Special Events.

[Seirichi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUMsvrlztNg

Taken from a real forum post on the World of Warcraft site between a Dev and Player.

Seiri. I love you.

One of my old Guild Masters didn't. I linked that video in gchat and got kicked 10 minutes later for being "insensitive".

I mean, so far we can see that people are interested in being given fancies right away.

What? WHO? That's a load of crap. I don't want fancies just given to me. I want to earn them. Sure, it's been fun being able to use them this past month the few times I've had an opportunity to log on and play, but if this suddenly turned into an all the time thing I think I'd be less interested in dueling. Being able to use them hasn't really made any significant difference at all in my rank. I'm also willing to bet that they are not the reason many of the "newcomers" have gained rank either.

I have to agree. When I first came around it was the RP aspects, not the fancies that kept me there. Fancies weren't on my priority list - winning and having fun was. Fancies only mattered later when I wanted to make rank, but I knew that they didn't matter much in sports like DoS when I could easily 5-0 in 5 a Warlord with lucky cuts and solid play after I first used Nayun in the Arena. Fancies, at times, make people predictable. I don't want to seem egotistical using my luck, but I had 5 5-0 shutouts during the first part of the DoS event, though a few were in DoF. I gained these against warlords or commoners who thought I'd spam the 4 fancies that were given to me. What happened? I didn't. I used one as a last ditch move against a warlord to win the duel when a fancy sidestep wasn't the best choice ( he had both cuts and thrust open, so I took my chances ). Another 5-0 had the same ending. Anyone looking at fancies, new or old, can see they aren't that big of a deal in DoS. Tactically, fancies at times can make you predictable. DoF is another ball game, but there's measures to stop fancy usage. Do I like mods in DoF? Oh yes, I love them. Do I love to use them all the time? No. I think I play glasses more than I play my emeralds or other ranks because I LOVE Glass vs Emerald gameplay. Mods get boring, fast. Beating people who have mods? Fun. As. Hell.

If people want fancies just because, they are looking at things wrong. It makes them view fancies as a crutch that's needed to win, and make them more predictable once a person figures them out ( which will be easily if they spam fancy dodge/duck ).

One of my favorite fights was with Salvador vs Seirichi in DoF. I used zero fancies because I really like the players RP style when it comes to the duels. I didn't want the duel to be short, so I didn't care if I won or lost - I just wanted to play with the player and that's what was more important.

Fancies are nice. But don't make them a crutch. Also.. if people want them bad enough, they could kindly ask an Emerald or Mage to mentor them, or join squire tournaments when they are offered.

But mostly? Believe it or not, not everybody likes to duel. The 40 people you saw in the RDI were very likely people who are not even remotely interested in trying the game. You're probably going to ask, "So how do we get them interested?" We don't. Most of these people by now are perfectly aware that dueling exists. They've been exposed to events like the Governor's Cage Match and the Carnival before that. They've seen dueling happening. They just are not interested in participating and there's nothing you can do about it. I know this because I've been told that years ago, we'll say nearly 15, dueling was mentioned to me about how much I should try it, and I just wasn't interested. I didn't have a character who would be interested until recently. This one here. And that's a lot of the reason too. People don't have characters who would realistically duel, and not everybody wants to create one just for the purpose of dueling.

I'm very, very anal about my characters to the point of me retiring titles because of how I view Nayun ( and the reason I made more duel-oriented characters like King and Spell, where their mentality wouldn't allow for this). Though OOCly, it rubbed some older players the wrong way, but I respected my character enough at the time to think "What would *she* do if a magic rock she didn't know talked spoke to her?" and the answer was simple. "Freak the frick out." Would she retire titles again? OOCly I'd prefer not to, but if there's a MAJOR reason it might happen, but I very much doubt it will come up. She can see the benefits of having a Barony and what good it can do ( The GAC wasn't around at the time she held Old Temple ). Plus she likes the current Overlord. Nayun and Candy BFFs 4evr.

My character King, who I made as a Nayun 2.0 since I stopped playing her at the time, won't touch DoM. People have asked, she simply says "Nah. I don't do that Harry Potter sh*t. Does it look like I have a lightning shaped scar on my forehead or somethin'?" Seirichi would rather punch someone than stand in the corner of a ring and fling spells. Nayun? Fights like Mephisto vs Nayun are the reason I come back to the Isle, but not many players play like that. It's usually the whole "I'm going to cast spells and nothing else" thing -- and that's fine. That's how they play, but the lack of physical head to head in the RP is what *I* dislike. But that's just me.

I had to *make* a character and build it around DoM for me to really, truly enjoy it. And that character was Jesse ( Spell ). A good majority of people on RDI might see the duels as this. They can't OOCly see their character playing in the duels, so they don't come. I have a whole list of characters who I'd never use at the duels because it doesn't fit them.

