Why do you use modifiers against lower ranks?

[Velhelmi Torvald]

Why do you use modifiers against low ranks?

I don’t agree with Harris’ assessment that because a duelist has earned them it is their right to do so. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should and I’ll refer to a statement Neo’s player once made to me in a similar discussion. A veteran duelist once asked Neo “which win is more important? Padding your record or the new name in the room having fun and coming back for more”? From my end of things, I’ve come to side with the latter. Those who are all ready established don’t have to go out of their way to make a duel fun, but neither do we need to do everything to completely curb stomp a name we’ve never seen before.

It’s one thing to be true to your character, it’s another thing to use over-kill just to get a single win on an all ready disadvantaged character. By the fourth round of a duel anyone whose been dueling competitively at least a year can tell between a truly new duelist and an alt.

If it’s a name I’ve never seen before, I treat it as a blank slate, a truly new person. If I lose, I lose. It’s just a game and I can get it back another time.

"Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should..."

Good sir, I'll thank you not to speak for me on my behalf. When you say "we" you include me, and I do not include myself in your statement as I oppose it. I have given my detailed explanation as to why dueling against modifiers is beneficial. I'll refer you to my post at the end of the fourth page.

If you want to play in the manner you describe, then by all means do so. I'll support it. You lose my support the moment you begin to suggest how I should play my game. As far as I know, there is not yet evidence to suggest that new players are leaving because they're getting destroyed mercilessly by vets in a culturally xenophobic manner. By turning it into a moral issue when we're talking about modifiers in a game that people have been overcoming for literally 20 years irritates me to no end.

You suggest that everyone should "duel down" to the rank of their opponent to make it more fun for the lower rank, thereby ignoring their own self interests in fighting the duel in the first place. To take your argument to it's logical conclusion, the next step would be that a player, in order to attract new players, if they have a WoL cushion, that they should lose to make it more fun for the new body. If that's the case, then we should have a designated dueler to play the part of a punching bag so that new players can rack up wins easily.

These ideas are all bad. At some point, you have to learn the game or else the game is not worth playing. Anticipation, how to counteract second guessing, handling defeat, learning from your mistakes, not dwelling on past mistakes, picking yourself up and coming back after an 0-4 night... these are the sorts of encouragements I want to strive towards teaching the new players, not watered down wins that mean nothing more than playing a cheap psychological trick.

"::lets new guy win:: See? You won already!"

I want to encourage the new players by... playing with them! Get them into the role play, help them interpret the moves, getting their characters going, giving them an opponent, explaining the Matrix, and making sure they enjoy the entirety of the experience and not just some random watered down bullshit version of the game. Those attributes are what I wish to give to the new players. They will be more fulfilled, I will be more fulfilled.

When I was cutting my teeth, the first move I started to become "aware" of due to Fancies was the Dodge. I had to ask myself, how do I combat this? I had to learn which moves beat Dodge. What are the pitfalls of using these moves and my opponent doesn't Dodge, how often will I be hit? Do these moves lose to commonly used moves? I had to think. An extra WoL or two would mean nothing without the help of understanding the matrix and the differences in how the ranks use them.

Once that understanding is reached, then that player will be ready to fight the higher ranks for even higher ranks when you achieve your own high rank. But it must be earned. It cannot be given. Think of the proverb of the difference in giving someone a fish and giving someone a fishing pole. Give them the tools to succeed, not the benefits of others work.

Finally: The game is a competition. People lose. Not everyone gets to be Overlord.

If there is a cultural problem involving the merciless beatings of newcomers in a xenophobic manner, then I would consider the proposal. My feelings are that even then, it would be a problem with the players, not a problem with the system. However, in my time back, I've seen nothing to suggest that players are being malicious. They're doing their best to win, and for that, I applaud them all.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Why do you use modifiers against low ranks?

I don’t agree with Harris’ assessment that because a duelist has earned them it is their right to do so. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should and I’ll refer to a statement Neo’s player once made to me in a similar discussion. A veteran duelist once asked Neo “which win is more important? Padding your record or the new name in the room having fun and coming back for more”? From my end of things, I’ve come to side with the latter. Those who are all ready established don’t have to go out of their way to make a duel fun, but neither do we need to do everything to completely curb stomp a name we’ve never seen before.

