Special Events.

[Kalamere]

All the special events in the world aren't going to give me any incentive to come deal with people I don't want to deal with, whether or not I have characters that need to gain rank or not.

I'm not entirely sure that there is any solution for that. Is there something you were proposing?

[Jaycy Ashleana]

All the special events in the world aren't going to give me any incentive to come deal with people I don't want to deal with, whether or not I have characters that need to gain rank or not.

I'm not entirely sure that there is any solution for that. Is there something you were proposing?

Nope. Just countering the "people are lazy" sentiment.

[G]

All the special events in the world aren't going to give me any incentive to come deal with people I don't want to deal with, whether or not I have characters that need to gain rank or not.

I'm not entirely sure that there is any solution for that. Is there something you were proposing?

Nope. Just countering the "people are lazy" sentiment.

I'm glad your reason isn't that it's too hard for you to gain rank. This is something I understand.

[Rix Favre]

Looking beyond that, I can play a video game and in 20-30 hours I will have gone through the entire game from start to finish. 20-30 hours is a good investment of time that is usually spread out for about a week, but I've reached the endpoint and the good stuff in that time frame. In the duels, the good stuff is mostly closed off unless you spend about six months to get to warlord or what have you. That is a long time when there are other things that can offer gratification and challenge a lot easier and faster.

And that's a great analogy for a SINGLE PLAYER GAME. Is RoH a single player game? No, it's a PvP or multiplayer game. Are you going to master Halo 4's multiplayer after 20-30 hours? Or are you possibly going to have to put months in playing to get good? Even video games with muliplayer have ranking systems that in many cases only unlock the BEST GEAR for those that put in the time and effort to get up there to the top. That's how the reward system works.

After 20-30 hours of multiplayer you will have earned rewards and unlocked gear. You're still playing the same game as other people, with the same goals. After 5 months here you could be a grand master and you're still locked out from most of the interesting things.

If the problem is that nobody is showing up, then get them to show up. Open up everything to anyone who shows interest in participating. Try it out for a month. What's there to lose? I mean, so far we can see that people are interested in being given fancies right away. So what if they were allowed to challenge after say, 20 duels? They still have to win the challenge. There's no harm in it.

I mean, it's apparent that there's stagnation at the top and there's no new interest being generated. So tackle that problem. But it requires open minds and possibly scrapping a lot of what's in place. Why is it a bad thing to evolve?

[Sylus Kurgen]

Looking beyond that, I can play a video game and in 20-30 hours I will have gone through the entire game from start to finish. 20-30 hours is a good investment of time that is usually spread out for about a week, but I've reached the endpoint and the good stuff in that time frame. In the duels, the good stuff is mostly closed off unless you spend about six months to get to warlord or what have you. That is a long time when there are other things that can offer gratification and challenge a lot easier and faster.

And that's a great analogy for a SINGLE PLAYER GAME. Is RoH a single player game? No, it's a PvP or multiplayer game. Are you going to master Halo 4's multiplayer after 20-30 hours? Or are you possibly going to have to put months in playing to get good? Even video games with muliplayer have ranking systems that in many cases only unlock the BEST GEAR for those that put in the time and effort to get up there to the top. That's how the reward system works.

After 20-30 hours of multiplayer you will have earned rewards and unlocked gear. You're still playing the same game as other people, with the same goals. After 5 months here you could be a grand master and you're still locked out from most of the interesting things.

If the problem is that nobody is showing up, then get them to show up. Open up everything to anyone who shows interest in participating. Try it out for a month. What's there to lose? I mean, so far we can see that people are interested in being given fancies right away. So what if they were allowed to challenge after say, 20 duels? They still have to win the challenge. There's no harm in it.

I mean, it's apparent that there's stagnation at the top and there's no new interest being generated. So tackle that problem. But it requires open minds and possibly scrapping a lot of what's in place. Why is it a bad thing to evolve?

It depends on the kind of evolution being sought I think. Stagnation is the greatest challenge in any game after so long. From my own perspective stagnation is why we have Achievements now, why MADNESS and other tourneys have been held. Hell, part of it was why I started up Hydra and continue to work on how to improve it. Madness is the BIG event of the Winter/Spring, Hydra gave us something for the Summer.

