Regarding the Tuesday DoM and DoF Combo Night

[Jaycy Ashleana]

Jake.. God love ya.
BUT.
Magic has suffered since the combination. Harris gave you numbers.

We were lied to. One month. That's what was said. One month to try it.
Then... all of sudden it's two.. and now.. Indefinite.

And Lem has given reasons for the "drop" and noted the positive numbers, such as 2 new (and I believe genuinely new) players in one month. Hard numbers never tell the whole story because they're usually taken in a vacuum and not in context. Statistics CAN lie.

DoM used to go MONTHS without a single new player. DoM at one point had Mondays solo. That shift got killed because no one showed - no one as in no duels for multiple weeks in a row. When it was solo. Mondays came back temporarily for the last IG War and only because *I* was the one who was willing to call the special Monday shift.

Aja, I feel like this is less about what's good for DoM and more some personal vendetta against DoF, the way you're putting it.

Your bias against DoF is blinding you to what's in DoM's best interest for survival and even growth.

[Harris]

Jake.. God love ya.
BUT.
Magic has suffered since the combination. Harris gave you numbers.

Well...Harris' numbers aren't really complete. If you look at recent Fight Nights for example, DoF is also crushing DoS.

Does that mean DoF is hurting DoS too? Has the option to fight DoS gone away? Or is it just that DoF is popular night now?

DoF being popular doesn't mean DoM "suffered". There's always still been an option to duel DoM.

It's cyclical, and always has been. There are ups and downs. And there will be in the future too.

I don't really think comparing this to Fight Night is very apt for a few reasons. For starters, it's held in what has become a neutral setting, the Annex. It also doesn't consist of sports that were held on the same night in separate rooms, unless we're comparing this to when Fight Night first came into being. I can't remember if there were multiple sports running on Friday or Sunday.

I think the concern here is that the only night Twilight Island is open appears to be moving toward being a DoF night. That DoM is being marginalized in favor of DoF. The numbers don't really lie about that. I think it's worrisome for DoM if the duels for the sport continue to trend downward, while DoF trends upward. People who potentially enjoy DoM and would like to show up to that setting and strictly enjoy DoM don't have that option. The other two sports do. Mondays for DoF in the Outback (since Wednesday is also a joint night) and Thursday/Saturday for DoS in the Arena.

The questions become, is that a viable complaint? Is there a large contingent of people, enough to be detrimental to the sport if they don't show up, that want the Isle to remain DoM only on Tuesdays? If this was happening with either of the other sports would it be so easily shrugged aside?

[DUEL Misty]

This is just my two cents' worth.

Overall dueling, including challenges, excluding special tournaments (tag-team, unofficial tourneys, fists-only tournaments) read currently as follows, between the dates of July 1st and August 8th.

DoF-228 duels (3 challenges)

DoS-122 duels (5 challenges)

DoM-29 duels (1 challenge)

Currently available dueling nights are as follows:
DoF: Sunday (FN), Monday (RDI), Tuesday (Combo RoH), Wednesday (Combo RoH), Friday (FN), Saturday (Afternoon FN) = 6 shifts

DoS: Sunday (FN), Thursday (RoH), Friday (FN), Saturday (Afternoon FN), Saturday (RDI Evening) = 5 shifts

DoM: Sunday (FN), Tuesday (Combo RoH), Wednesday (Combo RoH), Friday (FN), Saturday (Afternoon FN) =5 shifts.

This is the data I currently have in front of me, for a 38 day period. I don't know precisely why the drop in DoM interest, nor can I effectively say restricting people to a single choice of dueling will boost that particular sport. However, both DoF and DoS have had their singular nights in the past, and I haven't noticed any complaining about the lack of the other two sports, on those nights.

[Jaycy Ashleana]

This is the data I currently have in front of me, for a 38 day period. I don't know precisely why the drop in DoM interest, nor can I effectively say restricting people to a single choice of dueling will boost that particular sport. However, both DoF and DoS have had their singular nights in the past, and I haven't noticed any complaining about the lack of the other two sports, on those nights.

