Regarding a Recent Post about the Hydra Rules

[PrlUnicorn]

So as to not foul up Sylus's Hydra Rules thread, I want to address his recent post regarding dueling teammates under alts.

Sylus specifically stated that he was not making any accusations of cheating, but there is an implication in his post that someone did. I guess people didn't really pay attention to Rayvinn's post called Just a Concern... accusations of cheating are taken seriously in the RoH. However, such accusations aren't only leveled at callers, but those taking part in duels. Unfounded ones (i.e. no actual proof offered), regardless of what someone thinks is going on, are detrimental to play here.

If players are dueling fairly, i.e. not deciding an outcome ahead of time or sharing round by round info, then I don't see a problem dueling the alts of their teammate's players. The dueling community is not so large that we can always pick and choose what players we're getting to face off against.

The further implication of that post, thanks to whoever accused/complained/raised concerns, is that players involved in the Hydra are now to disclose all dueling alts to their teammates to avoid this type of situation. Yes, I know, we can choose to have a duel be Hydra or not and who to duel or not. Isn't the point of secret characters for the player behind them to remain a secret? Inquiries would be raised regarding the why. Frankly, it'd be rude to say "Do you have a character on Team X, Y, or Z because if you do, we can't count this for points." So much for player privacy. Let's also not forget that one player might have a character on two teams.

[Teagan]

That seems a little bit unreasonable. I realize Hydra isn't an official RoH thing, but when there were peer wins people didn't throw fits about someone dueling multiple WL alts of people just to finish their lists.

[Sylus Kurgen]

So as to not foul up Sylus's Hydra Rules thread, I want to address his recent post regarding dueling teammates under alts.

Sylus specifically stated that he was not making any accusations of cheating, but there is an implication in his post that someone did. I guess people didn't really pay attention to Rayvinn's post called Just a Concern... accusations of cheating are taken seriously in the RoH. However, such accusations aren't only leveled at callers, but those taking part in duels. Unfounded ones (i.e. no actual proof offered), regardless of what someone thinks is going on, are detrimental to play here.

If players are dueling fairly, i.e. not deciding an outcome ahead of time or sharing round by round info, then I don't see a problem dueling the alts of their teammate's players. The dueling community is not so large that we can always pick and choose what players we're getting to face off against.

The further implication of that post, thanks to whoever accused/complained/raised concerns, is that players involved in the Hydra are now to disclose all dueling alts to their teammates to avoid this type of situation. Yes, I know, we can choose to have a duel be Hydra or not and who to duel or not. Isn't the point of secret characters for the player behind them to remain a secret? Inquiries would be raised regarding the why. Frankly, it'd be rude to say "Do you have a character on Team X, Y, or Z because if you do, we can't count this for points." So much for player privacy. Let's also not forget that one player might have a character on two teams.

The two duelists involved in the precedent were not doing anything nefarious in my mind, nor were they trying to intentionally exploit that loophole in the rules. Upon doing my duel log for the tournament I would have come across the occurrence after the fact rather than while in progress. I would have preferred to find the occurrence after the fact and simply asked the two duelists about it.

As it was pointed out to me by others says more than I want to mention. While there is nothing saying we in the community cannot police our own, the situation was brought to me and I had to make a judicial decision. Is my ruling completely fair? No, not really. The match itself was only for 5 points. Not highly important in the grand scheme, however I didn't want to risk that one person going "Well its not in the rules...." and then there are others actively exploiting the loophole. This was a seal that fit the situation at hand.

The entire tournament is meant to be fun and casual, however I have had some come to me asking about what they can do because teammates are telling them not to duel for Hydra because they're new and lose more than they win. Others feel they are being boycotted in their preferred sport, some won't duel in a sport because there's never anyone around near their rank. These are all concerns that have been brought to me in regard to the Hydra Cup because those individuals don't know what they should do. And they're not all on the same team.

We in this community are, and can be, highly competitive. We all have our play partners who we trust, and duel for fun, but there are others who have heavy opinions that avoiding an illusion of impropriety should be forefront in a person's mind. Whether this is a hangover from the hayday of RoH when such were more commonplace I can't say, but the situation was handled, both duelists were fine with the 5 points not counting and both are just out to have fun with the tournament.

I really would rather everyone have fun, than be scrutinizing each other.

[Harris]

I was one of the people that brought it up. I'm not participating in this tournament, and Sylus has used me as a soundboard for his ideas. I didn't accuse anyone of cheating. I made it clear to Sylus that instances of players on the same teams dueling with their alts could *LEAD* to people using it to pad their team's points, and suggested he make it clear it's not something that should be allowed.

Let me make this perfectly clear again. I did not accuse anyone of cheating, I simply used the example of the duelists in question to point out someone could do the same thing intentionally, since it wasn't listed as being against the rules. My concern was not about the players in question, it was about other players seeing this and possibly exploiting it. You don't leave a rules loophole open and *HOPE* people don't abuse it. You simply close it so they can't. Take a brief moment to put the shoe on the other foot. If you saw this occur repeatedly on a team that wasn't your own, what would you think was happening?