It’s one thing to be true to your character, it’s another thing to use over-kill just to get a single win on an all ready disadvantaged character. By the fourth round of a duel anyone whose been dueling competitively at least a year can tell between a truly new duelist and an alt.

If it’s a name I’ve never seen before, I treat it as a blank slate, a truly new person. If I lose, I lose. It’s just a game and I can get it back another time.

"Just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should..."

Good sir, I'll thank you not to speak for me on my behalf. When you say "we" you include me, and I do not include myself in your statement as I oppose it. I have given my detailed explanation as to why dueling against modifiers is beneficial. I'll refer you to my post at the end of the fourth page.

If you want to play in the manner you describe, then by all means do so. I'll support it. You lose my support the moment you begin to suggest how I should play my game. As far as I know, there is not yet evidence to suggest that new players are leaving because they're getting destroyed mercilessly by vets in a culturally xenophobic manner. By turning it into a moral issue when we're talking about modifiers in a game that people have been overcoming for literally 20 years irritates me to no end.

You suggest that everyone should "duel down" to the rank of their opponent to make it more fun for the lower rank, thereby ignoring their own self interests in fighting the duel in the first place. To take your argument to it's logical conclusion, the next step would be that a player, in order to attract new players, if they have a WoL cushion, that they should lose to make it more fun for the new body. If that's the case, then we should have a designated dueler to play the part of a punching bag so that new players can rack up wins easily.

These ideas are all bad. At some point, you have to learn the game or else the game is not worth playing. Anticipation, how to counteract second guessing, handling defeat, learning from your mistakes, not dwelling on past mistakes, picking yourself up and coming back after an 0-4 night... these are the sorts of encouragements I want to strive towards teaching the new players, not watered down wins that mean nothing more than playing a cheap psychological trick.

"::lets new guy win:: See? You won already!"

I want to encourage the new players by... playing with them! Get them into the role play, help them interpret the moves, getting their characters going, giving them an opponent, explaining the Matrix, and making sure they enjoy the entirety of the experience and not just some random watered down **** version of the game. Those attributes are what I wish to give to the new players. They will be more fulfilled, I will be more fulfilled.

When I was cutting my teeth, the first move I started to become "aware" of due to Fancies was the Dodge. I had to ask myself, how do I combat this? I had to learn which moves beat Dodge. What are the pitfalls of using these moves and my opponent doesn't Dodge, how often will I be hit? Do these moves lose to commonly used moves? I had to think. An extra WoL or two would mean nothing without the help of understanding the matrix and the differences in how the ranks use them.

Once that understanding is reached, then that player will be ready to fight the higher ranks for even higher ranks when you achieve your own high rank. But it must be earned. It cannot be given. Think of the proverb of the difference in giving someone a fish and giving someone a fishing pole. Give them the tools to succeed, not the benefits of others work.

Finally: The game is a competition. People lose. Not everyone gets to be Overlord.

If there is a cultural problem involving the merciless beatings of newcomers in a xenophobic manner, then I would consider the proposal. My feelings are that even then, it would be a problem with the players, not a problem with the system. However, in my time back, I've seen nothing to suggest that players are being malicious. They're doing their best to win, and for that, I applaud them all.

Those who have modifiers have earned them, true, it is their CHOICE to use them as they see fit. However I'll refer back to my example. Which win is more important? You (generic) modding a rankless duelist into oblivion, or tempering your strategy to eliminate the possibility of completely discouraging that player from ever coming back?

At no point did I say let the rankless name win. However you (generic) shoudn't need to use every stratagem in the book to do so. There are games I stopped playing because I couldn't get any momentum from vets over-using specials to the point where the game stopped being enjoyable. It is the responsibility of everyone to keep the duels fun and enjoyable both from a spectator stand point and competition.

This is a competition based game and with that we have good sportsmanship...and poor. Which you (generic) choose to employ is up to the individual. Do you give your opponent a sporting chance? Or do you use every trick in the book?

[Harris]

My point about modifiers and how upper ranks use them was that nobody should be judged on how they use what they've earned.

