My own DoM proposal.

[Scorched Druid]

Will,

Those reasons are why I think many liked Jake's suggested change to the original. Duelists get their permanent spell like normal, however they get 1 extra spell to play with that is up to change per duel. "Try before you buy" concept. Much like in D&D 3.5 where a 5th level wizard cast Level 1 through 5 spells but still has level 6 spells listed in his daily allowance. He knows the spell but using them costs more and usually only 1 allowed for the day. So maybe a way to incorporate that would be That the +1 spell be limited per night. So the extra spell announced is the one they get for that night.

[Wulfson]

Okay then, (and I'm just offering this as a devil's advocate, if someone already mentioned doing this in a previous post or thread, I'm not trying to take credit for it) a different way to play it might be to give all of the advanced spells (not mage spells) to everyone but limit the number of advanced spells that can be used during a duel by rank. So, an apprentice might be able to use 1, on up to 5 for a wizard. In addition, a Mage would be able to use one mage spell per duel, and the Archmage two. Emeritus would just get the honorific title and their picture on the tunnel wall leading from the locker room to the dueling rings (am I the only one who remembers Sam and Mike RPing that?).

This would certainly prevent mage spell abuse (and yes, I do agree mage spells could be abused. Nether ray every other round, could constitute an abuse, or NR/I/NR/I by an Archmage, but in some cases, it would just be funny). It would give apprentices the potential to use an arctic blast or meteor shower against turtling (although by no means guaranteed to always work, but nothing's guaranteed), yet still keep the present ranks in place and give perks for gaining rank.

If we did this, I might be in favor of allowing Keepers to use their EF spell once during regular duels, except that for the Archmage, it might be a little overbalancing, unless we still limit the AM to one mage spell casting per duel, plus EF. (Edit: This wouldn't give the AM any advantage against a Mage Keeper , which I wouldn't agree with, the AM should still have an advantage, maybe let the AM use two EFs in this case or something...)

I'm not certain it would make the duels any faster. It would certainly change the strategy.

[Neo Eternity]

Okay then, (and I'm just offering this as a devil's advocate, if someone already mentioned doing this in a previous post or thread, I'm not trying to take credit for it) a different way to play it might be to give all of the advanced spells (not mage spells) to everyone but limit the number of advanced spells that can be used during a duel by rank. So, an apprentice might be able to use 1, on up to 5 for a wizard. In addition, a Mage would be able to use one mage spell per duel, and the Archmage two. Emeritus would just get the honorific title and their picture on the tunnel wall leading from the locker room to the dueling rings (am I the only one who remembers Sam and Mike RPing that?).

This would certainly prevent mage spell abuse (and yes, I do agree mage spells could be abused. Nether ray every other round, could constitute an abuse, or NR/I/NR/I by an Archmage, but in some cases, it would just be funny). It would give apprentices the potential to use an arctic blast or meteor shower against turtling (although by no means guaranteed to always work, but nothing's guaranteed), yet still keep the present ranks in place and give perks for gaining rank.

If we did this, I might be in favor of allowing Keepers to use their EF spell once during regular duels, except that for the Archmage, it might be a little overbalancing, unless we still limit the AM to one mage spell casting per duel, plus EF. (Edit: This wouldn't give the AM any advantage against a Mage Keeper , which I wouldn't agree with, the AM should still have an advantage, maybe let the AM use two EFs in this case or something...)

I'm not certain it would make the duels any faster. It would certainly change the strategy.

I actually proposed a variation of this to Lem via PM. Since you've proposed this here, I'll propose my own version.

This is bascially the same as MP, so let's call it what it is: MP. I would actually choose to be more generous with MP for the lower ranks; I'd start an Apprentice out with 2 MP, and a Mage would have 7 MP. Then the Archmage would have 8.

Each spell in the advanced tier would cost 1 MP, obviously. Here's where I deviate from your idea; give the mage spells an MP cost as well, but higher than 1. I'm thinking 3 is good. And obviously, someone below the rank of mage would not be able to use the mage spells. They would still have to pick one upon reaching mage. This offers a different way of restricting the mage spells; it cuts into your capacity to use the advanced tier, and by making mages still pick, you don't take away AM or ME's advantages.