Some might view the duels as just.. the duels. There's a lack of a RP presence on the forums as Harris pointed out. If there seems to be no real Rp going on and it's just people going IC to fight, then what's the point of bringing their characters around?

I didn't need titles to post RP stuff. Jesse being stupid made me want to write. Nayun having a good day at the duels made me want to write. Titles were just an add-on, but not the end all for RPing.

OH god I'm rambling again.

[Rix Favre]

What? WHO? That's a load of crap. I don't want fancies just given to me. I want to earn them. Sure, it's been fun being able to use them this past month the few times I've had an opportunity to log on and play, but if this suddenly turned into an all the time thing I think I'd be less interested in dueling. Being able to use them hasn't really made any significant difference at all in my rank. I'm also willing to bet that they are not the reason many of the "newcomers" have gained rank either.

That was a typo and should have said are not. Which was my point that giving them isn't encouraging new people so other things should be explored.

[Delahada]

What? WHO? That's a load of crap. I don't want fancies just given to me. I want to earn them. Sure, it's been fun being able to use them this past month the few times I've had an opportunity to log on and play, but if this suddenly turned into an all the time thing I think I'd be less interested in dueling. Being able to use them hasn't really made any significant difference at all in my rank. I'm also willing to bet that they are not the reason many of the "newcomers" have gained rank either.

That was a typo and should have said are not. Which was my point that giving them isn't encouraging new people so other things should be explored.

Oh good! Whew. Because yeah... I'm a lot like Seirichi said above. Having fancies makes people predictable, and I tend not to use them all if I have them available, JUST to throw people off. Not all the time, mind you. With this new event I thought I'd give the old "I've got 'em so I'm gonna use 'em" mentality a go. Especially considering that, as the Talon, I got an extra 1 on everybody else. As the Talon and a commoner, that gives me 5 fancies right now. It was fun to use them, but they didn't seem to make much difference on whether or not I won or lost. One match I used them all and I won. Another, I lost. Pretty evenly balanced, really.

Actually, I have people ask me a lot why I don't use my fancies. LOL. Primary example being on Mephisto. I think that's why I've done so well with him. People are expecting me to use my foci, and not using them throws them off. As the holder of the Ring of Klytus (again, I noticed) that gives me an extra as well and... I don't always use it. Plus I've got those gems and had the Spirit Staff. I didn't always use it, haven't used the gems yet, but... You get my point.

Also: I love, love, LOVE Jesse. Her interactions with Mephisto make me giggle. A lot. I really need to get out on Tuesdays again to duel with him. And I'm really quite surprised nobody's challenging. If I could have all the Towers at once on one character, I'd have Mephisto challenging EVERYBODY, because greedy undead red dragons are greedy. XD

[Sylus Kurgen]

RoH and RDI share a setting and a foundation that each player is encouraged to and should make their own play. However, the duels themselves (the matrix based combat) is NOT Free-Form. If Joe Schmo sends in TH, and Billy-Bob-Jimbo Thom sends in CP, Joe still loses that half point regardless how they play it out, it's a forced result. That is the only sticking point I can ever actually see in why more do not come and duel.

There are players who can't see their current characters dueling, and there are players who may not want to make a character just so they can give the duels a try, as a community we can't very well twist arms and draft people. This is why events are so important, the players generating hype to get everyone involved. Unfortunately, I can imagine there is another part of the base who want to participate in fun exciting events, but do not want to do any of the work involved to get them up and running yet still grip when events are held...and they choose not to partake.

I'd also like to point out that most events on RDI are created by the PLAYERS, not the coordinators or mods. Anyone on RoH can create an event. A commoner could make their own tournament and provide, let's say, profile icons to the winner, and maybe a little special title for them. People can RP that out easily. A special title that might not be RoH sanctioned, but people still put in the effort to gain. To that group -- that person really is the title holder. And maybe in a few months they have another tournament to offer a chance for another person to have a title.

If RDI players can make such great events.. Why not the RoH Playerbase trying the same?

A good example: Hydra.

That wasn't sanctioned by RoH. Sylus did his own event if I'm recalling this correctly, and it worked. A player took the initiative to try and make something fun for the community.

Nothing is stopping any player from generating their own RP opportunities on RoH.

Edit: Rakeesh, the new Baron of Old Temple had a tournament a few weeks ago for a Squire. Only 5 people entered. This was well before the Christmas holiday, yet it's another example of a player-created event that didn't get much participation.

It's the players, casual or not, who need to put in the effort if they want to do something. If I made a tournament right now and offered Apples squireship, I can say I don't believe more than 4 or 5 will join.. and most or all of them will be alts of Warlords. If the more casual playerbase is willing to give me a date that might be good for them, I could possibly host the event then - but I would really, really like to see participation.