Much like Matt, I have had a blanket policy of fighting at rank that I've gone in and out of over the years depending upon how I'm playing my character. I have more than enough WoL at this point where taking a hit from a Glass isn't a huge deal. But if I ever decide to seek 200 WoL, guess what? I'll club whoever accepts a fight with me with however many mods I need to win. Does that make me a poor sport all of a sudden?

The idea that losing is so discouraging that people quit absolutely baffles me. To put it bluntly I have absolutely no sympathy in regard to that or anyone that claims it. Because losing should be the expectation for any type of competition you embark upon when you first start. I didn't go 15-0 to make Emerald, I lost, a lot. It was a learning and growing experience and guess what? I stuck around and got better without complaint. The fact is, losing occurs at EVERY LEVEL. I still lose. I still put forth the effort to learn from those losses when they happen. If losing at Glass discourages people, what happens if they get to Jade and lose it? What happens when they make Emerald and their first few challenges fail?

People shouldn't *allow* losing to discourage them, especially in the face of all the resources we have now to help them overcome that hump and all the people who have made it clear in this thread that they're absolutely willing to help. If you (general you) get discouraged and quit BEFORE exhausting all the resources to get better, that's not the fault of the players here or the system in place.

[Carley]

"::lets new guy win:: See? You won already!"

I want to encourage the new players by... playing with them! Get them into the role play, help them interpret the moves, getting their characters going, giving them an opponent, explaining the Matrix, and making sure they enjoy the entirety of the experience and not just some random watered down **** version of the game. Those attributes are what I wish to give to the new players. They will be more fulfilled, I will be more fulfilled.

Amen.

As mentioned before as well, some players find it insulting when a higher rank won't use their mods. They feel babied and coddled. I wouldn't say you're being a "good" sport by refraining from using mods against them.

Back when I played WoW, I had to do a lot of arena and PvP to earn good gear. I had to lose a lot too, to people who already had that good gear. I wouldn't demand my opponents wear lesser gear against me, nor would I strip my own character of their gear if I noticed that I was doing much better against my opponent. Competition nets rewards for wins, and people are free to use their rewards. If someone is super discouraged from a loss the onus is on them. Not anyone else.

[Sylus Kurgen]

But, thinking about it, maybe it would be worthwhile to set up a voluntary survey with a question like "what was most challenging/frustrating to you getting started" along with other questions like "what helped you the most?" I'll ping some of the other admin-type folks and see what they think about setting up some sort of survey like that.

Still reading the entire thread, quite a bit to process, now that I've gone back a bit.

I"ll retrace my steps.


I'm not defending Irish or that after losing 2 duels he was right in seeking to change the entire game. There has been enough of that crap. However this situation in general has cropped up a hundred times over.

Losing shouldn't discourage anyone like Harris said, however I've been dueling close to ten years and when I'm in the room under an alt there's a sense of feeling unwelcome when I RP or duel like I'm truly new. And I've spoken to a few others who picked up the same sense. That's a people issue. Something harder to address as no one knows who's feeling that way unless they speak up. Rix brought this aspect up as well.

It's evenings like that where I fully support completely localizing material for new players under the Getting Started tab. Harris' guide should be under the Getting Started drop down menu or in the FAQ. Part of it might also be time to update facets of the user interface to aid in navigation for new players.

As to the discussion of modifiers that started this thread, there are multiple ways to look at it and they're all personal. Those who have them, have earned the right to use them how they deem best. I won't disagree with that. Some don't want their opponent to hold back at all because they're not holding back themselves. Others are learning the system and desire their opponent to show some temperance.

The veterans are not going to know that desire unless the new duelist extends the olive branch. However there isn't anything that says the veteran duelist cannot offer the same courtesy in return. It's one thing to use modifiers, however it can be another to use them in turning a duel into a scene from Friday the 13th and make the duel a complete slaughter.

Just a matter of temperance.

This in itself ties in with what I quoted from Jake. None of us can know what is going on in the other persons head. There isn't a way to quantify that they feel discouraged or are having a negative experience with the dueling venue unless they speak up or have a means of letting that feeling be known.

Duelist X comes around, and it's their first time dueling. They're not getting a lot of positive reception from the room and feeling discouraged, so they get into a duel and that person mod bombs them. Now they're even less likely to return OR speak up.

