Improving Duel of Magic

[Max Blue]

The rules discussions for DoM have been ongoing for years and years and years, and the majority of the problems have remained the same. From the duels taking forever to some of the combination results not making sense to issues of lower ranks not having as much access to the matrix as the higher ranks.

It's a cycle that never ends, just rolls over once the new changes get re-broken.

Honestly the best way I can see for "fixing" DoM is to redesign it from the bottom up. Start over completely. Make a brand new matrix instead of cutting and pasting and modifying the current one until it's barely recognizable from the original (It already is).

Redesign the ranks and challenge system. If there's something that did work, keep it. If there's something that doesn't work, throw it out.

It'll give everyone a fresh start with dueling of the same style. It would quite possible return some interest in players who perhaps were burned out or never got into DoM because they disliked the system.

[MurOllavan]

I was going to make a thread on this under Matrix changes after my discussion with Jake, but this starter will suffice. So you're saying create a completely new matrix? Seem to say also that using the strengths of the other matrixes or things that work decently in DoM already(there are parts of the matrix that make sense and work well gamewise) are inferior to a complete overhaul or simply 'might as well'?

There is always the danger that the new one may have its own problems. To be honest I've always had a lot of tweaking ideas but I've never really thought about overhaul. I do agree that with all the changes being discussed a complete overhaul is not exactly a huge step past the proposals.

[Harris]

The essential difficulty with breaking DoM apart and overhauling it entirely is that it suddenly becomes a completely foreign entity. There's the possibility of alienating veteran duelists that have spent years honing tactics. That goes down the drain and everyone starts off at the bottom level. For those people that don't consider DoM their sport, how would you (general you) feel if the current DoS or DoF system was scrapped entirely and you had to start over again? That would be years or even a decade of work rendered meaningless by the overhaul.

I think implementing small changes and first seeing if those help improve things is a much better idea than simply saying, "This doesn't work, let's start over".

[Max Blue]

How many small changes have been implemented only to continue making new threads about what else would help DoM?

The matrix has been tweaked. The way we gain new spells from ranks has been tweaked. Tournaments have been added and altered. Gimmick prizes to help make it easier for new people to get involved and gain rank have been thrown out time after time.

Despite all of that, there are still rules discussions going on about what else we have to do to make DoM better. This has been going on since the AOL days. That's more than 7 years, for anyone not keeping count. 7+ years of discussing the same rules for the same matrix of the same game and expecting it to be fixed. Some people call that insanity.

All of the discussions going on now revolve around how you get around the issues that are currently in the game. How can you make this spell better? But you can't make it too much better, because it's going to mess with that spell. Or you can't hand out too many WoL in prizes because then what's the point of dueling during regular hours? You can't give everyone all of the advanced spells because what's the point of gaining rank?

Why keep working with limitations on what you can do to make the game better? If you scrap the entire thing and rebuild it without having to cater to what currently exists, you can do a whole lot more with it. You can institute new mechanics without worrying about preexisting ones because you're creating everything to work with everything else from the very beginning. You can design the new matrix to make duels quicker without changing one spell and hoping that tips the scale. You can change the entire idea of rank bonuses without devaluing the ranks because you're designing it with every rank in mind, instead of only a few of the ranks, so long as it doesn't screw up the other ranks.

I understand the hesitation when it comes to older players. It's not the exact same situation, but the DoS ring reduction is quite similar. People held the rings that are no longer being used anymore. It wasn't an entire game overhaul, but it was a significant change in game play and history, and it hasn't blown up. It's not like the histories would be utterly erased. Rebuilding DoM would only be a new era of the sport.

[Harris]

I don't disagree with the sentiment that the *best* way to fix DoM is to overhaul it entirely. I've thought that for a long time. But what we can't discern is what a complete overhaul might cost. DoM has always been the number 3 sport. It can't take the same potential blows something like DoS did when the ring reduction was introduced. Players left. But the player base was large enough to still sustain the sport and keep it moving forward. DoM doesn't have that same extensive player base to draw from. I think an overhaul is a risk that could cause DoM to crumble entirely. What it boils down to is the risk worth it at this point? I can't really answer that.

[Max Blue]

As someone who has done DoM in the past to the point of holding titles, and then stopped, I would give it another try if there was an overhaul. I do have an interest in playing a magic-based character, but I have simply lost interest in what it takes to become established in the current DoM.

It can't hurt to attempt it even without implementing. I have a few ideas for it, especially about rank benefits, and one prominent DoM player seemed to take real interest in them.

But at this point, is it possible the constant rules discussions take some fun from the game? The player base isn't exactly growing with the way things are. If it were me, and I drew up a new matrix (which I am little by little as parts come to mind), new ranks and a new game and I felt really good about it, it's a risk I probably would take.

[Harris]

I'm sure plenty of people would jump on trying out an entirely new matrix. But would they stay? Would it re-energize the player base long term, or would it wane after six months? Again, I'm not opposed to the idea, I just don't think it's as simple a fix as building a new matrix and starting over. I think there are other elements that need to seriously be considered first. New matrix, new rules, new problems.

[MurOllavan]

I would disagree with the 7+ years and the same ideas though, as they were never tried. The ideas being discussed now were discussed before even as early as 11 years ago or more. The difference is they had almost no chance of being implemented prior.