Getting players involved. Every argument comes back to this. It has been stated repeatedly that players are encouraged to hold their own events, but more do not. Why?

Planning an event takes time and effort, I know and understand those two things are not something many people have in abundance either half or whole.

[Rix Favre]

It's the players, casual or not, who need to put in the effort if they want to do something. If I made a tournament right now and offered Apples squireship, I can say I don't believe more than 4 or 5 will join.. and most or all of them will be alts of Warlords. If the more casual playerbase is willing to give me a date that might be good for them, I could possibly host the event then - but I would really, really like to see participation.

Might I suggest that if you make a tournament, that you don't make it necessarily about the squire part, although still have a prize for that, but do something else? Make another prize for it or a prize for a runner up that would be something that a person who doesn't duel much can use?

Or just mix up the tournament itself. Make it a masquerade so if they're alts, nobody is going to know either way (I saw this idea used recently and loved it and would like to see it again); make it a round robin; make it where characters have to duel with some sort of handicap (blindfolded, one arm behind their back, etc.) so that negates fancies; make it so it's scored differently; make it where two duelers team up against two other duelers and have hit points where the first team to 0 loses.

I think stuff like this could be applied on a regular basis, too. Just make one night a month for special rules dueling.

[Seirichi]

It's the players, casual or not, who need to put in the effort if they want to do something. If I made a tournament right now and offered Apples squireship, I can say I don't believe more than 4 or 5 will join.. and most or all of them will be alts of Warlords. If the more casual playerbase is willing to give me a date that might be good for them, I could possibly host the event then - but I would really, really like to see participation.

Might I suggest that if you make a tournament, that you don't make it necessarily about the squire part, although still have a prize for that, but do something else? Make another prize for it or a prize for a runner up that would be something that a person who doesn't duel much can use?

Or just mix up the tournament itself. Make it a masquerade so if they're alts, nobody is going to know either way; make it a round robin; make it where characters have to duel with some sort of handicap (blindfolded, one arm behind their back, etc.) so that negates fancies; make it so it's scored differently; make it where two duelers team up against two other duelers and have hit points where the first team to 0 loses.

I think stuff like this could be applied on a regular basis, too. Just make one night a month for special rules dueling.

The event held by Rakeesh was something of the sort. Everyone had 7 Hit Points and fought at rank. I believe Gren Blockman was master at arms while the rest of the players were commoners. How we worked past this? I had Hoi Mei ask Kimone Kidd if she wanted to team up, though Norah and Gren did the same and it became about teams trying to take out each other so in the end they could fight each other. Toward the end I knew Hoi Mei would lose, she only had .5 hit points left while Gren and Kimone had around 2. So I stopped caring about winning an cared about my team mate winning. I had Hoi Mei kamikazi slash Norah to take her out, then tried my best to wittle Gren down enough so Kimone could take it. It worked. It became not about the prize, but team work. I liked the concept and it was sad that not many others signed up for the tournament so they could of experienced it as well.

If I did host a tournament? Fancies wouldn't be there. I'd want to see if the players can fight one another on the basic level. This would also give reason ( hopefully ) for more casual players to join without them thinking they'll get mowed down with fancies.. even though fancies don't matter much in DoS, it's mostly the luck factor that does.

I'd have to ask what sort of other prize I can give? My own suggestion of profile icons and maybe a player-made title could be used. I wouldn't mind having the tournament be hosted multiple days to allow people a chance to find their opponent and set a date.

In the end. It's about participation. If players show by maybe responding to this thread that they might enjoy the event as you did, it'd show me there are willing participants.

I do like the masquerade idea though. The Halloween Megacast Lem held was under that rule and it was pretty fun, though I think only 5 or 6 people showed up..

Edit:

------------> Discussion Thread

[Deluthan]

I've seen some new ideas recently that looked terrible right off the bat, so there's no point in trying them. This isn't the type of place where you throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

First, let me start by saying that I did not mean to insinuate that the idea was a failure or that it was actually a “bad” idea (“bad” not being an adequate term in any argument if left undefined), and I apologize if it came across that way. It’s not my place to determine whether or not the idea was a failure. What I was saying, or trying to say, is that, if the idea did not meet the goal that you were expecting or hoping for, then it is not the players’ fault, but rather it was because the idea was faulty in conception, execution, timing, what-have-you. My issue was with the aggressive nature of your post toward the casual player, whereas instead the post should have been more seeking of constructive criticism (your imminent departure as DoS Coordinator notwithstanding): “Hey, you guys are complaining about how difficult it is to build rank, I felt like this idea was a great opportunity to help you with that, why are we not seeing more dueling going on?”

