[DoM4] Super Modifier

[Neo Eternity]

Even though I haven't been talking about it to many people, I have been thinking on my own ideas for a next-gen DoM. This is my favorite one, and here is my explanation why.

The original and current incentive to gaining rank is that you would get to earn new spells. The reason this was chosen was that this is how leveling up in role-playing games works. The spells are meant to be extra additions that expand upon the basic tier's combat possibilities... but unfortunately, it didn't really work out that way. The unfortunate reality is that the basic tier is like an incomplete jigsaw puzzle, with pieces missing. The advanced spells fill certain niches that need to be filled. And not only that, this is what causes such bad rank parity in DoM. Even with the fancies of DoS, even with the high number of mods DoF gets, DoM still has worse rank parity. Why? Because higher ranks get to use moves that the lower ranks don't. Lower ranks don't get to learn how they interact with other moves, what their intended uses are, their strengths and weaknesses... the only time they get to find out is when they get hit by them, and when they participate in ARTs. This is why you see LOTS of advanced spells thrown around during ARTs: this is the only chance for many duelists to learn about the advanced moves. And it's also why Ring of Klytus wielders seem to have less difficulty in gaining rank; they get to experiment freely with advanced moves for the entire cycle! I know I certainly appreciated the opportunities.

So I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. It's time to expose the entire advanced tier to everyone. Sure, the old rank incentives made sense in the scope of a role-playing game. But guess what? Even though we do role-play, dueling isn't an RPG. It's a fighting game. I can imagine you on the other side of the screen going "WhawhahwhaWHAAAAT?!" I kid you not; dueling is a fighting game. No, it doesn't have the fast paced gameplay, or the crazy combos that you see in games like Guilty Gear and BlazBlue... but it has what is ultimately the most important element: prediction. That's right, fighting games are alllll about prediction. You try to figure out what your opponent will do so you can counter it. You try to act in unpredictable ways so you can throw them off. You wait for them to make mistakes so you can punish them. You take risks that may or may not pay off. I am simultaneously describing dueling and fighting games. Dueling is the prediction element extracted, purified, and slowed down. When I even described dueling to one of my IRL friends, a tournament-level fighting game player, he said, "Sounds like a fighting game, bro." And he's right! That's what dueling is. One important element of fighting games is that every single move is available to you from the get-go. I can't think of any fighting game where you have to unlock a move in order to use it and get to know it whereas someone else who's already unlocked it can bust it out on you. How would you be able to fight against something like that? And that's why I think it's time to expose the entire advanced tier to everyone in DoM.

That would fix the rank parity issue, and even the balance issue. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I LOVE the advanced 12 matrix. I love it love it love it love it. It's very well balanced, and it allows DoM's strategic variety to shine the brightest. There is no semi-perfect defense in the advanced 12; if you turtle, MS and AB will clean your clock. But that leaves us with no incentive for duelists to gain rank, and even with the advanced 12, duels could still stand to be faster. That's where the Super modifier comes in. Yes, I'm proposing that we finally fall in with DoS and DoF and use a modifier.

I've been thinking on a modifier that would be appropriate for DoM for some time, and Lem and I seemed to have the same kind of idea. Lem's idea was the Double modifier, which basically meant that a duelist would cast a spell twice, and it would either score twice, or be scored against twice. Basically, whenever a double spell is used, the score for the round, be it the user or the person used against, would be doubled. So DMB vs MB would be 2 - 2. It would speed up duels, and give incentive to gain rank aside from the advanced spells. And higher ranks could even use it more conscienably than fancies or feints because there is more risk to them than just a lost modifier. But there were some things I didn't like about it. For one, duels would get WAY too fast. It would take two double offenses and one single offense or double defense to win a duel... three rounds. And the concept also doesn't fall in with DoM's RP philosophy. It implies that you have to cast a spell twice, and it's kind of tough to wrap your head around it to make it make sense. Calling it anything but double would fix this.