It has been said time and again that if people are only given one choice, they are more likely to not come at all. So I feel it is safe to argue that restricting choice will not boost the "open" sport.

[Jake]

I think the concern here is that the only night Twilight Island is open appears to be moving toward being a DoF night. That DoM is being marginalized in favor of DoF. The numbers don't really lie about that. I think it's worrisome for DoM if the duels for the sport continue to trend downward, while DoF trends upward. People who potentially enjoy DoM and would like to show up to that setting and strictly enjoy DoM don't have that option. The other two sports do. Mondays for DoF in the Outback (since Wednesday is also a joint night) and Thursday/Saturday for DoS in the Arena.

The questions become, is that a viable complaint? Is there a large contingent of people, enough to be detrimental to the sport if they don't show up, that want the Isle to remain DoM only on Tuesdays? If this was happening with either of the other sports would it be so easily shrugged aside?

I think the answer is in two parts. Is it about the dueling? Or the setting?

If it's about the dueling, as far as *I* am concerned, Fight Night is what best promotes the forum. The more opportunities people have for *all* sports is a good thing. Were it my decision (starting fresh), it would be all Fight Night, all the time. Obviously it's not solely my decision.

If it's about the setting...I don't see how the fact that other sports being played in the same venue is a problem. Does it fit the genre of the setting? Maybe not. Neither does DoF in Star's End, but that seems to be popular enough that Kheldar wants to do it on a recurring basis.

I don't think the RP related to the setting is limited by the sports being fought in the venue.

Are there more DoF duels currently than DoM...sure...I won't argue that. But, the fact that DoF is dominating the Annex doesn't make the Annex less the Annex. Or Star's End. The setting is the setting.

And the numbers can change.

Historically, prior to every TDL season, DoS duels spiked. Prior to IFL seasons, DoF duels spiked. I would imagine the same will be true if there's ever a DoM league of some sort.

I don't think the answer is to promote DoM by limiting the other sports, but by finding ways to promote DoM activities.

The *overall* goal is to support dueling. We want that. Of any kind. DoF/DoM/DoS/DoG/Hydra/Tour de Rhydin/Duel Assassin/TDL/IFL. ALL of it advances the interests the forum. Limiting options seems like a backwards step.

[Andrea Anderson]

I don't think the solution is to have solo-sport nights (except as a special event), but instead to have the special tournies and events. Things like double-win months. Things like DoF at Star's End. And special tournies with usable prizes (gems and so forth). I think these are the things that do more to promote a sport.

I've spoken with both Lem and Claire and have been working on a DoM event for the past 3ish hours. It should be, hopefully, posted by me tomorrow once I work out the RP fluff details, etc.

So something is coming! Soonish! Very soonish!

[Misty]

I'm simply playing Devils' advocate here.

Are there going to be combo DoM/DoS nights? DoF/DoS? Are we, in fact, moving toward a scenario where every shift is a Fight Night?

It really is seeming that way, when you take a step back and look at the progression of things.

Is DoM suffering from a low draw period? Yes. DoS, also suffering lower numbers than history shows. Is it unfair that DoS and DoF have two nights of solo activity for each, compared to DoM's 0? Yes, it is.

Will me saying this solve a dang thing? Most likely not.

The question floating through my mind is this. If a change in format/venue (meaning the Combo nights) is causing players (general use term, not specific) to be unhappy, or a certain policy is causing players to be unhappy, then why are they happening?

I understand, nobody's going to be happy with every decision that comes down the line, but no amount of "Oh, look! We're going to do this instead" is going to placate people already dissatisfied with something that's happened.

Not playing down this tournament idea, creativity's a good thing, much kudos for that ... but what happens when it's over? There's already a DoF accumulation-tournament in the works, essentially with the same format.
Are these tournament things going to happen month after month, to keep participation up? I hope not, because then it's boring all over again.

