DoS Reinstatement Discussion

[Kalamere]

The Barons Imp and Nayun have been unaffected by this purge, but will be required to duel for activity if they lose their titles. They will be given 3 weeks after losing their Barony to duel once or be purged from the standings.

Any particular reason the barons were spared this purge?

It hasn't happened in a good long time, but there is precedent for inactivity stripping titles.

~Kal

[Andrea Anderson]

The Barons Imp and Nayun have been unaffected by this purge, but will be required to duel for activity if they lose their titles. They will be given 3 weeks after losing their Barony to duel once or be purged from the standings.

Any particular reason the barons were spared this purge?

It hasn't happened in a good long time, but there is precedent for inactivity stripping titles.

~Kal

Edited to make my answer simpler:

If you are a Baron, you have until Week 13 of this current Winter Cycle to get a duel in. If not, you will be subjected to being stripped before the Warlord Tournament and your Barony placed as prize.

After this cycle. EVERY duelist, from Commoner - Overlord, will be asked to follow the activity rule: One duel every 2 cycles.

[Kalamere]

Thanks Apple, that makes sense. Activity rule hasn't been enforced in so long that the sitting barons deserve a bit of warning that they'll now be subject to it again.

As to the policy change that began the thread:

Starting January 22nd, 2013, it will be policy for anyone requesting reinstatement to log a duel before making the request.

Mind if I inquire as to the reasoning behind this change? I didn't see how the existing rule was damaging anything and I have a small fear that the change could impact something like Madness registrations, so I'm curious to understand the change.

Thanks,
~Kal

[Andrea Anderson]

Thanks Apple, that makes sense. Activity rule hasn't been enforced in so long that the sitting barons deserve a bit of warning that they'll now be subject to it again.

I also wanted to give time to Warlords to gain a duel and be reinstated before the next Warlord Tournament, so that if they were to possibly become a new Baron, that they would have their activity counted with the 1 duel policy.

As to the policy change that began the thread:

Starting January 22nd, 2013, it will be policy for anyone requesting reinstatement to log a duel before making the request.

Mind if I inquire as to the reasoning behind this change? I didn't see how the existing rule was damaging anything and I have a small fear that the change could impact something like Madness registrations, so I'm curious to understand the change.

Thanks,
~Kal

I do not like the idea of Warlords being reinstated without a duel to participate in tournaments like the Warlord Tournament, then be unheard of until the next. I believe there should be some activity in order, even if it is simply 1 duel every two cycles. Around 6 months is more than enough time for a duelist to gain one duel and stay on the standings. Madness is far enough away where if a duelist would like to join they could easily gain that one duel a month or two in advance and have their record returned to them.

In Madness, you do not need to be on the standings to register, and there is a 3-4 week prep time before the competition starts; more than enough time for a duelist to duel once and be reinstated.

I'll be quick on reinstatement. Simply get your duel in, send me a PM with your last duel date, and I'll ( hopefully ) have you back on the Standings by next update.

For those who might not know. The purge does not mean your records are erased, they are simply tucked away till you perform the needed activity and will be awarded back to you on the following standing update. This is to keep the Standings clean and not cluttered with inactive duelists.

[Britania Grey]

It might have been nice to warn people that inactivity was going to be enforced before doing it... Was there a warning given? To me it kind of makes me just want to say screw it and not duel at all whereas if I'd been given warning I would have brought my characters in to duel.

[Kalamere]

I think you make two unwarranted assumptions:

(a) Inactive warlords are actually reading these boards and will know about the change.
I don't suspect this is actually the case. I suspect someone like Slothy is going to wander back around in March looking to join the Madness tournament (either on his own or due to someone reaching out to him) and be somewhat shocked that we're now forcing him to duel once as a commoner before giving him his ranking back.

(b) We can afford to put up barriers to entry.
This is the more important of the two. My fear is that an old retired duelist thinks on a whim one week: "Hey, maybe I'll go mess around in DoS again this weekend for old times sake." so they send off a note to get re-instated for the weekend and instead of that happening they get told: Sorry, go duel fanciless first and then we'll be happy to do it. (Mind you, this especially sucks for those warlords hovering around the 15 WoL mark). You risk them saying screw that and going back to whatever it is they've been doing for the last 6 months+ instead of dueling.

I'll have to search to find the thread again, but we recently had conversations around this where people said if their character hadn't still been listed on the standings after 2,3,4+ cycles w/out dueling they might not have come back one weekend to play around and reminisce. Just writing to the standings keeper was a hassle. Add to that now they have to go in as a commoner and I think you risk them not bothering to come in at all.

I'd like to see full re-instatement made easier and faster, not slower and more painful. Something where if JSV or Falon or Bishop were randomly searching the web on a Friday night and ran across RoH, smiled to themselves that the game still lived and decided to dust off their old characters; they could come straight in as a warlord, maybe with a click of a button if they already had a forum account.

This new policy takes us in exactly the opposite direction and I fear it could do more harm than good.

[Andrea Anderson]

Split from the original announcement. Please continue the discussion here.

[G]

Purges without warning isn't really anything new. I did at least two of them with the last one being on June 14th 2012. It's always irked me that people would get reinstated and then never duel. I can give a few examples. I know I was a lot more lenient about cleaning the standings, but that was due to mostly laziness. Had I regularly enforced the "One cycle" rule that's still listed, this wouldn't be any of issue.

