Question in Scoring Descrepency

[Velhelmi Torvald]

DoS and DoF have different rules.

I don't see the evidence of this. It is entirely possible that I'm just missing it, but I see nothing in the DoF Game Guide or DoF Rules of Rank that speaks at all to how a duel is won. As such, I think one has to fall back to the generic "The Duels" page under Setting with the language that:

I've twice tried to find where the DoF 5 point must rule exists. The first after the DoF fight because I had not seen a 4-3 in 15 "tie" before. The fact that Lacey went for a ruling and changed the outcome from win to tie led me to believe that it was a universal rule change that had not yet been updated. I should have asked about the rule then, but didn't. The result of my assumption was last night's "loss" which is when I went back a second time and looked over everything more closely.

It's why I asked for clarification and mentioned that I can't find the variation of the rule concerning what is a win or a loss in the game guides. If both you and I can't find it, the variation either does not exist and, unless it is first tweaked and made uniform, needs to added or is poorly located and should be unburied.

Yeah that's before me. This is one of those things that only comes up once every other year or so and Matt and I usually have to discuss it to make sure we have it right, and then there is occasionally talk about dealing with it which is shortly after forgotten until the next time it happens.

I don't offhand know the logic behind having differences in the scoring, especially since the feint rules have changed several times since then. I donno that there would be a lot of resistance if we wanted to change this to be uniform across the board starting with the next cycle. At that point the only question would be the is 4-3+ a win or a tie? Either side has an arguments for it.

I would like to have all three sports have a uniform win/loss method. I can see no good reason not to, other than to just be different. There are enough differences in the moves, mods and matrices.

If 4-3 = win, than 4-3+ to me is a 4-3 win within the context of advantages not being scores. All an advantage means is that you can score a point the following round with any successful hit. There's no advantage to having an adv. in the 15th round if there's no 16th round.

For my part, I dislike the 'one-point-lead-is-a-win-after-fifteen-rounds-eve n-if-you-don't-have-5-points' method. I've always thought that you should have to score a minimum of 5 points in order to have a chance to win a duel. In my mind, I always ask myself 'why give someone a win for a 3-2 or 4-3 score when they haven't yet reached the mimimum requirement for winning a duel, which is 5 points'?

For regulation dueling, no 5 points = no win, regardless of whether it's after the 6th, 11th, or 15th round. That makes sense to me and it's the method I personally prefer.

--Matt

In this regard, I don't care if it's one way of the other. What I don't want to do is to have to not only remember the matrices for three different sports, the scoring systems for three different sports (Point, Half Point, Advantage, Point and a Half), the three F mods (Focuses add a half point point to any spell, Fancy turns advantage or .5 into one point but don't alter offense and Feints are weird defensive killers)... but also variations on what constitutes being a win. Remembering all the game mechanisms while trying to role play is enough. If I'm way behind like I was last night but I can creep out a tie, I'd like to know if that's an option. If my only choice is to go for broke, it changes how I think.

Last night...
13. Duck - Thrust 2.5-4.5

At this point, the match is almost lost and cannot be won. My thought is that my opponent will either Cut to try to trade to win, or Parry if they fear Thrust. How I can reach tie changes this next move. I was thinking 4.5-2.5 = tie so I chose Low Cut as it was the best way I could think to get there. Result was Low Cut - Low Cut and I was happy even though I had unknowingly sealed my own loss.

If 4.5-2.5 = loss, then my options probably would probably be to choose between Thrust and Slash because I am not worried about Side Step/Stop-Hit/Disengage (which is why Cut is safer in above example as it'll hit these if I'm wrong about them) and I must have a full point to survive. The last thing I would want is a tie round because then round 15 would be a formality.

The difference between knowing whether or not I *must* score in order to tie is crucial and the next time I'm in this situation, the last thing I want ringing in the back of my head is, "Wait, which sport is this?"

Overall, I like the idea of a 5 Point Must system and I think it has merit. On the surface, I would see it encouraging more aggressive play because you don't want to see a 3-2 in 14, but also giving players a new strategy for longer duels in which someone finds themselves in the situation I did. Heck, you could even make an achievement...

Perfect Tie
- Tie a match 4.5-0 in 15 rounds

What would be worse? Being Perfected or being Perfect Tie'd? I think that this would be a very, very hard thing to get. Almost impossible. For example, if your opponent Thrusts five times, it would not be possible for this to happen. I think all three games have enough possible moves to make "turtling" something that can be punished. So, I don't know. A discussion on it can't hurt.

At this juncture, that's the exception. It's already been stated that the DoS and DoM rules award a win to a full point lead. Apparently the confusion is with DoF. So the better question is, what if anything about the DoF system requires the difference from the other two sports, outside of the sentiment of simply not liking it? If that's all that's holding standardizing the sports back I don't really see that as enough of a reason to warrant it. It's a minor tweak that will alleviate any future confusion about ties, on the side of callers and duelists. That to me is a boon worthwhile.

I agree with the overall sentiment. Whether it's 5-must or Full Point Lead, keeping it the same across all three is a benefit. My suggestion would be to change DoF to 4-3 = win to unify the sports. Afterwards, have a separate discussion on whether or not 4-3 should result in a tie or a win, then change or remain the rule of all three. To me, the first is more important than the second.

[PrlUnicorn]

Despite not being noted in the DoS Game guide, it probably should be, the 15 round and 1 point or more ahead win rule has been that way since at least 1997 when I first did some time as a queuekeeper.

I've twice tried to find where the DoF 5 point must rule exists. The first after the DoF fight because I had not seen a 4-3 in 15 "tie" before. The fact that Lacey went for a ruling and changed the outcome from win to tie led me to believe that it was a universal rule change that had not yet been updated. I should have asked about the rule then, but didn't. The result of my assumption was last night's "loss" which is when I went back a second time and looked over everything more closely.

When successful your move earns you either a point or a half-point. In Duel of Fists, you earn "advantages" instead of half-points, which when scored in two consecutive rounds convert into a point. It takes a minimum of five points with a one-point lead to win. During regular hours, duels are limited to 15 rounds, after which a player with a one-point lead or greater is given the win, otherwise the duel ends as a tie. During special events, there is no round limit; duels will go on as long as they have to in order to determine a winner.

http://www.ringsofhonor.org/community/theduels.php

That notation is a big ambiguous in its wording:
During regular hours, duels are limited to 15 rounds, after which a player with a one-point lead or greater is given the win, otherwise the duel ends as a tie.

It does clearly specify:
In Duel of Fists, you earn "advantages" instead of half-points, which when scored in two consecutive rounds convert into a point. It takes a minimum of five points with a one-point lead to win.

So, given what's already been posted and discussed this seems to mean that the other two sports used the other ruling of 15 rounds and a minimum of a one point lead to win. Is there any reason those simple additions can't be specifically noted in Getting Started and the Game Guide pages for each sport?