[Candy Hart]

My question/complaint, why use modifiers against low/no rank duelers? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of trying to get people to join/re-join?

Please bare with me while I try my best to fully convey and summarize my thoughts and feelings about every turn this topic has taken.

My answer to this exact question: No. It does not defeat the purpose of trying to get people to join/re-join. That has been made clear by many people who are joining/re-joining and do not see this as an issue because they're still coming around.

This conversation shouldn't even be about mods and how people use them. As I see it, any concerns about the use of mods or communication stems from the desire to help new people feel welcome and how do give them the resources they need to succeed.

What if people aren't feeling welcomed?

I'm sorry. People are people. And the emotions of others are beyond our control. I am not saying this to brush off the feelings of others. I am not saying that I don't care how people feel. What I am saying is that no matter what we do (dueling, rp, real life) there will be situations wherein we might not feel welcomed or might make someone else feel that way without meaning to. I have felt as though I was not welcomed, this very year after being a part of the community over a year. Even after being a caller and having positive feedback, I felt this way. Sometimes it is just a mood we get into. Sometimes it's just a reaction we might have to the actions of others. As it has been said--again and again and again--communication is key to this. Both ways. Because I cannot do anything about someone's feelings that are completely unknown to me. I cannot expect people to do anything about the way I'm feeling without telling them.

That being said, I know there are people that do make the effort to make people feel welcome and included be it IC or OOC. If you think their is an issue of people not feeling welcomed than my statement to you is this: What are you doing about it? Last year I felt like there was an issue in the availability of callers. I became a caller. If you do not think the efforts that are being put in are enough, I suggest focusing on what you can do to help and not telling others how they should change their actions/behavior. If you are someone that doesn't feel welcome and you are reading this? PM me. I will talk to you. I will help you in any way I can. And if I cannot help you, I will find someone that can. I'm pretty sure others will echo this sentiment.

How do we give new players the resources they need to succeed?

Aside from what's already being done? Because I feel like this thread sort borders on ignoring those that -are- making the effort to do this.

Update the "Getting Started" section to provide for a better centralized location of materials and how to use them. Like the standings and how to know who might use a mod against you--the resources at the dueling zone --and directing people to the player's soapbox "A place for players to ask questions, learn how to play, suggest or propose ideas concerning the site or games."--and Harris' dueling guide.

[Charles Blackstone]

Well read this over and have given it a thought. Let me give it the point of view of a new player in the duels.

Being fancied, feinted, or focused SUCKS.

but it is a part of the game and something you get used to quite quickly. When i first joined i had no idea what i was doing, but thanks to Sarah i caught on to the point that i could do it and have fun with it all.

I believe someone had already posted my records but its obvious that i duel alot and lose alot. But it is not due only to being fancied or feinted or focused to death. Rather that is the least of my worries when dueling. I worry mainly about trying to understand the Matrices and counter my opponents. It is the failure to do so that has caused many losses.


Now with the initial question "why do you use modifiers against lower ranks" Personally i don't but thats because i remember when i only had Renas focus to duel a much higher rank, and got focused everytime. Yeah it sucked. But life went on.

So what am i trying to say here. Basically im saying that dueling is just a game, and like any other game, it should be fun for everyone. So maybe that means don't focus that mage bolt against the new guy. And then maybe it means focus the foul fog the next round. In all ways it should be fun for all.


For me that means even if i lose i still have fun at it.


so yeah theres my opinion, although not clearly stated nor worded.


P.S. Thanks for the compliments guys

[Kruger]

I'd like to take a little time to address my own thoughts because as we all know...I am The Anvil. I am perhaps one person to whom none would wish to complain about modifiers being used on low ranks. I have won, and lost duels where modifiers have been waged against me. I have won and lost duels where I have used what meager modifiers I have achieved.

Timing is everything. A feint jab from Matt doesn't stand up to a jab from The Anvil. (please note I left all specials off repetition of title) A fancy Jab from Candy still gets trumped by a flip from...you guessed it The Anvil. Before crowing stop using mods...why not start studying the oponent?

Personally I like to fight the duelists who are mod heavy....it is that much sweeter when you win. I would say thanks for reading but I am sure the obnoxiousness of my first title drove a few readers away. *snickers*

[BardGallant]

People directly e-mailed some home made ones to me, ones I like better than those on Dueling Zone (sorry, Jake)!