My super modifier's a little different. It can still be applied to any spell, offensive or defensive. On success, it will give an extra 0.5. So SMB vs MW gets 1.5 - 0, SMB vs WB 1 - 0, and SMB vs MB 1.5 - 1. It carries no risk or reward for if it fails. SMB vs SH is just 0 - 0.5. Even in the basic tier, this has uses. The semi-perfect defense there can be beaten just with this. SH after WB is so strategically sound because nothing can score a full point against it, and only DP can score half. SDP vs. SH, 1 - 0. It speeds up duels, but not by too much. It still allows a duelist to win a duel in less than five rounds, but it's not as dramatic of a difference. It creates greater move possibilities without changing the moves or how the game is played at its core. It should be a smooth transition (at least for players) from DoM 3.2 to DoM 4 if we use this. And any "super" spell can be roleplayed any way you want. One big con is how much changing the caller tools would need.

I'd also like for Magi aand Keepers to retain their unique spells... NR, IM, and EF. EF was never terribly imbalanced; you could only use it against other keepers and only once in a duel. But NR and IM are overpowered and completely unrestricted. They are part of what makes the mage rank unique though, so I don't mind keeping them, but they need to be restricted. I propose that they cost a certain number of modifiers to use.

So that's the general idea... now for the specifics. In contrast to the other two sports, I'd like apprentices to have one super to start out with. You'd gain one with each rank increase. So enchanters would have two, sorcerors three, up until mage, which would have six. The archmage would have seven. RoK would give an extra super. And I think NR and IM should cost about 2 supers to use.

So, that there is my favorite idea for DoM 4. Comments? Criticisms? Suggestions? Tweaks to the specifics? Anything else?

[Neo Eternity]

First, apologies for double-posting. Why am I double-posting instead of editing my post? Because this way, we can keep a chronology of the changes the idea goes through.

Harris and I talked about this one, and everything was in accord up until the proposed restrictions to the mage spells. In retrospect, being able to modify moves takes away a lot of the power that NR and IM have. So I append my proposal to remove the cost of using mage spells, at least for now.

We can decide more on that part, along with others, with more discussion and testing. I'm pretty stoked that it hasn't even been an hour since this ball got rolling and we've already got one idea refined a little bit.

Also, maybe we could come up with a more magicky name than "super"?

[DUEL Kheldar]

You could go with Focused. As in Focused Mage Bolt, Focused Mind Whip... The mod being called just focus..

In fact, if you were looking to differentiate it further from other sports mods, you could make different spells cost different amount of focus points to make strongs. basic tier take one point of focus, advanced worth 2 and mage worth 3... and so on.. Or whatever works out balanced in testing

[Misty]

I propose "Meta". As in the concept of metamagic, or enhanced/advanced spellcasting.

[Scorched Druid]

I'll think on this a day or so and come back with a reasoned devil's addy on some of it.

The one thing I will point out now is this...

There is no semi-perfect defense in the advanced 12; if you turtle, MS and AB will clean your clock.

That's ignoring the thread of Foul Fog and Ghost Form which are turtle spells. And both beat those two. Even with the Full matrix you can still turtle if you know your opponent and really understand the nuances of the matrix.

[MurOllavan]

As Neo already knows, him and myself have talked at length awhile back about what I used to call Lem's solution(this). It was interesting to me as my original add AB idea had been diluted due to matrix changes and I hated the remove rank that went with it and I realized this solved the parity problem in a better way, heavy handed as it is.

So we have an ART-like setup that resembles DoF in game mechanics somewhat. I have to say I like it, since moving to RoH from AOL DoF became my favored system as DoM worked much better on full chatrooms in the past. Looking through old DoS todays I found a section where Klytus makes three points about the creation of the game. One, that it should be open to newcomers, two it should have its own culture and be different, and lastly characters should gain spells vs mods. I think this idea breaks three but is a long overdue boost for the first and most important point. And we keep the second obviously.

The question of what rank benefits should be is the most important issue that I can see. I originally voiced the opinion that defensive spells (R,G,A,S,FF,D) should be the only ones that can be modded and I still think that idea isn't so bad.