We've also thought about EF too. You compared spell progression to how it works in RPG games. Let's look to RPG games for this too, though I will reference more in the console variety. What is an EF but a super atttack? Limit Break, Overdrive, Mystic Arte, whatever you want to call it. These concepts often have a certain thing in common: desperation. So here's an idea to expand the usability of EF: allow a Keeper to use it against a non-Keeper if they are behind by a certain amount of points. My proposed deficit is 2.5 or 3. Keepers can still use it against other Keepers at any time.

So, bounce those ideas around. Whether or not this is something I actually wish to implement, I don't know yet. Maybe it can be refined to something workable, maybe it already is, maybe it's completely undesirable. Right now, we're pretty much running an experimentation labratory in this thread, so we have the freedom to throw out any idea we want, as we indeed already have.

[DUEL Topaz]

I really like the initial proposal.

>>When a duelist wins their 2 matches and can choose 1 of the advanced spells MS/AB/GF/RF, why don't we try making this choice non-permanant. Give the Enchanter a 1 after their WoL to denote they have access to 1 advanced spell. At the beginning of a match they just announce what spell they are going to use for the match. This trend can be continued up until Wizard when the duelist would all ready have all four. Sorceror a 2, Magician, a 3. <<

However a couple of valid concerns have been brought forth.

1. Keeper challenges

2. RoK

3. Time in duel set up and keeping up with what's been selected.


A change in selection by email and using what's posted in the standings seems the easy way of eliminating the concerns brought forth. I realize that takes away some of the proposed flexibility and at least some are unhappy with that.

Let's see what we can come up with to adress those concerns.

1. Keeper challenges
We'd have to adjust the challenge rules. I see several options.

A. The challenger selects spells firsts
B. The keeper selects spells first
C. The lower rank selects spells first
D. The higher rank selects spells first.
F. Both make their spell selection and PM or IM the official of the match prior to the start of the challenge and the official will make the announcement in the room.

2. RoK
As is the ring becomes just jewelry and bragging rights for rank mage and above. With the change it would be that for rank wizard and above. It would still be a nifty thing to have for any lower ranked dueler.
One thing to consider here could be if the ring permits the mage power selection to be flexible. I'm reading the original proposal only to have advanced spells being flexible, not mage powers.
If anyone has other ideas on how to keep the RoK something to go for, please post them here. Lem, RoK was originally your idea. What's your take on this?

3. Perhaps everyone selecting a spell or 3 before the start of every duel doesn't take as much time as I fear and perhaps keeping up with it isn't nearly as difficult for the callers and duelers alike either. Playtesting should give us a better idea.

[Soerl Lute]

The RoK was originally instituted for lower ranks, wasn't it? I guess Lem could answer that question. I fail to see the point of making the RoK viable for Mages. I think that's what I'm reading here.

Warlords can't win the Talon. Emeralds can't win the Claw. Why should a Mage get RoK? Making it useful for Mages is counterproductive.

If I'm mistaken someone let me know, but that's what I'm getting from this.

[Lem DeAngelo]

The RoK was originally instituted for lower ranks, wasn't it? I guess Lem could answer that question. I fail to see the point of making the RoK viable for Mages. I think that's what I'm reading here.

Yes, my intention was to create a tool that would serve to purposes:
1)) Assist lower ranks in climbing the ladder by receiving an extra adv spell.
2) Increase the amount of regular duels by providing a reward gained only by dueling well and dueling often (top bracket requires 6 duels per cycle. I envisioned that number being flexible if our average number duels per cycle increased).

Currently, the RoK grants its bearer access to 1 additional advanced spell. The bearer has to announce their choice of spell at the start of each duel. So if it's a Sorcerer with MS and GF, they can choose RF or AB as a 3rd advanced spell for that duel. The ring provides no benefit to anyone ranked above magician.

With Jake or Druid's proposal, the RoK would still grant the bearer an extra spell that they wouldn't normally have. It just loses the uniqueness that its bearer is the only person who can choose what advanced spell they want before the duel rather than only using the spells listed by their name on the standings.