If you've got prettier versions than I currently have on DZ, I'd be happy to post them. Most of the ones there are ones provided to me from members of the community.

You got it! Sent you an e-mail.

Actually, I duel a LOT of characters I don't know. The most recent example, should naming people directly be necessary, is Charles Blackstone. He's fairly new. To the best of my knowledge, he hasn't been the least bit discouraged from dueling. In fact, he's shown nothing but an insatiable hunger for it, to the point of showing up just about every freaking night for every freaking sport. And he'll duel everybody, veteran or not. I highly doubt the majority has been hitting him with IMs asking him if it's okay to use their fancies/feints/foci on him. I know I haven't. He doesn't get upset. He just keeps trying.

I agree with you 100% on Charles. He was the duelist I didn't mention by name in my first post. If he keeps doing what he's doing, he'll be great in the future. I clobbered him in both of my first two duels against him, mostly because his understanding of the game seemed elementary at best, but tonight he got the better of me. I had the fight in control until I made a big mistake and went completely against my instincts and against the move that would have won the game (its bad enough that I put it in bold in my records). However, when Charles took the advantage, he took over, didn't look back and won the match.

Look at his records. It scary how much he loses. 0-8-2 in Swords, 0-5 in Fists, 3-10 in Magic. Yet he keeps coming back and you know what else? Not only is he improving, you can tell that he's having fun the entire time he's playing. Many veteran players here could learn from his enthusiasm.

I didn't want to mention him by name because I didn't want to sound like I was picking on the guy even though I really like having him around. So if you're reading this Charles, keep doing what you're doing and you'll eventually surpass most of the people here.

^-- What he said. Not picking on Charles. Wanted to use you as a good example, man. I totally agree. Love the enthusiasm and the dedication to keep coming back no matter how hard you keep getting knocked down. Glad you're having fun!

Going back to my sarcastic comments on participation levels, though, I must say... Last night was amazing. It's been forever since I've done my job because of life issues. I get so disappointed when the room count is low and I maybe get in one match called. Last night, however, the room was hopping, and I was nonstop duel after duel and loving it! Even if a couple times I had some screw-ups. And the tool was being cranky for some people. So I want to thank ALL OF YOU who came out to duel, and hope you keep coming back for more and more and more.

[Velhelmi Torvald]

Losing shouldn't discourage anyone like Harris said, however I've been dueling close to ten years and when I'm in the room under an alt there's a sense of feeling unwelcome when I RP or duel like I'm truly new. And I've spoken to a few others who picked up the same sense. That's a people issue. Something harder to address as no one knows who's feeling that way unless they speak up. Rix brought this aspect up as well.

That's odd, because I have had the complete opposite experience. Both of my characters, when they were new and no one knew who I was, they were welcomed in. So, from my personal experience, this was a complete non-issue for me. This is only my third week back and I have not had anything that I would say would of lead me to believe that this is happening right now. Mind you, I'm not saying that it's not, but I've had no personal instances of xenophobia.

I have noticed cliquish behaviour, and some annoying apathy, but, that's not the focus of our conversation.

It's evenings like that where I fully support completely localizing material for new players under the Getting Started tab. Harris' guide should be under the Getting Started drop down menu or in the FAQ. Part of it might also be time to update facets of the user interface to aid in navigation for new players.

I think these are excellent ideas. I would make the suggestion of having the "Getting Started" tab a different color, for example, yellow or orange, so that it stands out. It can be part of the same color palate, but brighter. This way not only would you have all of the material needed in one place, as it should be, but being a bright beacon of light guiding new players towards it. If you would teach me how, I would offer my help in doing this.

As to the discussion of modifiers that started this thread, there are multiple ways to look at it and they're all personal. Those who have them, have earned the right to use them how they deem best. I won't disagree with that. Some don't want their opponent to hold back at all because they're not holding back themselves. Others are learning the system and desire their opponent to show some temperance.

The veterans are not going to know that desire unless the new duelist extends the olive branch. However there isn't anything that says the veteran duelist cannot offer the same courtesy in return. It's one thing to use modifiers, however it can be another to use them in turning a duel into a scene from Friday the 13th and make the duel a complete slaughter.