The Casual Duelist has to participate in these events too, to make them successful.

Let’s reword this to say: These events are successful when the casual duelist participates. The casual duelist is not obligated to participate. They may have something better to do. It is the responsibility of whoever is behind the event to create buzz around the event and grab the interest of the casual duelist, so that they move it up their totem pole of “things to do”.

I'm trying to drum some interest in another kind of league. And aside from a few, I haven't seen much in the way of interest to validate trying. I'll still try. So don't pretend that Admin Staff has been just sitting and doing nothing. Cause we haven't.

I wouldn’t say everyone on the admin staff is doing nothing. You and others (e.g. if it weren’t for Matt, I wonder if there would be any headlines at all) have worked very hard, but unfortunately I think a lot of it is just wheel-spinning because you are up against some steep obstacles that you don’t have the power in your current positions to overcome. (I sort of get into this below.)

…

The rest of this post is directed to the general player (well, except for a question to Harris)….

I will always say that RP will come first, and Dueling Second.

Two of the newer most active players we have now in Candy and Seirichi gave their reasoning for coming over. It was generated through RP. …

So then the question becomes what are we as individuals doing to generate RP for ourselves and others that come here? Every single person here should ask themselves that, flat out.

There is a lot of talk here about how important RP is to drawing in new players (I couldn’t agree more, btw). So why does it seem like the vast majority of the ideas/events that are being tried center around dueling or new ranks?

Harris, I know that you have been involved with some of the recent events in the RDI. Would you say you are running just as many non-dueling RP events in RoH? If not, why?

I’m willing to bet that the majority of RoH players who like to RP beyond dueling events and hours do so at the RDI. Why? Because it’s simply a better place to RP. Ignore all dueling events on the RoH website and what’s left? It’s just a carbon copy of the RDI -- message boards, profiles, chat. It offers nothing unique when it comes to pure, duel-free RP. And, the RDI website does a much better job at immersing you in the RP world*.

Why doesn’t RoH have its own non-dueling RP events? Probably because whoever is running it knows that it will get much better turnout in the RDI. Perhaps the RoH should acquiesce to the fact that it is dependent on the RDI, to the extent that maybe the only sensible solution is for the two sites to merge, because the only way for the RoH to sustain itself and thrive is to establish its own RP community.**

I’ll end this post by sharing that when I first found DoS on AOL back in late 1998 (didn’t get into DoF for another year or so), a couple of my favorite characters at the time were two Commoners that were almost always around, even during off hours. One was an old, blind, curmudgeonly fellow named Cor (can’t remember his full name off hand), who, if I remember correctly, was played by a 13-year-old kid in Great Britain, and I think the name of the other was Aerenth Artides(?), something of an eccentric elf. RoH needs these kinds of players, the “supporting” characters, the Jonalyns (yeah, remember her?), the ones that aren’t very good at dueling but willing to stick around long enough to gain rank, or just to antagonize the high-ranking characters, because they find a lot of fun in the pure RP of the place.

*This is a judgment on my part, so I won’t get into details at this time. Feel free to make your own judgment.

**I have several ideas on how to accomplish this, but I have my reasons for not sharing them.

[Harris]

I'm trying to drum some interest in another kind of league. And aside from a few, I haven't seen much in the way of interest to validate trying. I'll still try. So don't pretend that Admin Staff has been just sitting and doing nothing. Cause we haven't.

I wouldn’t say everyone on the admin staff is doing nothing. You and others (e.g. if it weren’t for Matt, I wonder if there would be any headlines at all) have worked very hard, but unfortunately I think a lot of it is just wheel-spinning because you are up against some steep obstacles that you don’t have the power in your current positions to overcome. (I sort of get into this below.)

You didn’t dig too deep into the headlines. If you go back you’ll notice that someone *always* picks up the ball and does the headlines. Before Matt it was me, before me it was Neo, etc, etc, etc. One of the overlooked elements where the slack gets picked up and things get done. So yes, the headlines would get done.

There is a lot of talk here about how important RP is to drawing in new players (I couldn’t agree more, btw). So why does it seem like the vast majority of the ideas/events that are being tried center around dueling or new ranks?

More of a question than anything, but wasn’t that what the Great Helm Tavern was for? The run was during a time I wasn’t here, but from what I’ve seen it was meant to be an RDI-lite. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I gathered that the Great Helm was meant to be a focal point for just RP. And it’s not in use anymore. Someone with more knowledge on the subject can probably clarify why that may be.

I’m willing to bet that the majority of RoH players who like to RP beyond dueling events and hours do so at the RDI. Why? Because it’s simply a better place to RP. Ignore all dueling events on the RoH website and what’s left? It’s just a carbon copy of the RDI -- message boards, profiles, chat. It offers nothing unique when it comes to pure, duel-free RP. And, the RDI website does a much better job at immersing you in the RP world*.