Now that there is someone willing to keep up on enforcing standings rules, I commend and support it.

[Kalamere]

-- started as a post edit, but made a new post instead since the thread changed in the interim --

I don't really agree with your reasoning. I'd prefer to allow a recently returned warlord enter the tournament where they have only a chance to win and, if they do win, give them the benefit of the doubt they'll be active. That said, I think there is a middle ground. Instead of saying a returning duelist must duel once before being re-instated you could instead say that a reinstated warlord must have at least one regular duel before being elligible to enter a warlord tournament. (this would not apply to Madneess, as it is an all ranks tournament).

I do still fail to see where this is coming from though, given that the reinstatement clause has been in the rules many years without creating much incident or complaint, it feels somewhat whimsical to just up and change it now.

[Kalamere]

Had I regularly enforced the "One cycle" rule that's still listed, this wouldn't be any of issue.

I think it would be an issue though G, as your purges did not also come with a rule change saying that those purged must go the first weekend as a commoner before getting their ranking back.

[G]

Had I regularly enforced the "One cycle" rule that's still listed, this wouldn't be any of issue.

I think it would be an issue though G, as your purges did not also come with a rule change saying that those purged must go the first weekend as a commoner before getting their ranking back.

I feel the rule change is okay because what happens more often than not, is that a person will get reinstated just for entering a tournament, and then disappear or, as in most cases with the reinstatement process, not duel at all.

It's not a hard thing to ask someone to get their duel in, then request reinstatement. If it's so difficult for someone to write a letter saying "Hey, reinstate me" they discount the fact that when they ask, the standings keeper then has to go through the process of adding that person to the standings, then sit around and see that person who requested it not duel, then go through the process of removing them from the standings.

Is it so hard to request that duelist show initiative and duel first?

[Kalamere]

I feel the rule change is okay because what happens more often than not, is that a person will get reinstated just for entering a tournament, and then disappear or, as in most cases with the reinstatement process, not duel at all.

Fine, but where is the harm? Isn't it better to at least have them entering and participating for even just one night than it is to not have them around at all?

It's not a hard thing to ask someone to get their duel in, then request reinstatement. If it's so difficult for someone to write a letter saying "Hey, reinstate me" they discount the fact that when they ask, the standings keeper then has to go through the process of adding that person to the standings, then sit around and see that person who requested it not duel, then go through the process of removing them from the standings.

Seriously? I could pull the last ranking and record for any duelist to have popped into DoS since May of 2004 in under a minute. It would take a little bit longer if their last duel was between 1992 and May 2004 due to standings format, but it could still be done pretty quick. I fail to see how these reinstatement requests really put a burden on the standings keeper.

Is it so hard to request that duelist show initiative and duel first?

It may be. Yes. And if it is, it hurts the game as a whole. On the other hand I still struggle to see a real benefit to the change.

Overall interest in the game is on a decline. It seems counter intuitive to put up barriers on those finding renewed interest.

[Rekah Illyriana]

It may be. Yes. And if it is, it hurts the game as a whole. On the other hand I still struggle to see a real benefit to the change.

Overall interest in the game is on a decline. It seems counter intuitive to put up barriers on those finding renewed interest.

How is it a barrier? It's one duel. It's not anyone is saying "You need to duel once a month for a cycle in order to get your rank back."


I fail to see how it's really that off putting. There's four nights to get a duel in. Come in, duel, *bam*- back where you were. ::shrugs::

[G]

Duelists will request reinstatement. Sometimes 1 person with 5 characters at a time. The effort may be minimal to search and find those records, and then put them in the standings. Then, that duelist requesting reinstatement doesn't duel. Any time that was spent on reinstating was now wasted.

This has happened Lots of times. People want to be reinstated, and in some cases I let them sit there for a YEAR to get their duels in as Warlord. They didn't duel. I took them off. And in a couple cases requested reinstatement again after they see that. And STILL didn't duel. The illusionary obstacle wasn't there before and mostly all didn't take advantage of it. There were those who dueled after reinstatement, and there were those who dueled before reinstatement on several occasions.

You may call it a Barrier, but I see it as making the effort to be a part of the dueling community rather than just a name on the standings that you can point to, or only be around for a WLT and then never seen again.

A benefit to the change is less cluttered standings loaded with duelists who haven't dueled in over 6 months to a year. Another benefit is that these duelists who do come back have made an effort and may, just May, actually decide it's worth their time to play more.

Don't just sit and say "Reinstate me" and then never make an effort. And that's -exactly- what's happened on numerous occasions.

[Kalamere]

How is it a barrier? It's one duel. It's not anyone is saying "You need to duel once a month for a cycle in order to get your rank back."

It's one duel plus however long it is until the next standings release. More so though because you're forcing a warlord to duel as a commoner. That is off putting. Especially if your warlord character is, say, 15 WoL. You risk losing the rank during the reinstatement because your fancies have been revoked.

In this thread: http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... highlight= we talked about activity and SoA and a bunch of similar stuff. One quote in regard to standings purges was from Lem:

I stop in for a few DoS duels a year, and there have been a few times where I shouldn't have been on the standings. It's very likely that I wouldn't have dueled at all if I would have needed to take the time to get reinstated.

He's not the only one to feel that way, so I thought it made a pretty good argument for not purging people from the standings, even though I still tend to believe title holders should be held to the activity requirement.