So what's going to be done?

[PrlUnicorn]

Thanks, Lem, for answering.

I don't think the solution is to have solo-sport nights (except as a special event), but instead to have the special tournies and events. Things like double-win months. Things like DoF at Star's End. And special tournies with usable prizes (gems and so forth). I think these are the things that do more to promote a sport.

I've spoken with both Lem and Claire and have been working on a DoM event for the past 3ish hours. It should be, hopefully, posted by me tomorrow once I work out the RP fluff details, etc.

So something is coming! Soonish! Very soonish!

This a good idea. However, it behooves all concerned to take other major events into consideration when making plans for these things.

I ran into this when I was setting up the Winterfest Ball. The date for it had been set and advertised well before a DoM tournament on the same night. When I approached Lem about the possible conflict, he informed me that he didn't know as he wasn't keeping up with the RDI announcements. That was on me for not posting in Town Crier sooner.

So, how does this relate to the proposed DoM tournament, starting on Sunday, and the combo night discussion?

Instead of having a DoM tournament colliding with a major cyclic DoS event that was planned quite a while in advance and often draws people away from Fight Night, why not make Monday a combo night just for this week and run the tournament M-W to include those players that normally show on Wednesday?

[Kalamere]

The people avoiding the Isle combo night and/or wanting DoM to have a solo night again should make a case for it. I don't believe that "DoM is more mellow" (no offense to Aja) is a very strong argument. It could simply be more mellow because fewer people show up. I feel like that issue is being danced around, except for what Napoleon wrote.. which may have been a touch too caustic to be productive.

The duel counts for DoM on Tuesday's aren't really down. The current average is right on par with what we were seeing in Feb. and March (excepting the first Tuesday in Feb, which was 12 duels, that being far and away the highest number seen all year). DoM usually sees 2 duels on a Tuesday night. That went up during April and March after the merge, but has since come back down. Moral of the story: In strict terms of Magic duels fought, the Tuesday merge has neither helped nor hurt.

Where the merge IS helping is in two places:
(a) Caller time. This a valuable resource to the community and having more than one sport happening at the same time allows us to make the most of it.
(b) DoF duels. Looking at duel count, DoF is our most popular sport at this point. Despite DoS having TWO solo nights, DoF duels are still 2x if we rely on Misty's numbers. There's probably something to be said for giving the most popular sport more time.

I'd also note that the Wednesday merge is a bust and not helping DoM in the slightest. June wasn't too bad, but the 5 Wednesdays in July saw a grand total of 3 DoM duels fought.

One thing I might suggest is to try a different experiment. Rather than merge the least popular sport with the most popular sport, perhaps try Magic and Swords together. Scrap the Wed. night merge (or not, probably doesn't make a difference) and add the DoM option to Saturday night DoS.

Alternatively, bribe Peaches into some sort of DoM only calling. She seems to have somehow made Monday nights the biggest dueling nights we have now.

[Corlanthis]

Something I would like to touch on here.

There's a lot of mentioning that numbers for DoM-specific are down following the merger and that thus, it's a failure in regards to boosting DoM.

But, a significant portion of people are refusing to duel during the combo period because they do not like the merger. And that's perfectly okay, Everyone is free to duel or not duel as they see fit.

But it's somewhat disingenuous to then come to the boards and say "See, duels are down. It's a failure." when you're holding your own activity hostage because the current direction isn't to your liking.

[Jake]

I'd also note that the Wednesday merge is a bust and not helping DoM in the slightest. June wasn't too bad, but the 5 Wednesdays in July saw a grand total of 3 DoM duels fought.

One thing I might suggest is to try a different experiment. Rather than merge the least popular sport with the most popular sport, perhaps try Magic and Swords together. Scrap the Wed. night merge (or not, probably doesn't make a difference) and add the DoM option to Saturday night DoS.