This is the reason why strictly RP events don’t occur on RoH. Because the RDI is a much better place for anything strictly RP, and that's not surprising. What’s *supposed* to make RoH special though is the bonus element of dueling. You can RP *and* duel here. Without that, you do just have the RDI. There has to be a reasonable balance of both in my mind for success. You can’t have just dueling or just RP, you need both for RoH to churn at full speed. It's like an engine that needs two types of fuel to run at full capacity. And to have both you need players willing to do something other than complaining left and right. The dueling element is the responsibility of the staff, absolutely. But the roleplay element? That’s the responsibility of the player. The staff can’t *MAKE* anyone roleplay. They can encourage it. They can create opportunities. But it’s still up to the players to recognize these opportunites and grab them.

Maybe I see things differently than everyone, but all I see on RoH is opportunity. You know what RoH’s version of RDI events is? CHALLENGES. TOURNAMENTS. Remember when those used to draw crowds? There used to be a clause in the rules that challenges couldn’t be held during regular dueling hours.

To answer your question Del, I still see those as events and that’s the type of thing I put my effort into on RoH. Taking my challenges when I issue them or when they come my way and trying to build something around them. Unfortunately very, very few people seem to treat them as such and put forth the same effort for their own challenges.

A challenge is an opportunity for two players to interact and create something. Create hype. Create buzz. Promote their challenge like an event to get people to come out and roleplay. To get people to cheer for or against them. A challenge match isn’t limited to two people showing up, dueling, and one wins. Virtually every challenge has the ability per the rules to span weeks and allow for build up, allow for posting, allow for roleplay before it even happens, so people are more invested in the outcome. But people don’t use this tool. Some people DON’T EVEN SEE IT. And that’s my biggest problem. It's cyclical. What examples do new duelists now have to look toward and emulate when they make rank? Who are their inspirations for *wanting* to create storylines and great challenges?

Every single dueling event has the ability to generate roleplay simply by existing. From Hydra, to the IG War, to Madness. A better question is, why aren't the players using these events as springboards for their RP?

The coordinators and admins have placed the tools in front of people and they simply sit on their hands instead of picking them up and building something. You can duel *AND* RP. You can RP *AND* duel. IF YOU WANT TO. Again, this falls on the players themselves to seize or create their own opportunities, instead of sitting around waiting for something to happen. Meanwhile, opportunity after opportunity passes them by. There are new players who have been here less than a few years that have grabbed this place by the balls and created things, proving that it's entirely possible to do so with enough thoughtfulness, energy, and resolve. And guess what? People have to find that for themselves. The staff can't create that for them either.

I cannot stress enough that this is a fantasy roleplay environment and that the ONLY limit is YOUR imagination. This month marks my 16th year and I can still manage to find new things to do with the same character I've had since LongWangLo helped me in my first duel.

Why doesn’t RoH have its own non-dueling RP events? Probably because whoever is running it knows that it will get much better turnout in the RDI. Perhaps the RoH should acquiesce to the fact that it is dependent on the RDI, to the extent that maybe the only sensible solution is for the two sites to merge, because the only way for the RoH to sustain itself and thrive is to establish its own RP community.**

This isn’t even close to being a new or revolutionary idea. I’ve heard this suggestion for years and agree with it entirely. The two sites don’t need to be separate. But there are unfortunate barriers in the way of a merger. Something as simple as having the Barons joining the GAC had people making wild accusations about RoH and how we play here, so I can only imagine what the concept of a merger would do. Do I still think it should happen in the best interest of both sites though? Absolutely. But I don’t have the power to do anything but voice my opinion on the subject.

[Deluthan]

More of a question than anything, but wasn’t that what the Great Helm Tavern was for? The run was during a time I wasn’t here, but from what I’ve seen it was meant to be an RDI-lite. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I gathered that the Great Helm was meant to be a focal point for just RP. And it’s not in use anymore. Someone with more knowledge on the subject can probably clarify why that may be.

The Great Helm Tavern was 100% my creation. Five years ago I was assistant forum supervisor under Amaltea, and at some point I had what I like to call an epiphany, which I already shared in my last post -- that is, the only way for the RoH to sustain itself and thrive is to establish its own RP community. From that came a vision and a plan -- more of a starter plan because I was still feeling it out, but I knew that the first step would be to establish a setting that would encourage more RP aside from dueling hours and could be a RP hub for all of the sports. I want to be clear that the Great Helm by itself was never meant to be a solution; I knew it would take a multifaceted approach. Thus, once it was completed I moved on to the next phase, which was more ambitious, and quickly learned the ceiling of my creative liberty. So, instead of allowing the frustration of the circumstances infect my personal life at a time when I was expecting my first child and my job was rapidly evolving, I decided to step down so that I could fully engage myself in said personal matters.

