Glass vs Emerald: Something of a Study

[Jake]

What the carryover ADV succeeds in doing:
- Make more sense in-character: If you earn an ADV, a referee wouldn't take your advantage away because you couldn't convert it immediately while you and your opponent were fumbling about, because you earned the thing; instead, they would take it away because your opponent legitimately stole it from you with a successful move.

I'm not really sure I see the logic in "stealing" an adv. There isn't an analog for this in any sport that I can think of. So the IC logic doesn't make sense to me.

I can see the logic of the mechanic in a game sense. But that doesn't change my impression of what the Adv is.

[Jake]

One of the challenges of the carry-over Adv is that our current caller assistant tool on RoH won't be able to track the floating Adv. Which means the caller will have to track it separately.

We already have this issue with the Focused spells in DoM with the latest rule changes. And we don't have an ETA on when that can be fixed.

Making this sort of change for DoF, even if the general consensus is that it's a worthwhile modification, will mean the job of calling DoF duels will get a little more challenging.

Just a note to explain what the technical issue is.

[Jake]

What this does is promote offense among Glasses, because you want real points. As you move up in rank, you get mods and start using more defensive moves because those will now get you real points and you still have all of that offense coming at you. Then, as you move further up in rank and work in even more defenses, you encounter a third level of strategy, i.e. feints, which are immune to defenses (unless you count Flip as a defense, which I don't).

I think this is a pretty fair summation of the basic tiers of DoF dueling.

Newcomers are largely easy to spot. They experiment with everything as they try to learn what works and what doesn't. For this reason, they tend to be easy to beat, because they don't yet know what the strong moves are.

Early duelers learn what the strong moves are (like Jab), and stick close to them. They're still unsure about how to use the defenses effectively and are pretty much using brute force to win/fight the duel.

Duelers gaining experience learn the value of moves like Dodge and begin incorporating those (sparingly) into their duels. This necessitates more effort to beat, because their range of moves is expanding.

Duelers who master the concept of the defenses and advance to the upper ranks discover a new challenge. The Feint. Which is useless against the brute forcers, but useful against the the people leaning too much on Fancy Dodge.

(As a note, I see Feints mostly come out during the Emerald vs. Emerald tournies and challenges. They tend to be infrequent in the regular duels.)

This layered complexity is one of the things I like best about DoF.

[Jake]

While I know the Fancy/Feint system has been changed three times over the years, I have to wonder if the matrix has undergone any changes?

Yes. I'd have to dig through old records, but I can probably lay hands on the various mods over the years.

The first matrix was pretty much a mirror of DoS but with different names. And initially referred to as "HtHC" by RDI Panthr.

Approximately 4 months later, DoF got the matrix that holds all of the current moves, but some of the interactions were different and the Jab and LegSweep were even stronger than they are now.

In the last iteration of changes, a couple of minor things were tweaked that greatly (if subtly) increased the usefulness of several moves, like Duck, SnapKick, JumpKick, UpperCut, etc.

I will see if I can find links or copies of some of that material.
ETA: here's some of it...
http://duelingzone.org/roh/dof/archive/ ... -11-15.txt
http://duelingzone.org/roh/dof/archive/ ... -03-01.TXT
http://duelingzone.org/roh/dof/archive/ ... mental.txt
http://duelingzone.org/roh/dof/archive/ ... -09-27.TXT

And for those interested... http://www.badside.org/dof/standings.php?19931128, which has some of the standings from the first couple of years of DoF that I recently discovered in an old back-up.

***

As a historical note, while some of the moves are still "weak" (like UpperCut, Hook, etc...) this is actually what prompted my initially devising the alternate Slugfest scoring rules. To give more usefulness to the weaker attacks. (ETA at one time, some years ago [while I was still regularly calling], these alternate rules were briefly allowed for regular duels, although I think Matt has forgotten this.)

[Goldglo]

Slugfest being used in regular dueling has long since slipped my memory!

Aside from the feint and fancy scoring changes, the only matrix change I remember offhand is when Duck was altered to beat Spinkick (Spinkick used to beat all defenses, including Duck).

--Matt

[Jake]

Slugfest being used in regular dueling has long since slipped my memory!

I figured.

Aside from the feint and fancy scoring changes, the only matrix change I remember offhand is when Duck was altered to beat Spinkick (Spinkick used to beat all defenses, including Duck).

That adjustment to Duck was the last "matrix" change, but it was a subtly powerful one. It significantly improved the usefulness of several moves.

[Seirichi]

Slugfest being used in regular dueling has long since slipped my memory!

I figured.

So I can request a Slugfest duel during normal DoF hours?

[Jake]

Slugfest being used in regular dueling has long since slipped my memory!

I figured.

So I can request a Slugfest duel during normal DoF hours?

That would get my vote.