In my view, not much has really has changed in magic over the last fourteen+ years gamewise. I see little difference between 96-98 and now, really other than a lot less players playing. The matrix change was a little change, and didn't address the concerns that spawned it. The keepers just provided a challengeable rank. I'm left wondering what really has been done.

So I think there's a chance of testing new ideas in actualy play. I agree that the move to RoH exposed a lot of weaknesses in the DoM game system and we as a group have slowly come to a 'its broke' mentality. Though I agree with Harris that trying to tweak even through heavy-handed ways is a better approach, at least at the time.

[Neo Eternity]

Now we are treading on dangerous ground, talking about a complete overhaul. I think this is too drastic, too soon.

Honestly, am I the only DoM regular who doesn't think that DoM is completely broken? I keep hearing all this talk about futility, about how things are too broken, etc etc etc. Am I the only one with any hope for the stuff we have now?

We haven't playtested anything yet. Why don't we start with that before we even think about talking about throwing everything out?

[Max Blue]

If you really do have to ask yourself if you're the only person who doesn't think it's broken, shouldn't that tell you something? An overhaul is too drastic, too soon compared to what?

There are 19 threads in this OOC folder discussing a rules change or tweak or proposal, not including the DoM4 threads, dating back to July of 2004.

So if so little has changed over that time, but so many threads of suggestions have been brought up, maybe I'm lost on the problem. To me that says there hasn't been an idea come up that's good enough to do what everyone wants it to do, so it gets forgotten.

[MurOllavan]

If you really do have to ask yourself if you're the only person who doesn't think it's broken, shouldn't that tell you something? An overhaul is too drastic, too soon compared to what?

There are 19 threads in this OOC folder discussing a rules change or tweak or proposal, not including the DoM4 threads, dating back to July of 2004.

So if so little has changed over that time, but so many threads of suggestions have been brought up, maybe I'm lost on the problem. To me that says there hasn't been an idea come up that's good enough to do what everyone wants it to do, so it gets forgotten.

Or that the problems underlying the proposed changes in the past were not seen as credible and those ideas while they could be discussed had almost no chance of implementation?

[Neo Eternity]

The problem was that back then, there was no chance of anything being changed. Now we can change everything if we truly deem it necessary.

Like I said, we haven't playtested anything yet. A complete overhaul is too soon.

[Lem DeAngelo]

I think it would be wise to see some of the proposed ideas playtested before we consider a total overhaul. I don't think DoM is broken by any means. Under a certain few scenarios, it does present some serious disadvantages, but I wouldn't say it's completely broken. And I've been playing since right around the introduction of Foul Fog, Fear Touch, Nether Ray and Immolation.

Also, I don't think there have been that many serious game changes since the late 90s. The perfect defense was eliminated, and the Keepers were added. And the Keepers were more of a roleplay change since elemental fury can only be used in challenge or against another Keeper.

That's just my opinion. I will say that it's hard to comment on a total overhaul without knowing anything at all about the proposed idea though. If there are people with the passion to present an overhaul, they could consider designing a matrix and having an unofficial tournament to play test. Sort of like the Duel of Core a long, long time ago.

[Scorched Druid]

So we're all back to this?

It's true that the topic of "How can we improve DoM and get people involved again?" has cropped up off and on for nearly the last 10-12 years. Heavy discussion in 2004.

It's also true that changes have been implemented successfully.

I think the consensus is clear that a full overhaul would be detrimental to the sport as a whole. We don't have the numbers for that kind of experiment and as stated it would make any and all efforts made by the founders of the sport and the veterans meaningless.

When Neo was made the new Coordinator he was trusted to protect this sport and it's participants and make sure that any and all changes were with our best interest in mind. Could just be me, but a complete overhaul is kinda like spitting in the faces of people like Etherean, Klytus, Jaleeisa, and the others who helped build this up from an idea.

Play-testing aside, the changes need to address problem points but also be respectful to the sport and its creators.

Now before anyone goes "Well, okay, what's your idea?" I'll remind you all of the dead-horse I've been beating since proposing it.

In February of 2010 I responded this initially to Tass' thoughts

The current matrix is as balanced as it is going to be. We already know that the 20 WoL was implemented to separate DoM from the other two sports as is the working of Advanced spells in place of Fancies.

The only reworking that can be advised without breaking the matrix would be a re-evaluation of point values. Redo how much some spells are worth to cut down on the .5 rounds.

and then this discussion thread

Dead Horse

[Wulfson]

It was never completely broken. For one, not everyone has to like all three sports. DoM was really (and still is) the only one of the three I truly enjoyed (I'm not counting TDL as DoS).

Not everything (especially a dueling matrix) requires "balance". If something is truly "balanced", then you may as well flip a coin to see who wins. That's not fun. Skill and familiarity should count for something.

If you completely rewrite the matrix, you need to stop calling it DoM, because at that point it won't be. You'll be invalidating all of the dueling history of everyone who's dueled with it up to that point.

Don't try to turn it into DoS. DoS skill != (that's not equals for the non programmers) DoM skill, and vice versa. The best I could manage in DoS in all of the years was less than 10 WoL. You never heard me complaining that DoS needed to change to accomodate me. If you're great at DoS but suck at DoM it's because they truly are different games. They're supposed to be. Keep it that way.