A good suggestion! Thanks Kal.

[Scarlet Knight]

A lot of my own thoughts have already been aired in the thread so far but I'll just touch on my past experiences calling DoF Tuesdays. It was mostly bang or bust, some nights I'd wait two+ hours to call maybe 3 duels. Others, it was a healthy flow all night but I never ever saw the activity that current Tuesdays offer.

However the Isle always had bodies in it. I can't attest to the activity because rarely did I manage to be in both chats simultaneously. I have to agree with the statement a few people have reiterated earlier where less does not = more as far as constricting play potentials with activity gains.

Maybe a few kickstarter promotions can begin playing into DoM's resuscitation like Tuesday Night Loss Forgiveness, where maybe if you clock in 3 DoM fights you can have a loss expunged on the night? There are a lot of ways to try and experiment with it. Maybe if you clock a DoF fight and a DoM fight on consecutive Tuesday shifts you can be eligible for a spirit gem.

I feel like a part of the opposing view (I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, so please just correct me If I'm wrong) to the combo nights are the idea of exclusivity. Magic having its own shift certainly kept the setting rooted in the Isle's lore and premise. Maybe some people can help bring back the mystique of magic dueling by creating some new innovative rings that might just have a few heads turning.

I know I'd be a little jealous if say I saw two people dueling in an anti-gravity chamber for magic . Well I hope some of this helped. It's nice to see this thread really bumping with positive responses.

-- Quick Edit: Another potential ring? The Dread Ship Lollipop off the coast!

[JewellRavenlock]

I think we have to think about how we define "success" as well. Is it only the amount of duels or even challenges a particular sport gets? Does room activity count towards defining "success"? Is success the amount of new players engaged in the sport?

For me, room activity is a big part of success. I've always worked under the impression that the more people in the room, the more people are likely to then come in the room, therefore the more likely duels are to happen because there are more people to duel (maybe this is false Lindsay logic but it makes sense in my brain!).

Has room activity increased with the merge? It certainly seems like it. No offense to DoM, but I'm just not interested in it. But I've been on the Isle for a few Tuesdays this summer whereas in the past I would have been playing in the Inn. I don't even show up in the room just to fist duel either; I come in because there's a variety of people playing in there. If the merge were to end? You'll find Jewell in the Inn again.

[G]

I'd also note that the Wednesday merge is a bust and not helping DoM in the slightest. June wasn't too bad, but the 5 Wednesdays in July saw a grand total of 3 DoM duels fought.

One thing I might suggest is to try a different experiment. Rather than merge the least popular sport with the most popular sport, perhaps try Magic and Swords together. Scrap the Wed. night merge (or not, probably doesn't make a difference) and add the DoM option to Saturday night DoS.

A good suggestion! Thanks Kal.

Thursdays would be the best day for this, unless someone is willing to help out with magic on Saturdays. I don't think the callers there have the experience needed to call magic.

I don't really want to pull the Saturday Night off of the RDI though, so that would be the only thing.

That said, I am willing to do a combo night.

[Shadowlord]

One thing I might suggest is to try a different experiment. Rather than merge the least popular sport with the most popular sport, perhaps try Magic and Swords together. Scrap the Wed. night merge (or not, probably doesn't make a difference) and add the DoM option to Saturday night DoS.

I'd had this thought! Call the night Swords and Sorcery!

Furthermore, I'm going to clarify one thing. My early posts mentioned that some sort of vote on this issue would be fair. And it would. But Lem's explanation of his thought process leading to the decision is highly appreciated, and - now that that's out there - more than good enough for me. And the additional insight into the numbers (never my strong point anyway) makes sense.

I have never boycotted DoM, nor will I ever. I do appreciate transparency in decision-making by the admins/coords, but I do realize they have the sport's best interests at heart. My thanks go out to them for their hard work in keeping this game, this community I love alive.