The biggest difference between you and I concerning this matter, and correct me if I am wrong or plug in your own terminology, is I believe that you are speaking from the perspective of a member of a community and I am speaking as a participant of a game.

Is dueling a competition? In my mind, yes it is. What is the point of competing? To win. If I am to duel, I want to be able to beat all of my opponents 5-0 in 5 rounds if I can. If I want to challenge myself, I'll go for 5.5-0 in 6 rounds. Or 5-0 in 10 rounds using only defensive moves. I want to beat them into the ground, drink their blood and plant their head on a stake as a warning to my enemies.

My best single night of dueling was winning 5-0 in 5, winning 5-0 in 6, 5-3 in 13, and 4-0 in 4, where my opponent intentionally forfeited in order to avoid losing by being perfected (I also wrote about this in my bragging post).

I want to do anything I can to help keep new players, but if we're playing for keeps, I have my own self-interest at hand and I'm going to duel like the maniac I am. I may suck now, but I'm confident that I wont for long and when my skill gets up, I plan to wreck havoc on the standings. So long that I am able to maintain this pace with my schedule, this is the direction I will take. Making a statement like that is bad for me competitively, because it puts a target on my back, but it's worthwhile communally because it forces me to show that I'm not another flake to pop up in here, spout his mouth off and fail to deliver on future promises.

More importantly, I am proud of this stance, the manner in which I compete and none shall hear me apologizing for it. I want to fight people like me in the rings every single night. People who are here to duel and duel often, with great passion and vigor for their game of choice and to take pride in their accomplishments. I want them to challenge with conviction and defend their titles with zeal. I want to see the love for this great game and not feel that they need to tiptoe to their titles. I want to read of people bragging about their best dueling nights, to have them recap an excellent comeback, and to get angry when they do something stupid and lose. I want to feel the competitive spirit of my opponents in myself.

I am full of piss and vinegar and I mean to share it with all that will have me. I have 41 duels in fewer than three weeks and I dare any to claim they have more. I also dare anyone to keep up with me.

People who lose and get up and try again are merely defeated.
People who lose and blame their losses on anything but themselves are losers.

Charles is not a loser. Kruger is not a loser. They are shining examples of the best this sport has to offer. They could be the G'nort and Tass of tomorrow and even if they are not, they are the kind of players I want. Those who will duel often, enjoy it, brush themselves off after a loss, smile when showing off their missing teeth, reanimating their missing limbs stitching closed their sliced opened bodies and framing the x-rays of their broken bones.

I want them to one day sit upon a throne and declare to the wide with of the masses below, "I used to be a nobody like you, but now I am the King."

Anyone expecting or pressuring players to hold off using their modifiers, I find it distasteful to the point of feeling insulted because I feel it's an embargo on their ability to compete as they should. To duel to win, each duel, every time.

This is how I feel as a competitor. If you think I'm being overly dramatic, you'd be right because I'm making it abundantly clear that not only am I not buying what you're selling, but I think the sale is more expensive than the market price.




However, I do think that your intentions are noble, if a bit misguided. I am willing to work with you to create a solution, should you be willing to work with me. If you genuinely believe that there's a problem with new players not being able to get the hang of dueling before being thrown into the ring with the guy wearing wolf hide, then the suggestion I would make is to create some training area, a practice night and a dueling bot to wail upon at any hour of the day.

Developing actual tools for new people to practice with, or having a room or DUEL available certain nights of the week so that people can practice without the results being added to the official standings, these are things this thread should be discussing, not rummaging through the ancient idea of imposing social pressure on people to restrict their modifications for their characters, which I would argue would never work and could potentially backfire.

I remember a novelty program like this existing in the Team Dueling League, back in '98 or '99, that I used to mess around with. Does that little DoS robot still exist? The one that had the fencing silhouettes for each move? Open the closet and dust that sucker off and get it on the "Getting Started" tab.

I personally would love something like this for DoM, which is a matrix I find to be baffling at this stage. I practiced with Lacey's player tonight and she humiliated me twice while half asleep. Having some little doohickey to mess around with and experiment on would be nice. Having a bot in the chat rooms would be ideal. The sorts of devices players can run to when they don't understand something and can of use during off hours, I believe, would be the steps towards the future.