Anyway, I took a five-year break, now I’m back, am more enthusiastic in my ability to reach that goal and would love the opportunity to try again, but not holding out much hope at the moment for that. I was happy to see that there was activity on the Great Helm forum in the first couple years, not so much that it’s been inactive the last three, but that’s not unexpected.

That’s the thing: Players feed off the enthusiasm from the admin staff, so you saw the early activity that fed off my enthusiasm (or so I like to think), but with me went all perceivable active support in creating a RP community here, and so the players then fed off that lack of energy with their own.

What’s *supposed* to make RoH special though is the bonus element of dueling. You can RP *and* duel here. Without that, you do just have the RDI. There has to be a reasonable balance of both in my mind for success. You can’t have just dueling or just RP, you need both for RoH to churn at full speed. It's like an engine that needs two types of fuel to run at full capacity. …

You know what RoH’s version of RDI events is? CHALLENGES. TOURNAMENTS.

This still does not explain why you cannot have more non-dueling events in RoH. Obviously you would still have dueling events, but why can’t you have non-dueling events, too? What’s wrong with encouraging players just to come out and RP?

The act of dueling itself is not a great vehicle for RP. Probably my least favorite part of my RPing in RoH is when I’m actually in a duel: Both players are engaged in the game, and you find yourself RPing out the same exchanges over and over again. It’s what happens before and after the duel, the character interactions and development, where the meat of the RP happens. You do not have to have dueling in every RoH event.

The coordinators and admins have placed the tools in front of people and they simply sit on their hands instead of picking them up and building something. …

A better question is, why aren't the players using these events as springboards for their RP?

If this is the philosophy of the admin staff, then it’s no wonder why RoH has been stuck in neutral for so long. How long are you going to wait for the players to respond? Players have no responsibility to play here. Players have no responsibility to play here. Do I need to say it again? Players have no responsibility to play here. I will call B.S. every time someone tries to push responsibility on the players. The only responsibility a player has is to have fun doing whatever it is they have fun doing. If that’s here, great. If that’s somewhere else, then good for them for having fun. This is not a charity house.

The only responsibility a player might have is a personal one, as they would have with anything else they love: To heed the call to protect it, to nurture it, and that’s through calling shifts, hosting events, doing the standings, keeping the place running behind the scenes. It’s the same reason we picked up our first calling shift. And none of us have a right to judge another player on this.

[Ducii]

I didn't read the whole thread, but saw snippets of events so I wanted to add this:

Duci and Barbie had a Battle of the Blondes night, and while it wasn't a seperate dueling event, and it was a night on DM not RoH, it brought in a big crowd of duelers and non-duelers and Barbie's player made icons for it.

Sometimes it just as easy as posting a playable and having your character do a word of mouth or ask one of the gossip rags to post something to get people in. I truthfully have no idea how I got into dueling, but maybe having at least SOME exposure to it can help encourage newcomers to get into it.

ETA:
Stacey makes a great point about a lot of people being aware of the duels and just not participating and there's nothing you can do about it.

[G]

Soooo.. let me get this straight..

On RoH, it's the Admin's responsibility to hold and set up all events, dueling or otherwise, and the Players have no responsibility whatsoever other than to participate? The players, therefore, shouldn't be expected to hold their own events? Is that what I'm reading?

Cause yeah, that's what it looks like is being said.

Let me ask something. I'll use WoW as an example because it's an actively multiplayer game that has some similarities with RoH. It has characters, it has a story base, it has written in story lines.

It also has RP servers. They've provided servers that allow for people to RolePlay how they want with their characters(with restrictions, like, Blood elves can't exactly make friends with humans and hang out in Stormwind, no matter how many times you wanna kill Garrosh.)

Anyway, for these people on the RP servers.. If they play their characters how they want, whose fault is it when those players get bored. Is it Blizzards, for not supplying them enough material(Which they Supply quite a bit of.) Or is it the players, who are there to Role play, and don't take advantage of the settings, game play, and other RPers out there. But when they do, and play with other RPers, and hold events or raids, or whatever. And Blizzard has nothing to do with that other than having created the setting..

Now, granted, WoW is a paid for game, and people are paid to set up locations and stories and everything, and people pay to play it. So there's really not much comparison in that regards. But as far as there being a setting, and things to RP with, and players to RP.. that's up to the PLAYER to take advantage of this. It's not up to BLIZZARD to offer more, special, individual opportunities.

Here, we have the setting, we have the events, we have the locations, and we have some players. The Admin Staff has done plenty to encourage RP. If you're not seeing it, well, sorry, I can't open your eyes any further than you can. I guess what it comes down to is you want the Admins to hold the hand of every individual player and bring them over and make them play.

