could be an equal ranked character that's actually a walord/emerald/mage alt.. which amounts to the same thing I guess.

I know that personally if I head into DoM that's what I hope for (a game for which I can't even name all the moves, let alone remember the matrix). And, honestly, I'd rather fight a mage willing to match my mods than to fight a Sorcerer or Wizard.

I can understand, I guess, a greater sense of frustration when finding out you (generic) just lost to a warlord in disguise, especially if you'd already lost to that person as their warlord a couple times. I think you might go too far, however, to assume bad motives on that person's part though. I'm far more likely, in a room typically dominated by higher ranked characters, to think we've both made out well by finding an at rank duel when I'm on an alt, than to think "sweet, easy win.. totally going to exploit this!"

[Luna Eva]

Claire, first of all, thank you so much for being so thorough and thoughtful in your response. I really appreciate it. I know it takes a lot of time not just to think through this stuff but also to write it out, and I appreciate you doing that.

I can't respond to everything you wrote in the same way you did cause we're just going to wind up with exponentially longer and longer posts! There are a lot of areas where we agree, and some where we're just going to disagree, and that's okay, that's life. But I'd like to try to respond to some things you pointed out, especially where you asked direct questions.

It’s definitely difficult to rank up when you’re stuck fighting the same people over and over but I do feel that eventually you get a feel for how someone fights and even on alts, you can use that to your advantage.

This is very true. But I think you're also pointing out why alts have an additional advantage when they know who they're fighting and the non-alt dueler doesn't. It's one of the reasons why encountering alts early in your dueling experience can feel not great. They know who you are, but you don't know who they are.

Activity duels are a necessity for title holders and I’d like to think that they’re above sniping low ranks just for activity.

To clarify, this is more about the way this is experienced by new duelers. They see highly titled names maybe once every three months and then disappear again. I understand and am sympathetic that activity duels are necessary and occasionally hard to get. But when you're grinding it out, trying to get a variety of duels, trying to learn, and someone with a title shows up once, gets a quick activity duel, no roleplay or interaction, and then doesn't show up again for another three months, it's just a bummer.

This one I’m a little hmm about because I’ve offered mentorships to people and been turned down.

I fully admit I turned down a few mentorship offers when I started out. Initially it was because I wasn't sure how much I was going to duel and I thought it would be rude to take a spot and then not use it. That was me learning the dueling culture and figuring out where I wanted to fit in it. But once I committed to learning, I asked if there was a possibility of OOC assistance involved with mentorship offers and declined when I was told that there wasn't. So this is probably a depends-on-the-person thing. Mentorship is not, as I so strongly stated in my first writing, a false solution, but there are limits to its effectiveness (especially since as I somewhat explained to Kal above I don't think the value in mentorship is in the extra mod) and it depends who it comes from.

I’d love to hear further elaboration. What sort of things made you feel unwelcome?

This was something I observed rather than experienced. In fact, I started dueling because I had such a great time in IFL 2014 with Royal Pain. But when Hydra 2015 rolled around, I decided to coach a team since there seemed to be some stranded new duelers searching for teams on the board as the deadline neared. A similar thing happened during IFL 2015, and I wasn't able to offer the person a slot, sadly. Is everyone guaranteed a spot? Of course not. It's on the individual's shoulders to try to find a team. But that's not easy when you're relatively new or don't have an OOC group of dueling friends. Someone who was a fairly regular dueler prior to IFL 2015 no longer comes around anymore from what I can tell. And that's just a bummer to see.

It’s why these sort of discussions seem to happen cyclically because new people come in and their viewpoint gives them a different idea of how things “should” be for new duelists.

I don't mean to nitpick this out, but I feel like I have heard the reference to new dueler's complaints being cyclical before. First, you're right, of course, that experience brings an equally valuable perspective. And I don't mean to dismiss that perspective and if my original post sounded like I was, I apologize. That was not my intention at all. But the thing is, it seems like I'm hearing that regulation dueling and the dueling community generally has been steadily shrinking over the years. And over the same years, we cyclically hear from new duelers about their frustrations. Some of those frustrations are addressed---I don't know how long ago the changes were made to begin zeroing out losses weekly---but maybe some of the remaining issues I'm raising about the dueling culture are not addressed. If the decline continues, despite changes to the rules attempting to help new duelers, then maybe what's needed is more than rules changes to address these cyclical concerns of new duelers.

They're valid feelings, they just may be coming from sources that are difficult to combat without sacrificing privacy and a lot from others.

Just to clarify, I don't think anyone needs to submit a click-wrap agreement to a potential opponent with a list of alts and their ranks and titles and a prompt to sign on the dotted line before agreeing to duel. The idea is more a quick heads up, "hey, this is a new char, but I'm top-ranked on another char." You may still have the advantage of knowing their dueling style when they don't know yours, but at least they can mentally prepare their fight expectations.