Right now there are zero people around. I could be spending my time on a practice dummy (dueling bot) so that when I get back here to start dueling again, I'll be better prepared. Just like the person who scouts their opponents before a challenge, those who work hardest in competitions usually have the best results.

Why should I give away my hard work to someone who has not earned it.

This in itself ties in with what I quoted from Jake. None of us can know what is going on in the other persons head. There isn't a way to quantify that they feel discouraged or are having a negative experience with the dueling venue unless they speak up or have a means of letting that feeling be known.

Duelist X comes around, and it's their first time dueling. They're not getting a lot of positive reception from the room and feeling discouraged, so they get into a duel and that person mod bombs them. Now they're even less likely to return OR speak up.

Assuming you're right, and I'd argue this too, because I think the duels have problems a hundred times larger than what you're describing, it would be more of a reason to set up some sort of training grounds so that if they're feeling timid, they can program some computer to fight against. Allow them to pick the rank of both sides and go at it without fear of losses. Maybe in addition, and I'm throwing ideas around here, if a bot cannot be created or cannot exist in the chat room, maybe a volunteer could be set up as a training dummy, to send in rudimentary moves.

These are ideas I would get behind. Not "dueling down" to the level of New Guy 105 in active competition.

And I'm going to put my actions where my mouth is and apply for a DUEL position.

I was planning on waiting a month after I got back, but I feel that since this topic has a life of its own, there's an opportunity to prove my meddle. My main reason, originally, would be to provide a late shift for players who wanted to stick around and duel after the posted final hours (or even to extend them!) and see how that worked out. If my suggestions pass into the light from the shadowy realm of forum arguments, I'll be more than happy provide any player, new and old, with a means to practice both as either a DUEL or as a DUMMY, if it proves too difficult to create some sort of training bot or until one can be created.

I have abjectly rejected your proposal, I would like your feedback as well s others, on mine.

And if I last long enough, which I hope that I will, maybe we'll have more of these lively talks.

[Jake]

I remember a novelty program like this existing in the Team Dueling League, back in '98 or '99, that I used to mess around with. Does that little DoS robot still exist? The one that had the fencing silhouettes for each move? Open the closet and dust that sucker off and get it on the "Getting Started" tab.

If you are referring to this one, it's still around, and still works. http://www.duelingzone.com/dz/games/index.cfm

[Seirichi]

I remember a novelty program like this existing in the Team Dueling League, back in '98 or '99, that I used to mess around with. Does that little DoS robot still exist? The one that had the fencing silhouettes for each move? Open the closet and dust that sucker off and get it on the "Getting Started" tab.

If you are referring to this one, it's still around, and still works. http://www.duelingzone.com/dz/games/index.cfm

Overlord rank CPU beat me 3 times in a row. My ego can't take this!

[Jake]

I remember a novelty program like this existing in the Team Dueling League, back in '98 or '99, that I used to mess around with. Does that little DoS robot still exist? The one that had the fencing silhouettes for each move? Open the closet and dust that sucker off and get it on the "Getting Started" tab.

If you are referring to this one, it's still around, and still works. http://www.duelingzone.com/dz/games/index.cfm

Overlord rank CPU beat me 3 times in a row. My ego can't take this!

Blame Kalamere. He wrote the logic, and to my recollection it IS at least somewhat adaptive. If you keep Thrusting, it will make you pay for it.

[Seirichi]

If you are referring to this one, it's still around, and still works. http://www.duelingzone.com/dz/games/index.cfm

Overlord rank CPU beat me 3 times in a row. My ego can't take this!

Blame Kalamere. He wrote the logic, and to my recollection it IS at least somewhat adaptive. If you keep Thrusting, it will make you pay for it.

1. th - lc
2. Fdu - sl

It slashed me!

On the topic of practice dueling. Candy and I have spoken up a few times about being willing to host / participate in practice matches; either in AIM chat or in the RoH Lobby.

Our AIM names are linked to our profiles so if you'd like to contact us, go ahead.

[Goldglo]

That CPU tool is a pain in the rear to beat, esp. when it's on Overlord/Baron.