Seriously tho'... It does give an incentive to use Hook, UpperCut, and Spinkick, regardless of whether the person has any mods to use, and it avoids actually tweaking the matrix. And, it does sort of make sense for things like Hook and UpperCut to hit "harder" than the quicker Jab.

[Seirichi]

I tested the ADV carry over again, this time with Candy. Results below.

Me ( Glass ) / Candy ( Emerald )

Jab / Jab - 1-1
Leap / Sweep - +1-1 ADV Me
Dodge / Jab - 2-1 Me
Leap / Fancy Dodge - 2-1 Me
Sweep / Feint jab - 2-1 Me
Jab / Duck - 2-+1 ADV Candy
Dodge / Jab - +2-1 ADV Me
Armblock / Leap - +2-1 ADV Me
Dodge / Fancy Dodge - +2-1 ADV Me
Jab / Sweep - 3-1 Me
Sweep / Chop - 4-1 Me
Dodge / Sweep - 4-2 Me
Sweep / Feint Jab - 4-2 Me
Jumpkick / Fancy Dodge - 4-3 Me
Sweep / Fancy Duck - 5-3 Me

15 rounds. The style isn't bad, but the fault I see in it is prolonging fights. Out of three fights - all of them have been beyond 10 rounds. If my use of the carryover ADV is wrong, please tell me. I'd be willing to test this style out more in the Lobby during off-hours of dueling if others would like. But what I've seen in the three fights I've had -- it makes things feel real sluggish.

[Seirichi]

One of the challenges of the carry-over Adv is that our current caller assistant tool on RoH won't be able to track the floating Adv. Which means the caller will have to track it separately.

We already have this issue with the Focused spells in DoM with the latest rule changes. And we don't have an ETA on when that can be fixed.

Making this sort of change for DoF, even if the general consensus is that it's a worthwhile modification, will mean the job of calling DoF duels will get a little more challenging.

Just a note to explain what the technical issue is.

I can see this too. Also, if it does prolong fights it'd cause callers to become more busy during dueling hours, forcing them to call more multiple fights. At times when I'm calling while subbing during busy fight nights, I could have more than 4 fights going on, and then there's others still looking to duel. If the carry-over ADV causes longer DoF fights, that means others will either - 1: Have to wait for duels, 2: Makes the caller have to busy themselves even more by adding more duels to their already busy list.

[Seirichi]

Also if the carry over ADV was something used in the IFL, why not keep it at that? It'd give it - it's own little flair for the players who participate. Though it's no longer being done.. I wouldn't mind trying to host it and keep track of stuff.

[Seirichi]

Another Duel using the ADV Carry. This time against Velhelmi.

Velhelmi ( Glass ) Me ( Emerald )
Jab / Fancy Dodge - 1 Me
Snapkick / Feint Jumpkick - 1 Me
Jab / Feint Flip - 1 Me
Leap / Jab - 2 Me
Sweep / Sweep - 1-3 Me
Dodge / Jab - +1-3 Me
Leap / Dodge - +1-3 Me
Legblock / Feint Flip - +1-3 Me
Jab / Dodge - 1-+3 Me
Dodge / Leap - 1-+3 Me
Flip / Jab - 2-3 Me
Sweep / Feint Jumpkick - 2-3 Me
Jab / Jab - 3-4 Me
Sweep / Jumpkick - 3-4 Me
Leap / Feint Flip - 3-5 Me

15 rounds that would of turned into a tie if the Feint Flip hadn't worked. That's 4 duels, each of them 13+ Rounds. The ADV carry is an interesting system, but I still stand by the feeling of sluggishness compared to the system as it is now.

[Candy Hart]

I wouldn't mind trying again. Doing it last night was sort of like learning a new component to the matrix. I'm wondering if, once duelist have a better hand on it if the length will be more varied (like current duels) or run to 15 (resulting in ties, since in DoF you have to hit 5 to win).

[Goldglo]

Something that may be worth looking at (though it won't always be apples-to-apples as far as Glass vs. Emerald or no mods vs. lots of mods) are the IFL links I posted earlier in the thread. Those may show, possibly, more of a real-world scenario as far as duel-length goes.

--Matt

[Velhelmi Torvald]

Another Duel using the ADV Carry. This time against Velhelmi.

Velhelmi ( Glass ) Me ( Emerald )
Jab / Fancy Dodge - 1 Me
Snapkick / Feint Jumpkick - 1 Me
Jab / Feint Flip - 1 Me
Leap / Jab - 2 Me
Sweep / Sweep - 1-3 Me
Dodge / Jab - +1-3 Me
Leap / Dodge - +1-3 Me
Legblock / Feint Flip - +1-3 Me
Jab / Dodge - 1-+3 Me
Dodge / Leap - 1-+3 Me
Flip / Jab - 2-3 Me
Sweep / Feint Jumpkick - 2-3 Me
Jab / Jab - 3-4 Me
Sweep / Jumpkick - 3-4 Me
Leap / Feint Flip - 3-5 Me

15 rounds that would of turned into a tie if the Feint Flip hadn't worked. That's 4 duels, each of them 13+ Rounds. The ADV carry is an interesting system, but I still stand by the feeling of sluggishness compared to the system as it is now.