So under Druid's proposal, a Sorcerer is +2 on the standings. If they have the RoK, they are a Sorcerer with a +3 on the standings. They can choose 3 advanced spells at the start of each match. RoK is still very effective in my opinion.

Under Jake's proposal, it's basically the same scenario except that all Sorcerers have access to 2 advanced spells that are listed on the standings just like they are now. Additionally all sorcerers can choose 1 extra advanced spell at the start of each duel. If a Sorcerer has RoK in this system, they would have 2 spells on the standings, choose 1 extra adv spell for the "try before you buy" effect, and choose the remaining adv spell due to the benefit of RoK. Jake's proposal eliminates one of the lower ranks and allows apprentices to choose an advanced spell at the start of each duel. That's why a Sorcerer is basically +4 here instead of +3 under Druid's scenario.

Personally, I think RoK is still valuable under either proposal. It's still allows an extra spell that a duelist would not normally have.

P.S. I'm still loving reading all of these ideas.

[Lem DeAngelo]

Emeritus would just get the honorific title and their picture on the tunnel wall leading from the locker room to the dueling rings (am I the only one who remembers Sam and Mike RPing that?).

Haha and let's not forget that Menolii had about a 10 minute intro every time she walked through the tunnel and sat in the ArchMage throne.

a different way to play it might be to give all of the advanced spells (not mage spells) to everyone but limit the number of advanced spells that can be used during a duel by rank.

After all of our discussions and having read some other opinions about what can be frustrating about DoM, I'm personally still hoping to find a proposal that opens the advanced spells to all ranks but still has a reward system for rank increase. I think it could address several of the concerns that have been mentioned. I've got a couple of ideas, but I'm going to sleep on them and hope they don't sound terrible in the morning. Ultimately I think the goal is to attract a larger player base. With more players there would be more lower ranks to duel each other and progress through the ranks/matrix at a pace that's been proven to work in the past.

[Soerl Lute]

Okay. I obviously misunderstood some of that. So if that extra rank is out the window, it's still beneficial to anyone under the rank of Mage. That's my only suggestion about the whole thing, honestly. I don't think the RoK should go to anyone who can't benefit from it. That should be something for the lower ranks to enjoy and be able to strive for.

[Scorched Druid]

I really like the initial proposal.

>>When a duelist wins their 2 matches and can choose 1 of the advanced spells MS/AB/GF/RF, why don't we try making this choice non-permanant. Give the Enchanter a 1 after their WoL to denote they have access to 1 advanced spell. At the beginning of a match they just announce what spell they are going to use for the match. This trend can be continued up until Wizard when the duelist would all ready have all four. Sorceror a 2, Magician, a 3. <<

However a couple of valid concerns have been brought forth.

1. Keeper challenges

2. RoK

3. Time in duel set up and keeping up with what's been selected.


A change in selection by email and using what's posted in the standings seems the easy way of eliminating the concerns brought forth. I realize that takes away some of the proposed flexibility and at least some are unhappy with that.

Let's see what we can come up with to adress those concerns.

1. Keeper challenges
We'd have to adjust the challenge rules. I see several options.

A. The challenger selects spells firsts
B. The keeper selects spells first
C. The lower rank selects spells first
D. The higher rank selects spells first.
F. Both make their spell selection and PM or IM the official of the match prior to the start of the challenge and the official will make the announcement in the room.

2. RoK
As is the ring becomes just jewelry and bragging rights for rank mage and above. With the change it would be that for rank wizard and above. It would still be a nifty thing to have for any lower ranked dueler.
One thing to consider here could be if the ring permits the mage power selection to be flexible. I'm reading the original proposal only to have advanced spells being flexible, not mage powers.
If anyone has other ideas on how to keep the RoK something to go for, please post them here. Lem, RoK was originally your idea. What's your take on this?

3. Perhaps everyone selecting a spell or 3 before the start of every duel doesn't take as much time as I fear and perhaps keeping up with it isn't nearly as difficult for the callers and duelers alike either. Playtesting should give us a better idea.