Anyone can state what the problems are with a system, but what about solutions? Every year Madness pits characters of all ranks against one another on a relatively even field, but tournaments that go beyond a single night are a commitment. I am sure the biggest challenge that is seen with Madness is making the commitment for the long haul.

Is the problem with stagnation that there are not many who want to make the commitment required to climb rank?

Is the current issue perhaps an over-saturation of experienced players flooding the rooms with low-level alts?

Are you (this is directed at Rix) suggesting WoL be completely reset from top to bottom? (Letting players keep their achievements and other accolades of course). If everyone is suddenly even tiered and on the same level, would there not still be those who complain about making rank too difficult?

I know that I am not around a great deal, but I have invested time and life into RoH and tried to give back as best I can. Once again there are a lot of statements about what can be fixed, but I want to see MORE ideas in HOW we fix these minor issues, or continue to battle stagnation or saturation of alts.

[Rix Favre]

Is the problem with stagnation that there are not many who want to make the commitment required to climb rank?

Is the current issue perhaps an over-saturation of experienced players flooding the rooms with low-level alts?

Are you (this is directed at Rix) suggesting WoL be completely reset from top to bottom? (Letting players keep their achievements and other accolades of course). If everyone is suddenly even tiered and on the same level, would there not still be those who complain about making rank too difficult?

I know that I am not around a great deal, but I have invested time and life into RoH and tried to give back as best I can. Once again there are a lot of statements about what can be fixed, but I want to see MORE ideas in HOW we fix these minor issues, or continue to battle stagnation or saturation of alts.

I think one issue is that, yes, there are people who cannot, be it difficulty or time restraints or lack of commitment or just not able to keep interest, can't climb ranks. I'm of the mindset that the ranks are good for determining things like fancies, but are outdated for the purposes of having to reach a certain rank before you can unlock another portion of the game: challenges.

I do think there also might be an issue with everyone assuming that each new character is an alt of an experienced one. They might be an alt of an experienced player, but not necessarily an experienced dueler. There is a difference.

I don't think WoL should be reset, but that is an interesting idea to sort of "reboot" the duels. But my particular thoughts are that ranks should be in place to determine the number of modifiers you can use, while challenges would be open to anyone of any rank provided certain criteria is met such as like what is currently in place for warlords: a show of activity and likely other factors that take some time and effort to achieve, but don't require the long grind to reach Warlord first. Things like maybe a certain amount of wins, winning a small tournament or other special event, a ranking system, etc. But the point would be to make it so anyone can come in, start dueling, and have an opportunity to challenge for a barony. Or maybe there should be other incentives. But it's so that people who either aren't good at dueling or don't have the time can still be involved in the RP opportunities that are really right now mostly limited to Warlords and above.

Earlier tonight I saw 40 people in the RDI and 5 people, including 2 callers, on ROH. There are a lot of people out there who aren't choosing to visit ROH. Why is that? Do we need to make it more friendly to people who like to RP more? Is there some sort of stigma on ROH that keeps people from coming here? Why isn't this place appealing to them?

[Seirichi]

I don't think WoL should be reset, but that is an interesting idea to sort of "reboot" the duels. But my particular thoughts are that ranks should be in place to determine the number of modifiers you can use, while challenges would be open to anyone of any rank provided certain criteria is met such as like what is currently in place for warlords: a show of activity and likely other factors that take some time and effort to achieve, but don't require the long grind to reach Warlord first. Things like maybe a certain amount of wins, winning a small tournament or other special event, a ranking system, etc. But the point would be to make it so anyone can come in, start dueling, and have an opportunity to challenge for a barony. Or maybe there should be other incentives. But it's so that people who either aren't good at dueling or don't have the time can still be involved in the RP opportunities that are really right now mostly limited to Warlords and above.

DoM already provides that. Allowing others to challenge for Keeper titles once they gain 2 WoL's and wait 2 weeks for activity. It's offered, but not many casual players are taking advantage of the chance. There are many, many on the current DoM standings that can challenge but they seem to have no interest in doing so. Do you think if this were introduced into DoS that there would be a change from what was shown in DoM?

I'll also note that all four of the current Keepers are challengeable at this time.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Is the problem with stagnation that there are not many who want to make the commitment required to climb rank?