As far as the progression, I disagree with apprentices getting one. I think a 0-4 model is best with enchanters at one and wizards at four. Since the idea of having mage powers cost anything is apparently removed(and I disagree with them costing anything fwiw) I don't think mages+ should get additional bonuses as far as mods, since the spells they receive are mods.

I also wonder if mage spells should be mod'd? At least from what I've been reading Mur as AM would get 7 mods and could mod NR? As if I don't spam it enough already, Neo you know how I play. Seems to me like it could be an issue even with mages. With Mur as mage, I don't like him throwing 3-4 mod'd NRs against another rank irregardless of them having 12 spells and 1 mod or whatever from a game theory perspective. So I'm for no mods on mage powers.

Which brings this up - mods on EF? I don't like it either. As Neo knows I don't like EF in the first place as essentially it just reduces a match to 4pts. Mod'd is even worse.

I think the idea will change the way the game is played, not just for parity(I'd love to start using all the spells on lower ranks) but for mage/mage duels in some interesting ways.

Ideas I would bring up later perhaps best suited for another thread would be 1. ARTs probably don't need keeping wins as I feel that was instituted as a way to help lower ranks without actually admitting the parity problem and 2. Revisit challenge rights for Keeper for same reason as above, at the very least remove the spell restrictions, etc that a mage endures when being challenged for keeper by a 2WoL opponent. I think that making mage is less important with this, challenging could provide a reason to still go after the top rank.

Summing up my ideas/take on this:
1. 0-4 model enchanter to wizard for mods
2. Can't mod anything not in basic 12
3. Perhaps think about mods only affecting defensive spells
4. Revisit old rules later concerning challenges/tournaments
5. Do a lot of playtesting as potential for abuse exists (AM with 7 mods modding I/NR/EF would be ridiculous, I would bet if playtested)

[MurOllavan]

Re: Druid

Turtling is still quite possible with 12. Obviously, and modded turtling becomes part of the game. G becomes insanely powerful. FF becomes wicked as pointed out.

My defensive mods only (can't go over a point, forgot to mention that) solves part of this. FF gains little as does A and D(D almost becomes a logical choice, its been crushed since the matrix change). G remains wicked, and I don't see a way around that. R remains as is, though it gained a bit from the matrix change and S becomes quite powerful as well.

With all mods...G becomes wicked along with S becoming the next best defense because of its reaction to mage powers. A and D remain the same. FF crushes. MB gains a lot. MW remains the same. FT crushes I think. MS crushes now and will get better, and AB gets better due to NR being modded and the defenses. R still sucks. NR owns the matrix tying for 1.5-1 when it doesn't hit for 1.5 I take 'success' to include trades. Immo suffers, and its only gotten worse over the years and changes which I've always hated as mage power it should be a better choice than G/S/MS which it isn't in like 95%+ of games. EF would become just plain stupid powerful.

edit: Also, fwiw, I think the matrix will be fine for 12x12's. With the exception of G becoming a heck of a spell, it should be totally cool. My concerns with the system revolve solely around mages+, especially mages vs wizard or less.

[Scorched Druid]

Re: Druid

Turtling is still quite possible with 12. Obviously, and modded turtling becomes part of the game. G becomes insanely powerful. FF becomes wicked as pointed out.

I'll discuss this quote here in a moment. However I'm still reading through your proposal Neo and will have a more indepth analysis posted come friday. For now I will just set down some of my personal thoughts on the modding suggestion.

When I first began dueling around 05/06 there were difficulties because the matrix had not switched yet to the one we use now. Along with Brigath, Face Loran, Rena, and a few others we playtested to repair the matrix into it's current incarnation which strengthened Foul Fog and reduced Fear Touch and one other. Been several years.

An odd side-effect came from these changes in regards to the niched spells (MS/AB/GF/R). For each one of those spells there are at least 3-4 of the Basic 8 that best them, tie them, or nullify them. Granted most are only by a half point, however that should reflect the rank parity. An Apprentice outscoring a Magie and it being a half is part of that reflection.