Not sure if I didn't see it or overlooked the portion, but how do the proposals in this thread actually involve changng the rules and challenges?

I did address challenging in my O.P. and that the current system punishes lower ranked Keepers because they can't choose their strategy until the night of the challenge when a higher ranked duelist relates what spells they are "dumbing down" to. Conversly the challenger has all the time up to that point to plot and plan what would work best against the Keeper's spells. I wanted to make that a two way street. Both sides going in blind on what the other would choose though any duelist can guess at what spells an opponent will pick based on what they favor in normal dueling.

Again, I'm jut curious where the concern for challenges came from in case I missed it. As for the duel time concern, that is settled with the PM, the Caller just doesn't close the window out, minimize it. And on tuesdays it is all done with PM windows anyway, just scroll up. PM'ing doesn't really require any effort on anyone's part.

______________________________

Neo,

I personally would like to play-test your Mana Pool idea a little bit first as it is very close to a Modifier system, however it would bring futher drawbacks to duels when Upper ranks are against Lower, especially say 8 vs 2. Most duels would then devolve into App. Matrix vs App. Matrix matches. The one way to counter that would be to introduce something different like a Drain system. You get the 2, 3, 4,5+ Pool then can make any defensive advantage be worth 1 point and the defender gets the point differences between the spells given to their MP.

I'll do my best to give an example to do justice to your idea and what I think would work.

You said Mage spells would be worth 3 MP. So, say an Enchanter has MS as their 1 MP spell. They duel a Mage who has Immolation which costs 3. In the duel window they click MS and make it a Drain Meteor Shower. Instead of half, they get 1 point and 2 points back to their mana pool In essence they get the MP they spent and a temporary one. This would only apply to defensive advantages A Drain MS hitting a MB would still be only 1 point.

Just a possibilty though like several I'm starting to wonder why there is such a drive to see DoM become so much like the other two sports. As Will's player said to me the other night "You don't see checkers players trying to make checkers more like chess."

As for the RoK topics, perhaps Mages and Wizards should be excluded from being eligible. They have all 4 spells so the ring doesn't do anything for them whatsoever.

ETA: Re-read my suggestion for MP and am going to be honest the only other option I could envision without squashing it would be to add Drain as a move to the Matrix and have it beat MB,FT,Armor, GF, RF, and NR for advantage only and the duelist that succesfully used it gets the Mana Points spent by the other duelist. ( .5 against 3 app spells, 2 adv, and 1 top)
______________________________

Rather than make a new post to every response I'm just going to make additions here that cover further reactions.

Will, Shadow, and Carley. You're right. Both ideas and suggestion overcomplicate things, however I did my best to keep the distance between Mage and Apprentice/Enchanter from getting expanded that much more via a mana pool or spell limitation. In RP, games (both tabletop and console) a real Mage is going to have 40-50+ spells versus maybe the 10 puny ones an Apprentice would have.

This may out myself, but when it comes to Magic, my #1 resource is "Elminster: The Making of a Mage". To me this novel really shows the true complexity in Magic as both an artform, occupation, story tool, and other aspects without overcomplicating things especially in its depiction that magic is as unique to each practitioner as a fingerprint.

Also, I am redesigning the Adept idea given the feedback.

[Shadowlord]

Druid, all I can say, reading that last post, is that it seems rather..complicated. Increasing the complexity of the sport is not going to attract a larger player base, in my opinion. Just wanted to toss that out there.

[Carley]

Druid, all I can say, reading that last post, is that it seems rather..complicated. Increasing the complexity of the sport is not going to attract a larger player base, in my opinion. Just wanted to toss that out there.

I agree. The previous post, and the MP idea Neo drafted up, strike me as overcomplicated and entirely unnecessary.

[Wulfson]

Comments on multiple posts.

I think Neo's Mana Points would make tracking the duel (making sure people aren't going over their MP limit) more complex for callers/duelists. Druid's suggestions for use of mana points would make tracking the duel much more complex. (From an RP viewpoint, the Archmage should have infinite MP for a duel). The devolvement of the duel into app vs app matches after the pools are expended is true with MP (and true with the idea I tossed out about limiting # of advanced spells per duel based on rank, which is why I said it would definitely affect the strategy), but also similar to the other sports in that once the fancies are used, they're gone.