Is the current issue perhaps an over-saturation of experienced players flooding the rooms with low-level alts?

Are you (this is directed at Rix) suggesting WoL be completely reset from top to bottom? (Letting players keep their achievements and other accolades of course). If everyone is suddenly even tiered and on the same level, would there not still be those who complain about making rank too difficult?

I know that I am not around a great deal, but I have invested time and life into RoH and tried to give back as best I can. Once again there are a lot of statements about what can be fixed, but I want to see MORE ideas in HOW we fix these minor issues, or continue to battle stagnation or saturation of alts.

I think one issue is that, yes, there are people who cannot, be it difficulty or time restraints or lack of commitment or just not able to keep interest, can't climb ranks. I'm of the mindset that the ranks are good for determining things like fancies, but are outdated for the purposes of having to reach a certain rank before you can unlock another portion of the game: challenges.

I do think there also might be an issue with everyone assuming that each new character is an alt of an experienced one. They might be an alt of an experienced player, but not necessarily an experienced dueler. There is a difference.

I don't think WoL should be reset, but that is an interesting idea to sort of "reboot" the duels. But my particular thoughts are that ranks should be in place to determine the number of modifiers you can use, while challenges would be open to anyone of any rank provided certain criteria is met such as like what is currently in place for warlords: a show of activity and likely other factors that take some time and effort to achieve, but don't require the long grind to reach Warlord first. Things like maybe a certain amount of wins, winning a small tournament or other special event, a ranking system, etc. But the point would be to make it so anyone can come in, start dueling, and have an opportunity to challenge for a barony. Or maybe there should be other incentives. But it's so that people who either aren't good at dueling or don't have the time can still be involved in the RP opportunities that are really right now mostly limited to Warlords and above.

Earlier tonight I saw 40 people in the RDI and 5 people, including 2 callers, on ROH. There are a lot of people out there who aren't choosing to visit ROH. Why is that? Do we need to make it more friendly to people who like to RP more? Is there some sort of stigma on ROH that keeps people from coming here? Why isn't this place appealing to them?

So what solutions do you propose?

Open up the challenge pool to any duelist who meets the criteria? Like WoL? The last thing any of the duels need are revolving door titles. The easier a title is to obtain, the lower its value as a game item. That is gaming 101. The easier something is to get the less valuable it is in the long term.

The benefits that come with gaining rank and title should benefit either the game, or the play entered to get there. Casual players are great, but the active players who are dueling every night to every other night are the life-blood to our player base. Those players are the ones that keep it all going. And it is that crowd which we need to draw more of.

Part of the issue might very well be a change in gaming generations. Games today are generally easy to play, even provide tutorials. I remember games like Techmo's Deception, Joust, Techmo Bowl, and other 8bit games that were harder than hell.

The biggest element to RoH is the direct head to head nature of our game. The requirement to actually out think your opponent is what makes or breaks it. It isn't like other games where one can be the worst player at the game, but they follow a build archetype that becomes untouchable.

DoM already provides that. Allowing others to challenge for Keeper titles once they gain 2 WoL's and wait 2 weeks for activity. It's offered, but not many casual players are taking advantage of the chance. There are many, many on the current DoM standings that can challenge but they seem to have no interest in doing so. Do you think if this were introduced into DoS that there would be a change from what was shown in DoM?

I would want to test that out actually. While the changes to DoM under Neo have greatly reduced the parity among players, I would venture to guess there might still be a stigma to DoM in regards to the other 2 sports that is as old as RoH itself. I play in all 3 and have never seen this, but know the different arguments as most others.

[Seirichi]

Part of the issue might very well be a change in gaming generations. Games today are generally easy to play, even provide tutorials. I remember games like Techmo's Deception, Joust, Techmo Bowl, and other 8bit games that were harder than hell.