First, thanks for responding everyone, I'll finish what I have for you later today. My internet cut out last night, I think there was road work because it was gone for several hours and cut without warning while practice dueling.

As for the duel, these are my observations and opinions...

First: It was practice. I was trying things for the sake of trying them, not trying desperately to win. Hence, Leg Block (my first ever attempt). I wouldn't consider anything in here conclusive.

Second: It felt like a different duel from the beginning. Why? Five feints. No one ever has used five feints on me before. Back up, I'd be surprised to find a duel I've been in with two feints used against me, maybe only in practice.

Third: It also felt like a different duel mostly because I felt like my opponent was tentative and unsure about what was going to happen next. It's the first time I felt like Seirichi'player was uncomfortable. That was the vibe I got, whether he was or not only he can say. Maybe he too was testing things out? For example: "10. Jab / Dodge - 1-+3 Me" Why not Fancy here? Fancy becomes 1-4 and the duel is near an end. In fact, there are two Dodges that are not Fancied.

Whether or not there was discomfort, I believe the sluggishness I think may stem from not having a mastered strategy and testing out the new defensive mechanisms intentionally. Had this been a "for keeps" duel, I doubt very much it would look much like this.

Fourth:

Sweep / Sweep - 1-3 Me
Dodge / Jab - +1-3 Me
Leap / Dodge - +1-3 Me
Legblock / Feint Flip - +1-3 Me
Jab / Dodge - 1-+3 Me
Dodge / Leap - 1-+3 Me

This sequence in the duel, I was testing out the carry over effect, not trying to win the game. I tried Leap/Leg Block to see if this was a viable strategy with the carry over effect, try to catch a Leg Sweep and it got me thinking that maybe in this new system it isn't the crappy, almost worthless move I say it is. Jury is still out on that.

Fifth: Opponent didn't try any Fancy beyond the first round. 15 rounds, 1 Fancy, 5 Feint with only two of the mods landing. I have a feeling that this usage of his mods isn't the most efficient and a lot of the duel was spent scared of defense I had no intention of using. I'm also the first real Glass he's faced. So take that into account as well when looking over the practice results. My strategy will not be the same as Harris or Candy because they're dueling as Glass in name only. (consider me tier 3 of Jake's DoF breakdown).

Sixth:

When I landed my advantage, I had no idea what I should do with it. Since they carry over with two offensive misses I didn't know if it was a good idea to switch to offense in that situation and defaulted to defense. Do they carry over with an offensive hit? It would be neat to carry the ADV until either you convert, your opponent lands on you, there's an offensive trade ala Jab/Jab. It may ease the idea of sluggishness mentioned elsewhere in this post by easing its fragility. Your opponent would have to work to negate it and by holding the ADV, place the pressure on them to take it rather than on the holding it to convert. That would feel more like a real ADVANTAGE.

How cool would it be to be able to have a sequence like this...

1. Dodge - Jab 0+-0
2. Jab - Leg Sweep 1+-0
3. Leg Sweep - Dodge 2+-0
4. Dodge - Jab 3-0

and a sequence like...

1. Dodge - Jab 0+-0
2. Jab - Leg Sweep 1+-0
3. Leg Sweep - Dodge 2+-0
4. Dodge - Leg Sweep 2-1

That would be neat. If you want to talk mind games and unpredictability, talk to me about this. I will say that the version we used last night based off the Iron Fist League was better than the one I initially suggested.

Seventh: One thing I become acutely aware of was, even though I went into the duel expecting Feints to be used, I had no idea how to attack them or which feints to expect. As an experienced bottom feeder, I wonder if seeing Feints at a "young age" will be a boon. I do not know. But I like the idea of seeing both mods as a real Glass on paper.

Eighth: One thing that was brought up during the duel was the possibility of future complaints being brought up about Feints being used in the same vein as Fancies and someone complaining about that in the future in the same vein as the Wild Irish Rover post. I cannot say if there's any validity to this fear or not, mostly because I cannot claim to know how players would adapt to the altered system and because I don't yet understand Feints in action.

Ninth: I have a feeling that the next time I have a practice duel, I'm not going to see five feints and I'm more likely to see five fancies.

Tenth: Caution is in order in placing too much emphasis in any of these practice duels. Testing out new strategies generally starts with being tentative. I would rather make one observation after testing 100 duels than making ten observations about 1 duel.

Perhaps we should start a new thread and place practice duels there? Keep the discussion here and the raw data over there?

I had fun with the new style and I wish the net didn't cut out so that I could have tried a second one. I'll respond to many of the other posts later today and apologize that I wasn't able to do so yesterday. I have them saved in the word processor so it shouldn't take very long to finish them up.