I get that this isn't just about dueling, and that's fine. Much like the dueling events, you also can't force people to come RP only here. If you've got a magic suggestion as to a way to get them here, I suggest doing so, and not keeping it quiet. Cause all I hear is "We need to do this" and no real suggestions as to how.

Oh, and you don't have to be a member of Admin to do any of that. You want RoH to succeed? Anyone can do it if they've got the ability. As for me, I've pretty much said everything I can say, repeatedly. Ad Nauseum. Since everything I say will be discounted, and the same arguments repeated again, I'm done here. Not going to continue beating a dead horse, banging my head against a brick wall, spinning my tires in the mud, or let my record skip. I'm just gonna play, duel, and perhaps write.

[Harris]

What’s *supposed* to make RoH special though is the bonus element of dueling. You can RP *and* duel here. Without that, you do just have the RDI. There has to be a reasonable balance of both in my mind for success. You can’t have just dueling or just RP, you need both for RoH to churn at full speed. It's like an engine that needs two types of fuel to run at full capacity. …

You know what RoH’s version of RDI events is? CHALLENGES. TOURNAMENTS.

This still does not explain why you cannot have more non-dueling events in RoH. Obviously you would still have dueling events, but why can’t you have non-dueling events, too? What’s wrong with encouraging players just to come out and RP?

You're right. Anyone here can create a non-dueling event and run it. By anyone I mean admins or regular players. Anyone who wants to generate more RP can do this.

The coordinators and admins have placed the tools in front of people and they simply sit on their hands instead of picking them up and building something. …

A better question is, why aren't the players using these events as springboards for their RP?

If this is the philosophy of the admin staff, then it’s no wonder why RoH has been stuck in neutral for so long. How long are you going to wait for the players to respond? Players have no responsibility to play here. Players have no responsibility to play here. Do I need to say it again? Players have no responsibility to play here. I will call B.S. every time someone tries to push responsibility on the players. The only responsibility a player has is to have fun doing whatever it is they have fun doing. If that’s here, great. If that’s somewhere else, then good for them for having fun. This is not a charity house.

The only responsibility a player might have is a personal one, as they would have with anything else they love: To heed the call to protect it, to nurture it, and that’s through calling shifts, hosting events, doing the standings, keeping the place running behind the scenes. It’s the same reason we picked up our first calling shift. And none of us have a right to judge another player on this.

Did you not read my post at all? Where in my post did I ever state that anyone HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PLAY HERE? Please, take a moment to reread my post and find where I said that.

I stated that roleplay is the responsibility of the players, because they're the ones in charge of that element for themselves. The staff can't play their characters. The staff can't force them to come to events. The staff can't force them to build storylines. No admin on this site can force ANYONE to RP. Hell, if someone comes here and doesn't RP their duels out the staff CAN'T MAKE THEM.

The admins can create opportunities that encourage or inspire roleplay however. Just like you did. You created the Great Helm. Then you abandoned it. Is it your fault that it isn't used anymore? Should we blame you for the fact there hasn't been a post there since 2009 like you seem so content to blame the staff for "RoH being stuck in neutral"? Sounds like it from your perspective. You were the admin in charge of it. Did you take any precautions to hand off responsibility to someone else to take it over in your stead? You feel like taking credit for whatever success it had. Do you feel like taking responsibility for it falling off the grid? Or does it instead fall on the players for not finding a use for it?

That's my entire point. Every person is responsible for their own roleplay. I don't blame the staff if I have trouble generating RP. I put on some headphones, turn on some music, and brainstorm something for myself to do. And hey, hopefully for some other people to do too.

If you come to the boards to air a grievance about there not being enough RP and start pointing fingers at the staff for not creating it for you, YOU'RE WRONG. I call B.S. on that. Look at the RDI model. What percentage of those events are player created? The vast majority. And occasionally a staff member will do something special during their shift, or outside it. RoH could use that, certainly. I won't deny that. But the players there still TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR GENERATING THEIR OWN RP. Because that's who it falls on. How many times do I have to beat this dead horse before it's actually fully understood? Either you aren't understanding me or you're simply not trying to.

[Sylus Kurgen]

I never fully understood the complete reasoning behind the Great Helm Tavern. Just that it popped up on the forum one day. Now that Deluthan has stated it was meant to be a non-dueling/RDI-lite, it has me wondering why people would play there when they can just go to the RDI? The Arena is in the RDI's basement, so a trip up stairs is all the logic required.