That's what things have become. The me, now, faster generation. Street Fighter 3: Third Strike. Super Street Fighter 4: Arcade Edition. Tekken series, Dead or Alive Series, Soul Caliber, Melty Blood, Blazblue, Guilty Gear, etc. These are all PVP games that are created for head to head fighting between two players -- offline or online. It doesn't take 30 or so hours to master, it takes months or even years since there could constantly be new tricks to learn. Does this make the games less popular? Far from it. Their player base love it, and that difficulty is what brings the hype and makes or breaks players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVmc5ZepdVs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7VYIFgWAZc

Casuals still play it, but don't expect to walk into EVO and be on the same level as the players who are more serious about it. That's how I feel about titles. When I first came to the duels Aya was the Overlord. I saw the character and thought to myself, "Jeez. I want to rank up so I can do that." not "I should be able to do that right now." The same thing about DoF when I wanted Seirichi to take PathFinder from Harris, which is officially my reason for coming to these duels in the first place. I had that goal in mind and was set to do it. Titles shouldn't be handed out easily, they should be what people strive for.

On the subject of more events. I think everyone would love to see more events.. but the problem is? Participation. G brought up points on how he tried to do a team dueling tournament and there was a lack of participation. Sylus made Hydra and it seemed most teams were made with alts or others who weren't going to fight, while Beat Down was full of very active duelists and easily won. There needs to be participation for these events to benefit. It's not the events or the makers of the events fault that others are not taking advantage of it.

There could be a league that doesn't use current standings. Everyone is the same rank and they schedule fights, meet up and battle it out for a few months to see which team is best. How many would participate in that right now?

[Candy Hart]

Earlier tonight I saw 40 people in the RDI and 5 people, including 2 callers, on ROH. There are a lot of people out there who aren't choosing to visit ROH. Why is that? Do we need to make it more friendly to people who like to RP more? Is there some sort of stigma on ROH that keeps people from coming here? Why isn't this place appealing to them?

Sort of skipping over all other thoughts as it's late and I'm tired yet cannot manage to sleep. This comment caught me enough to go to my lap top to write a response.

While RoH and RDI essentially exist in the same realm, the people that part take in what is offered on one or both sites vary. There was this whole long thing some time ago when someone wrote a post on their personal website that more or less consisted of a "them" vs "us" mentality in the difference of RP and then resulted in a lot of debate/discussions on the merits of such thoughts.

My familiarity with RP stems from AOL chatrooms that were not duels or RDI (or guilds or anything like that). It was very much Free Form RP wherein I communicated OOC with someone to make sure that I didn't step on any toes. Sometime after leaving AOL and having a hankering for creativity again... I managed to find RDI. I had zero knowledge of the duel. It was through RPing Candy on RDI in 2008 that I was lured to the duels by Capistrano, Geko and Kazzy. Because they went to the Outback and invited Candy along. It was the RP that went along with the dueling that got me to duel in the first place.... and when I came back and needed a distraction from RDI RP stuff, it was the memory of my enjoyment of how the duels worked into my RP that made me bring Candy (and myself) back to RoH.


Why are there more people on RDI than RoH?

RDI is RP and not duel focused. I think that the main player base there (aside from those that are active on both sites) either doesn't have an interest in what they might perceive as a hindrance to completely "free form" rp (part of what was debated) or hasn't been given the opportunity/awareness to try it out.

But there has been efforts (like the OL and Barons becoming part of the GAC and Dueling Events/Activities being held and promoted on RDI) to allow for giving RDIers a go.

And the people in charge can do this event or that event or make alterations here and there to try to keep things fun.... but I think the best way to get new RDI duelers active on RoH is to have people familiar to RoH active on RDI.

It wasn't titles or ranks that got me to RoH. It was Candy's interaction with other characters. The dueling just added to it.

But it's so that people who either aren't good at dueling or don't have the time can still be involved in the RP opportunities that are really right now mostly limited to Warlords and above.

I really don't follow this. Limited RP opportunities because not just anyone can try for a title? :/

[Seirichi]

Earlier tonight I saw 40 people in the RDI and 5 people, including 2 callers, on ROH. There are a lot of people out there who aren't choosing to visit ROH. Why is that? Do we need to make it more friendly to people who like to RP more? Is there some sort of stigma on ROH that keeps people from coming here? Why isn't this place appealing to them?

I'd also like to point out that most events on RDI are created by the PLAYERS, not the coordinators or mods. Anyone on RoH can create an event. A commoner could make their own tournament and provide, let's say, profile icons to the winner, and maybe a little special title for them. People can RP that out easily. A special title that might not be RoH sanctioned, but people still put in the effort to gain. To that group -- that person really is the title holder. And maybe in a few months they have another tournament to offer a chance for another person to have a title.