I understand that may still feel like a sacrifice of your privacy. But in my experience, and the experience repeated to me by others, I'm much more willing to take a fight from someone when I can make an educated choice about the level of challenge I'm facing.

Still may not be what you're looking for, but maybe that's a do-able middle ground for some people who would rather not out alts.

Alright. I can definitely see that. Are we cool with the possibility of having as few as 2-4 people in some of those tournaments? How do we determine who shouldn’t enter? Should you be unable to enter if you’ve been here a certain amount of time, should it be if you have any top rank alts, should it be if you’ve ever won the low rank title on another char? Each of those options presents a problem and requires a blending of IC/OOC that we need to decide if we want to accept.

I am 100% comfortable with having a few thinly attended tournaments if it means we can start to build a confidence that people attending the tournaments are facing people operating within the same ballpark of experience and skill. As I mentioned before, I don't think a hard and fast rule can be created on this. I think, like Sabine said earlier, that this is an individual choice where we each need to self-assess and make the personal decision whether we think it's still appropriate to participate. I was on the fence last PC tournament since I had briefly hit Emerald and then fell out of it. My decision will probably be different moving forward, Emerald or not.

Also, I think half of my point in this entire discussion we started is that dueling is inherently an IC/OOC blended experience. There is always a person behind the computer who is winning and losing, who brings with them a certain level of experience and skill to every character they play under regardless of rank. The IC/OOC blending is inevitable.

If you can pick up freebies every cycle, how do we incentivize regulation?

I don't think this is a true disincentive to regulation. Even if the PC tournament allowed you to keep your wins, we're talking about two people maybe getting to keep three or four wins maximum per tournament. If you waited to fight only on PC nights with the hopes of being one of those two people rather than risk losses during regulation, we're talking, at best, that you'd hit Emerald in a year or a year and a quarter. That just seems unlikely to me. Some people, as we've all acknowledged, just prefer tournaments. And that's a different discussion.

Specifically, your responses to numbers 4, 5, and 6---I agree with a lot of your points there and think that's totally fair. Consider it noted. And about coordinators, I'd like clarify that when you said that coordinators should be allowed to "simply exist in the community as players" that was exactly what I meant. I meant coordinators coming to enjoy the duels. I, personally, have felt a noticeable difference in the rooms when coordinators come to duel and enjoy the experience. I hope that's something they're still able to do and seeing them there means a lot.

However paired with other suggestions here, people might feel restricted in how they're supposed to enjoy regulation, which won't inspire or encourage them to come out.

I don't think what I'm suggesting is absurdly restricting. A lot of it is stuff some people do already. As I said before in this thread, not every single thing that I'm suggesting is going to make sense for every individual. If you already say encouraging things, if you simply do not have time to offer OOC mentorship to new duelers, if you already look-out for duelers without a team for leagues, if you try to duel with an awareness and a kindness towards others, then there's not much to change. And that's fine. My emphasis on helping regulation is based on the theory that the more interactions people have with different players, the less likely one bad duel (whatever that means to them) is going to matter.

This goes primarily to Grace's response. First, Grace, thank you so much for posting. I think we feel similar discomfort about posting (I'm kind of hating my life right now) so I particularly appreciate you speaking out. Like you, Grace, I also had some fantastic and encouraging interactions in my early experience that kept me coming back despite some of the frustrations I felt at times. But both things can be true at the same time. It can be true that you have had a great experience dueling, have had some success, have had some encouragement, and have experienced only one incident you would consider negative. It can also be true that other people are having more negative interactions than positive ones and that's making them not want to stick around.

We can't bubble wrap new duelers and protect them from all of the things that might go wrong with their first or early experiences in dueling. I get that. But like I said in my first post, if we are in fact looking at a declining interest in dueling, and people are expressly stating that some of these things are the reasons why they stopped participating (which they are, to me) then at least we can keep thinking about and talking about ways to try to boost their positive experiences and minimize their negative ones.

All my original post was, and all I'm trying to do here, is to get us to start thinking about ways to do that. If you read my post and felt none of it applied to you, then GOOD ON YA! Thanks for being a positive member of this community. If you read it and you could see some things that fit, and some things that didn't, then maybe consider if there is some little ways you can mitigate some of the choices you make that I'm saying might negatively affect other duelers.

Frankly, some of the things on this list apply to me. I'm not perfect. There have been nights where my interaction has been sloppy and I have not given enough of my attention to interacting with a dueling opponent. Where I haven't thanked my opponent, or reached out to a new person in the room or on a team or whatever. But I know what made a difference for me in a positive way, and I'm just going to keep trying my best to do and be that for other people, and hope that makes a difference to improving the experience of others and keeping our community healthy for the future. I think that's what we all want.