If anyone has any further issues, please, feel free to take them up with me personally.

[PrlUnicorn]

We in this community are, and can be, highly competitive. We all have our play partners who we trust, and duel for fun, but there are others who have heavy opinions that avoiding an illusion of impropriety should be forefront in a person's mind. Whether this is a hangover from the hayday of RoH when such were more commonplace I can't say, but the situation was handled, both duelists were fine with the 5 points not counting and both are just out to have fun with the tournament.

I really would rather everyone have fun, than be scrutinizing each other.

I agree with you that we're all here to have fun. However, as Teagan pointed out no complaints were raised, during the heyday of RoH that you mentioned, about people dueling alts to fill in their peer win list. It was not considered improper to do so.

This tournament is your baby and you make the rules, however, editing the rules once the show is one the road becomes confusing to the players involved.

Who can help but not scrutinize at this point?

[Harris]

Dueling an alt for a peer win didn't move someone in the direction of winning something directly, it simply gave them the opportunity to win something. You didn't win a Barony with peer wins, you simply gained the opportunity to challenge. Different situation.

Dueling alts for points in this tournament can effectively push a team's total higher and directly influence who wins or doesn't win, if it's exploited intentionally. That's the difference.

I fail to see how the concept of not dueling the alts of your teammates for points is going to confuse anyone. It's minor in the grand scheme of things.

[Sylus Kurgen]

Saving Clause

Any dispute that is not clearly covered under the preceeding rules shall fall under the jurisdiction of the Duel of Swords Supervisor.

This, above, is all I'm doing. I addressed something not covered in the rules as is my right as tournament creator. You're right, Collie, this is my baby and I made a decision that felt to be in the best interests of everyone.

I encourage feedback to help me work out all of the flaws that I've missed in the tournament. As said before, I DO plan on making this a yearly event and everything that's been brought to me is considered and weighed to improve Hydra to run smoother next time around. At the end I fully plan on inviting one member of each team to work with me on Hydra Season 2.

I have worked on ideas to allow teams to protect their points more, ideas to allow an individual to compete, looking to possibly redo the point system. And I will invite others to help me with that, as I asked others to be soundboards this time around.

[PrlUnicorn]

If team members are found to be dueling one another under alternate screen names during regular hours for Hydra, points will be negated. This also applies retroactively to any duels found after the fact.

Here's my suggestion, Sylus, close the loophole as Harris suggested, move forward and avoid ex post facto rules, and call it a lesson learned for the future.

[PrlUnicorn]

Dueling an alt for a peer win didn't move someone in the direction of winning something directly, it simply gave them the opportunity to win something. You didn't win a Barony with peer wins, you simply gained the opportunity to challenge. Different situation.

Dueling alts for points in this tournament can effectively push a team's total higher and directly influence who wins or doesn't win, if it's exploited intentionally. That's the difference.

It can also push the total downward, hence my previous comment on dueling fairly.

[Siofra Kelley]

::putting shoe on other foot:: ....hmmm...definitely respect and understand and even appreciate that the Sylus was informed of a loophole that could potentially be exploited, and that it was addressed with the duelers themselves. I can also understand a feeling of insult at an insinuation of possible cheating but that was not the case here. The only reason I validate that feeling from a dueler is that loose lips can sink ships and unfortunately around here, integrity of a player or caller can be shattered quickly in an environment where honor and trust is necessary to keep with the spirit of the competitions and duels. While we would all like to think everyone would be on the up and up and doing the 'nailbiting' 'please don't do (this spell/that move), please don't do it.." rock back and forth or even the always exciting "I KNEW I should have gone with my gut on that one!" dance in our minds that we all do when we step in the rings, I'm sure in the past the luxury of creating many characters has served someone advantage from time to time when those alts go unknown.


Many times it is hindsight that allows the creators of these fun and exciting events/tournaments to tweak necessary loopholes here and there to ensure success of the event and possible return of it. (Which I'm stoked to see will be the case with the Hydra). So I for one, despite having already started the event, can understand the need for the adjustment. However, an interesting question/statement was raised...and one I didn't even know might be a possibility but some of you can handle all of those different personalities/alts in your head, I am not that skilled. What is to be said if there is a player on one team with an alt on another? Talk about split loyalty.

But I do understand and respect a need for a change so that IF there is any small seed of player integrity doubt that can be planted and is sometimes unavoidable even when no integrity issue was raised, doesn't grow into a full grown tree of unfounded resentment of the player. We all do this for fun and we all love/hate the anticipation and excitement we get when we are facing off in the rings, matching wit for wit/spell for spell/blade for blade/or fist for fist. I'm thankful for those that put their time and effort to create them and do what can be done to address any and all possible scenarios in which the event could possibly be skewed to an advantage. Duel on fellow peeps!