If RDI players can make such great events.. Why not the RoH Playerbase trying the same?

A good example: Hydra.

That wasn't sanctioned by RoH. Sylus did his own event if I'm recalling this correctly, and it worked. A player took the initiative to try and make something fun for the community.

Nothing is stopping any player from generating their own RP opportunities on RoH.

Edit: Rakeesh, the new Baron of Old Temple had a tournament a few weeks ago for a Squire. Only 5 people entered. This was well before the Christmas holiday, yet it's another example of a player-created event that didn't get much participation.

It's the players, casual or not, who need to put in the effort if they want to do something. If I made a tournament right now and offered Apples squireship, I can say I don't believe more than 4 or 5 will join.. and most or all of them will be alts of Warlords. If the more casual playerbase is willing to give me a date that might be good for them, I could possibly host the event then - but I would really, really like to see participation.

[Eregor]

Nothing is stopping any player from generating their own RP opportunities on RoH.

They don't even have to be strictly duel-based, either. For an example of what I mean, look at the whole Jesse-possessed-by-Fire storyline that gripped the DoM side of things for a while. Speaking purely for myself, that got my attention and kept me coming back to the Twilight Isle. While I was there, I dueled, and I think that's about when Eregor's rank hit its zenith (so far, anyway ).

[Harris]

But it's so that people who either aren't good at dueling or don't have the time can still be involved in the RP opportunities that are really right now mostly limited to Warlords and above.

The limit on RP opportunities is the imagination. Period. If you (general) think the only time you can RP something is if you have a title, you're doing it wrong. This is free form RP. You can create ANYTHING you want to create. You don't have to sit back and rely on making Warlord before you can dig into roleplay or generate a storyline. Look at the RDI. What do they use as a starting point for stories? They don't have titles over there or anything other than SHEER RP. And they make the most of it, which I can honestly say 90 percent of the people on RoH don't do. RoH has an added advantage of a focal point or springboard for RP, which is dueling. If you don't see an RP opportunity staring you in the face to take advantage of then grab a sheet of paper and a pen and brainstorm something to create on your own.

Earlier tonight I saw 40 people in the RDI and 5 people, including 2 callers, on ROH. There are a lot of people out there who aren't choosing to visit ROH. Why is that? Do we need to make it more friendly to people who like to RP more? Is there some sort of stigma on ROH that keeps people from coming here? Why isn't this place appealing to them?

Two of the newer most active players we have now in Candy and Seirichi gave their reasoning for coming over. It was generated through RP. When RDIers come here and look at the boards, what do they see? Nothing. No activity. Little to no writing or storylines. Because the players here instead spend their time in threads like these, complaining about what they can't do instead of doing what they can. The RDI players make the events. They don't rely on the staff to lead them around by the hand. They do it themselves and you get events like 7 days of Winterfest out of it, which incorporated characters from every corner of the RDI *and* RoH. Even the RDI players are making strides to involve RoH into roleplay with the GAC element that ANYONE can attend regardless of rank or standing in DoS.

So then the question becomes what are we as individuals doing to generate RP for ourselves and others that come here? Every single person here should ask themselves that, flat out.

[Seirichi]

Two of the newer most active players we have now in Candy and Seirichi gave their reasoning for coming over. It was generated through RP. When RDIers come here and look at the boards, what do they see? Nothing. No activity. Little to no writing or storylines. Because the players here instead spend their time in threads like these, complaining about what they can't do instead of doing what they can.

This. So much this. When I first came to RoH these boards were like a ghost town, and in a way still are. I didn't know of any storylines or what people were doing unless I dug into old, old, old posts. I would read stories about Aya in her barony dojo with her two students, or old posts from Harris. I've tried to stay active on the boards because I *want* them to appear active. It's why I post on Seirichi IC doing this and that. At times, it might seem more like heckling, but it's simply me attempting to start some sort of spark of competitive RP.

I'd really like to see more activity from the players, because it only seems like the coordinators and a few individuals are trying to keep things alive.

They don't even have to be strictly duel-based, either. For an example of what I mean, look at the whole Jesse-possessed-by-Fire storyline that gripped the DoM side of things for a while. Speaking purely for myself, that got my attention and kept me coming back to the Twilight Isle. While I was there, I dueled, and I think that's about when Eregor's rank hit its zenith (so far, anyway ).