What this means is that a duelist who takes the time to master the basic tier, can beat any duelist using the full matrix. I have proven this against Neo, Mur, and Misty. However, I am not the only duelist to follow this path. "Master the Basics, and you Master the Matrix" is a school of thought I picked up from Cory Havoick's player. This is where I come back to the quote above. While modding can speed up duels giving you 2pts on a spell, it holds the same for turtling as Mur pointed out. Modded Turtling.

As much as I support the thought behind wanting to cut down on the number of ties, and reduce 15 round matches, I do not believe opening the full matrix up to everyone will necessarily mean an increase in participation. DoM has a stigma the other two do not. This is reflected in the literary archtype of characters who are classified as "magic user". As an archtype, Magic Users are Elitists. They are not about the challenge and testing their skill against new blood that melee(DoS/DoF) are.

We can correct the matrix and rank disparity all we want. However, CHARACTERS avoid magic more than they come to it in regards to dueling. Overall I'm on the fence with this because I do believe there could be a better option than continuing the trend that makes all 3 sports so uniform and identical. It's a hardline to walk in bringing in new people while remaining unique from the others.

As I said before, these are just my personal thoughts. Friday I will present a more objectiv posting specifically relating to points in your proposal. Neo.

ETA: I just saw your other post regarding open discussion and so I reiterate my former sentiments to stand behind Elegance in Simplicity.

The ACHIEVEMENTS have only recently been implimented and now you want to put DoM under construction. We have 3 tournaments in January and then March Madness right around the corner. The timing on this is a bit ill-concieved.

~ Dru-mun.

[MurOllavan]

What this means is that a duelist who takes the time to master the basic tier, can beat any duelist using the full matrix. I have proven this against Neo, Mur, and Misty. However, I am not the only duelist to follow this path. "Master the Basics, and you Master the Matrix" is a school of thought I picked up from Cory Havoick's player.

I appreciate the sentiment about the basic eight, and they are so important and useful. I'm not sure what you've proved concerning full matrix vs basic 8 since doesn't everyone in that list duel at rank? Maybe just me... An apprentice can beat a mage, definately. Though 'can' doesn't imply any given frequency which is the meat of the matter.

Apps do it to Mur all the time since I limit him, boring as it is its much less boring than the other choice to me at least. As far as full matrix vs 8 winrates go, new players would win about 5% of the time, and I guess an experienced player would steal about 15-20 percent if they tried hard. The above points were that it is a bit low for the game in general.

I appreciate the thoughts on RP & setting culture. I agree wholeheartedly that DoM should be always stay different, and that its ingrained in the subject matter itself.

I'm not sure about participation increases as you stated but I do know there has been a ton of players that have had less fun/interest due to game imbalances.

As far as 12x12 turtling, it looks like we agree on all previous strategies working. Almost obviously since the interactions don't change, just the round values.

[Lem DeAngelo]

I think this could be a very good/fun idea. I definitely think that the 12 matrix must be opened up to all ranks in order to see growth, and then also retain that growth. Spell progression worked when there were several duelists at each rank and when there was a constant stream of new duelists. The current player base has been too small to support spell progression due to the advanced spells and powers being over powered in comparison to the basic 8. 

I think the modifier would be a good addition that would make duels more interesting and a bit faster. It is getting to be very difficult to find time to duel when a single match can take 45+ minutes. This also takes a toll on callers when they oversee tournaments. Some speed is needed and has been discussed at length in the past.

I don't think apprentices should receive a modifier as they already have the most to gain from getting access to the full matrix.

I don't think we should limit the mods to only defensive spells since Reflect and Foul Fog are defensive yet they can still score a full point with the current matrix. DoM is already defense heavy in my opinion, so I think we'd need to allow mods on all spells in order to keep some parity between offense and defense.

I agree with Mur on the 0-4 mod system. Wizards and above can use 4 mods. Anything more than that would be way too over powered.
 