[Sylus Kurgen]

::putting shoe on other foot:: ....hmmm...definitely respect and understand and even appreciate that the Sylus was informed of a loophole that could potentially be exploited, and that it was addressed with the duelers themselves. I can also understand a feeling of insult at an insinuation of possible cheating but that was not the case here. The only reason I validate that feeling from a dueler is that loose lips can sink ships and unfortunately around here, integrity of a player or caller can be shattered quickly in an environment where honor and trust is necessary to keep with the spirit of the competitions and duels. While we would all like to think everyone would be on the up and up and doing the 'nailbiting' 'please don't do (this spell/that move), please don't do it.." rock back and forth or even the always exciting "I KNEW I should have gone with my gut on that one!" dance in our minds that we all do when we step in the rings, I'm sure in the past the luxury of creating many characters has served someone advantage from time to time when those alts go unknown.


Many times it is hindsight that allows the creators of these fun and exciting events/tournaments to tweak necessary loopholes here and there to ensure success of the event and possible return of it. (Which I'm stoked to see will be the case with the Hydra). So I for one, despite having already started the event, can understand the need for the adjustment. However, an interesting question/statement was raised...and one I didn't even know might be a possibility but some of you can handle all of those different personalities/alts in your head, I am not that skilled. What is to be said if there is a player on one team with an alt on another? Talk about split loyalty.

But I do understand and respect a need for a change so that IF there is any small seed of player integrity doubt that can be planted and is sometimes unavoidable even when no integrity issue was raised, doesn't grow into a full grown tree of unfounded resentment of the player. We all do this for fun and we all love/hate the anticipation and excitement we get when we are facing off in the rings, matching wit for wit/spell for spell/blade for blade/or fist for fist. I'm thankful for those that put their time and effort to create them and do what can be done to address any and all possible scenarios in which the event could possibly be skewed to an advantage. Duel on fellow peeps!

A couple of people who have alts on different teams asked me this today, and I'll give you the answer I gave them, Siofra.

In that instance they can duel whomever they want from another team. What this is pertaining to is preventing anyone from using their alternate characters (characters not in the tournament) to pad their team with points. This is the main reason behind my ruling.

[Siofra Kelley]

Ahh got ya. Makes sense. Thanks Sylus!

[MurOllavan]

The entire tournament is meant to be fun and casual, however I have had some come to me asking about what they can do because teammates are telling them not to duel for Hydra because they're new and lose more than they win. Others feel they are being boycotted in their preferred sport

I think if someone tells a teammate not to duel I would wonder why they have them on the team in the first place and that seems rude. As for being boycotted I can only guess that is magic. I was intending on being much more active especially there but obviously now Mur and Degnor are going to be extremely choosy. After the bounty Mur will duel as often as they want in whatever sport they want. If anyone wants to gamble with our points it can't be me because I didn't put in the hard work and effort to earn them.

[G]

While we would all like to think everyone would be on the up and up and doing the 'nailbiting' 'please don't do (this spell/that move), please don't do it.." rock back and forth or even the always exciting "I KNEW I should have gone with my gut on that one!"

Just a quick interjection here....

YEsssssss.... I'm not the only one who does the EXACT three things listed above at certain rounds. Especially challenges. lol

[G]

In regards to the magic boycotting, I don't think so much that it's a boycott, as it is looking at the way the teams are stacked up. One team is teeming with Magic, while the others may have only one or two, if any. IF those even show up, there's still more of a chance that duelist may be engaged in the other sports due to the other teams being more stacked for Fists and Swords.

It's less boycotting and more availability and interest. What I would suggest is, perhaps, a better balancing system to make sure that duelists are spread more evenly.

----
This is more work. But in a way we had done or tried in the old World League from many years back, we had a system for picking duels. Where there were 4 duels, one in each sport and the home team picked the 4th duel style.

Perhaps first, a system is made to balance how the team is made up.
8 teams, right?

Captain chooses the duelists specialties for the team.
Team A
1. Swords
2. Swords
3. Swords
4. Fists
5. Fists
6. Fists
7. Magic
8. Magic

Team B
1. Swords
2. Swords
3. Swords
4. Fists
5. Fists
6. Magic
7. Magic
8. Magic

Team C
1. Swords
2. Swords
3. Fists
4. Fists
5. Fists
6. Magic
7. Magic
8. Magic
---

Now, each duelist registers, and selects a specialty for which they will duel.
I.E.
G'nort: Specialty, Swords
Siofra: Specialty Magic
Mur: Specialty Fists.

The team captain is allowed to stack their team however, But, only with duelists at their specialties. Like Team A can only stack 3 Swords specialties, and so on. This way, all teams have someone who is able to duel comfortably in each sport, and everyone has the chance to find an opponent.

Duelists could still duel in other sports, Like, G could still duel in Fists. And also, perhaps a bonus could be given for dueling in their sport, thus encouraging each duelist to try for their specialty.

Like I said, lotta extra work, and maybe too many rules to place into it for captains to worry about or whatever, but also, maybe it'll balance against teams stacked for one sport. Which is the case on one or two.

Dunno, makes sense?