Thank you. I'm glad you liked the event.

[Delahada]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUMsvrlztNg

Taken from a real forum post on the World of Warcraft site between a Dev and Player.

Seiri. I love you.

I mean, so far we can see that people are interested in being given fancies right away.

What? WHO? That's a load of crap. I don't want fancies just given to me. I want to earn them. Sure, it's been fun being able to use them this past month the few times I've had an opportunity to log on and play, but if this suddenly turned into an all the time thing I think I'd be less interested in dueling. Being able to use them hasn't really made any significant difference at all in my rank. I'm also willing to bet that they are not the reason many of the "newcomers" have gained rank either.

Earlier tonight I saw 40 people in the RDI and 5 people, including 2 callers, on ROH. There are a lot of people out there who aren't choosing to visit ROH. Why is that? Do we need to make it more friendly to people who like to RP more? Is there some sort of stigma on ROH that keeps people from coming here? Why isn't this place appealing to them?

My guess is that this thread had a lot to do with it. We're pointing fingers indirectly. People are seeing themselves in the scenarios we're presenting. They're feeling guilty. And when people feel negatively about a thing, they generally avoid it.

Additionally, Christmas. A lot of people are probably recovering from the holidays, all the parties and family get-togethers and other such obligations. Likely they want to wind down and relax and not want to put much thought into anything. New Year's is coming up, so they probably want to relax in preparation for that, too.

But mostly? Believe it or not, not everybody likes to duel. The 40 people you saw in the RDI were very likely people who are not even remotely interested in trying the game. You're probably going to ask, "So how do we get them interested?" We don't. Most of these people by now are perfectly aware that dueling exists. They've been exposed to events like the Governor's Cage Match and the Carnival before that. They've seen dueling happening. They just are not interested in participating and there's nothing you can do about it. I know this because I've been told that years ago, we'll say nearly 15, dueling was mentioned to me about how much I should try it, and I just wasn't interested. I didn't have a character who would be interested until recently. This one here. And that's a lot of the reason too. People don't have characters who would realistically duel, and not everybody wants to create one just for the purpose of dueling.

Sal here, for instance, will only duel in Swords and Fists. He's not a magic user/slinger, so it's not realistic to have him dueling in Magic. Sure, they implemented the wants and things for non magic users to use, but long before all that I had already written it into his character that such things backfire around him. He doesn't touch them. It's just not his style. He doesn't duel for the fun of it with pool noodles and love taps like many duelists these days do. If he's going to fight you, you better expect to walk away bloody and bruised, because that's the way he is. But I always wanted to duel in Magic. I just had the hardest time coming up with a character who would. Then I created Mephisto. Though honestly he's an old offline character that I adapted to fit online play and the duels.

I don't think the right to challenge is much of an incentive either, to be honest. Again this goes back to staying true to one's character. Aagin, I'll use this character as an example. Salvador has no ambition to become a baron. If I ever miraculously get to 15 WoL and keep gaining more and more, I can't really see myself challenging. Though I, the player, think it would be AWESOME to be a baron, I can't think of any reason why my character would challenge. He did once, a couple years back, when Teagan gave him the Overlord grant, but there were reasons. He didn't have a reason until Jaycy, his baron, as he was her squire at the time, gave him a reason. He used the grant to challenge her, which created all kinds of controversy, and lost. That was that. He had no desire to hold her barony, so it was no sweat off his back. As things are now I don't see anyone he'd have any interest in challenging if I somehow managed to jump rank overnight from commoner to warlord, or if the need to be a warlord were entirely removed from the equation. He has nothing against any of the current barons. The properties don't appeal to him at all. And he wouldn't ever take on a squire either. So...

It wasn't titles or ranks that got me to RoH. It was Candy's interaction with other characters.

The same is true for me. The thread Candy speaks about was one I remember participating in, and a suggestion I made (on an alt) was that IC interaction was the most likely way to encourage interest and participation. The next thing I know, some duelists pop into the RDI and start talking about dueling, around Sal, who loves to fight. This caught his interest. He asked questions. The next night dueling happened I was there with him and gained 5 WoL in a single night. That Never Happened Again, but the thrill of that success has kept me going.