Granted I am not knowledgeable at all on the Great Helm setting, but part of me would think if it is here on the RoH site it would or should have at least some connection to the duels even if none are held there. Are there monitors that let patrons watch duels like at a sports bar? Is there a ticker somewhere that displays challenge or duel results to someone who may have casual interest in the duels but doesn't want all the clanging, screaming, and blood? What was supposed to be the draw?

As G mentioned, it has been stated ad nauseum that the admin and coordinators work to come up with events and drum up hype, but if players are not interested, there isn't anything they can do about that. This entire topic has cropped up a dozen times over the years. There does need to be more RP on the site and there are ways to tie stories to the duels without dueling actually being a requirement, however if others choose not to partake, then they choose not to. What is the staff to do on that front?

In the transition from AOL to FlashChat, RoH lost players. With TDL out of commission, players stopped coming to RoH. In the last three to four years, the community has lost a number of players due to various reasons and all of them personal to those individuals. It can only be hoped they eventually come back like many do. In the mean time our greatest challenge, as a community, is drawing in new blood. This is a visually oriented age right now with games like WoW, GW2, Gears of War, et.al. While RoH offers the same head to head challenge as any of these games, this one involves reading. That alone is something I see younger people than myself becoming less interested in. Especially because there isnt' a SKIP option to the text. Players cannot just mash on A, X, Start, Select, or Back.

[Delahada]

RoH needs these kinds of players, the “supporting” characters, the Jonalyns (yeah, remember her?), the ones that aren’t very good at dueling but willing to stick around long enough to gain rank, or just to antagonize the high-ranking characters, because they find a lot of fun in the pure RP of the place.

Hey. I'm right here. Unfortunately, real life is bogging down my ability to be online every night to duel. I have responsibilities as a parent that are top priority over my RP leisure activities. This means I can't stay up and play into the wee hours of the morning like I used to. I call it quits at midnight at the latest these days, otherwise I'm going to regret my lack of sufficient sleep when my daughter wakes me up in the mornings.

Secondly, the high-ranking characters worth antagonizing are not around. I see these names on the standings and wonder where the hell they are. Rakeesh showed up for some "casual" dueling for a week or two there. Then he did the warlord tournament. Then he won his barony. Then he did the squire tournament. Then what....?

Where's the conflict of renegade and loyal barons? I know a couple of my favorite villains are having RL issues that prevent them from being online to participate in a lot of these things too. I think that's the biggest problem I'm seeing here in this discussion. So many of you are expecting us to have nothing better to do than to RP and duel, and putting the burden on the shoulders of others instead of taking the initiative yourselves. You want more RP? Bring it. You want more supporting characters? Play them. You want to encourage more non-duelers to give it a try? Get on it. Don't bitch and whine and make the rest of the community feel guilty for not doing these things themselves, though. Some of us just do not have the time. We wish we did, but we just don't.

[Kalamere]

This thread has shifted direction since the last time I added to it, so I'm struggling to figure out where to pick up. I apologize if it comes out less than coherent.

I think we seem to be painting too many people with the same brush. We are mixing together newcomers with casual players. It's a mistake, I think, to look at them all the same way.

Here, we have the setting, we have the events, we have the locations, and we have some players. The Admin Staff has done plenty to encourage RP. If you're not seeing it, well, sorry, I can't open your eyes any further than you can. I guess what it comes down to is you want the Admins to hold the hand of every individual player and bring them over and make them play.

This is a fairly good summary of what I earlier termed as closed minded. Perhaps that wasn't accurate, but I do think it's a poisonous attitude.

How does the new comer, even an established RDI player just new to RoH, know any of what you've done for them in the past? What do they see beyond a sparsely populated chat room and a forum that rarely gets posted to? The latter only if they look at the forums by the way, something that y'all seem to assume everyone who matters does, though I cannot understand where you draw that assumption from.

If there is nothing going on, then why in the world is a new person going to go make it happen themselves? You can't shift the responsibility to them. They're more likely to assume that's just the way things are and go back to whatever game they were playing before.

I don't want to say the staff is 100% responsible and noone else is, don't take me wrong. I think that all of us who are established and who care about the future of this site / this game need to step up and play a part (and, yes, I recognize that many have). But you simply can't blame folks finding their entertainment elsewhere for doing so.

Listen to ideas and complaints and treat them with some modicrum of civility. At least these are people who care enough to voice reasons around their displeasure. Compare to how many people simply never come back or who up and moved on.

Ultimately it's up to the staff (extended staff) to present the type RP, Events, etc. that will bring people out and keep them interested. Blaming them for not being interested isn't going to do any good.

Lets also not sink all our faith into the things that have already been done. Tastes and desires change and so I think we must adapt to the extent we are willing and able. eg: DoS has 9 official tournaments a year. Why do we believe adding a 10th is going to be just the thing people want? We need to continue to do new things, or maybe some times mix up old things.