I also agree with Mur that GF will be too overpowered, and I think it is already too overpowered in the current matrix. Maybe it should lose to Reflect. If GF can somehow score against Armor and Displace score against shield, I don't see why Reflect couldn't beat GF. I am reflecting your spooky self, and thereby spooking you with your spooky self. Reflect could definitely use a boost.(If that is too much off topic, feel free to move it or delete it.)

I'm undecided on modified powers and modified EF. Nether Ray could be an issue, but I don't think it will be that bad with only 4 mods. Especially when you can get burned by a modded AB. EF is almost a guaranteed 1.5, but if you're using EF it means your opponent has a guaranteed 1.5 as well so it evens out. Again, I'm undecided here but currently leaning towards leaving the mod on all spells just to keep it as simple as possible.

I also like the name Focus that Kheldar suggested. Very RPG-ish.
 
I'd like to play test if anyone plays before 10 EST on weeknights or before maybe 12 EST on the weekends. I'm too old to be staying up any later than that.

[Leroy J. Reindeer]

Just throwing it out for the modifier idea, what if the modifier was tweaked to read as follows?

Using the modifier earns the user an extra .5 point if the opponent's unmodified spell does not score.

Examples follow. For simplicity, I will use the letter "X" to symbolize the modifier. The first move belongs to Duelist A, the second to Duelist B.

XMB-MW - 1.5-0 Duelist A (Hit goes to a 1.5 with the modified move.)
MW-XMS - 2.5-1 Duelist A (No bonus because MW scores on MS.)
GF-XDS - 2.5-1.5 Duelist A (Duelist B takes an advantage here for modding a null round.)
XFT-SH - 2.5-2 Duelist A (as before, no benefit because SH scores on FT.)
XAR-XRF - 3-2.5 Duelist A (Would have been a null round. Both modded, so both take an advantage.)

And so on.

I agree that it needs to go to all spells because sometimes defensive spells can go for full points while sometimes offensive spells go for advantages. I think this method is at least feasible to speed up the game because it means that if a mod is used, somebody is scoring that round.

[Neo Eternity]

Sorry I haven't responded in so long. The Spring semester started sooner than I was ready for, and I had to get my ducks in a row.

I am available for playtesting at anytime except these: all day Tuesdays and Fridays, Monday nights from 8 to 9:30, Saturdays from 8:30 to 11 (my DoS shift), and Monday-Friday up until 4 PM. All times in EST.

[Wulfson]

My defensive mods only

Devils Advocate here. You're concerned about turtling, but wouldn't defense-only mods just encourage more turtling?

[MurOllavan]

Not so concerned about turtling when it comes to mage on mage or 12x12 w/+3mods. I meant it would still exist, for 12x12 apprentices and 12x12+1 enchanters in the way it is currently a good strategy for those ranks now in DoM.

I was encouraging discussion on defensive mods only because I was afraid of the repercussions of modded advanced offenses, particularly NR+mod. I just felt that original idea of how a mod could be implemented would lead to very quick 3-0 spots and so on.

I felt 12x12 dueling would make DoM pretty much as fast as the other sports, modding all 12 and in particular modding mage powers on top would make it too fast, in my opinion. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would think you would see a lot of 3-0 2nd round duels.

I didn't have a better idea, and I was also noting that a modded G is an extremely strong move. The defensive mods doesn't solve the problem as I stated,agreed. I was searching for a good answer as to what increasing rank would provide with a 12x12. I didn't want it to be a super-powerful modifier, nor a lack of any advantage whatsoever.

The way DoM's matrix is setup, the defensive mods only like in fists doesn't work so well due to certain defenses being very strong and being outright designed to be that way. But modifiers on all moves seemed to be blatant overkill. I was hoping for an out of the box idea.

[Neo Eternity]

Then let's bang our heads together and find that out-of-the-box idea. I've got a few swirling around right now that just need to be fleshed out. I think Druid's idea concerning style points might have been a good general direction to go. I'll continue thinking on it myself.

And I am still available for playtesting should anyone want to try this out.