Neo, the limiting of EF to only if you're behind is a bad idea. It'd be the Keeper crutch spell then. Either they get to use it, or they don't, there shouldn't be qualifiers. (And, I could see myself deliberately falling behind by a half point just so I could use it on someone).

Carley, as for the ART, it was an All Ranks tournament. How can you fault the higher ranks for entering? They were invited. We even all got the same spells. Now, if it was an apprentice only tournament and a bunch of us mages made up/used apprentice characters, you would definitely have a valid complaint then (even though it is within the rules). The issue there (and with all of the sports) is that we track the rankings of the characters, not the players, but since this is a roleplaying community and we're playing as our characters and not ourselves, that is pretty much the way it has to be. Any newbie in any of the sports could be a new player, or a new character for an old player. After a duel or two it's usually pretty apparent as to which is which, but until we have the experience of a duel or two, it can be a toss-up. So, if you're a brand new apprentice player and the mages are using mage spells on you indiscriminately, it may be because they've been burned too many times by undererestimating a new apprentice character brought in by an old player (which I admit, I've brought in my apprentice characters and challenged mages/archmages myself, so I probably contributed to this).

[Soerl Lute]

The problem with the ART is simply that, Will. It's every rank. I mean all of these changes are being suggested, but simple things that could help are being overlooked. Similar to what I said about RoK; What is the point to a Mage, Emertius, or the Archmage winning an ART? Wins? That's what regular duels are for. Bragging rights? Again, counterproductive.

The low ranks have nothing to themselves. An excellent thing that kept me playing DoM was the fact Enchanters could challenge for a Tower, as an example. Now that might seem like I'm contradicting myself by saying I liked doing something I could possibly compete against a Mage for, but hang on. That's for a title. Titles are a whole different ballgame.

There has to be something for low ranks to do that has no chance of being won by a high ranking character. Or even better something they can work *with* a high ranked character to accomplish. You can change the matrix up, do this, do that, but in the end I'm of the opinion it'll have little effect. If the sport wants more participation then the extra effort has to be made for new players to feel welcomed, have something to do, and not feel overwhelmed. This isn't RDI back in the 90's where there were tons of people just waiting to duel. DoM needs new blood and for that new blood to stick with the sport. Complicating things further is going to make it more unappealing.

[Carley]

Soerl pretty much said everything that needed to be said, albeit much nicer and more eloquently than I was going to say it.

I have more thoughts but can't think of an entirely polite way to put them for public consumption, so I'll keep them close until I can.

[Harris]

The problem with the ART is simply that, Will. It's every rank. I mean all of these changes are being suggested, but simple things that could help are being overlooked. Similar to what I said about RoK; What is the point to a Mage, Emertius, or the Archmage winning an ART? Wins? That's what regular duels are for. Bragging rights? Again, counterproductive.

The low ranks have nothing to themselves. An excellent thing that kept me playing DoM was the fact Enchanters could challenge for a Tower, as an example. Now that might seem like I'm contradicting myself by saying I liked doing something I could possibly compete against a Mage for, but hang on. That's for a title. Titles are a whole different ballgame.

There has to be something for low ranks to do that has no chance of being won by a high ranking character. Or even better something they can work *with* a high ranked character to accomplish. You can change the matrix up, do this, do that, but in the end I'm of the opinion it'll have little effect. If the sport wants more participation then the extra effort has to be made for new players to feel welcomed, have something to do, and not feel overwhelmed. This isn't RDI back in the 90's where there were tons of people just waiting to duel. DoM needs new blood and for that new blood to stick with the sport. Complicating things further is going to make it more unappealing.

The problem is the fact that the template was changed when it reached DoM. DoS has the WLT which historically is a Warlord only tournament. They also have the Talon, which is for Commoners to GMs, with the benefit(s) of winning being something that only helps lower ranks. DoF has the DQ, which is open to Emeralds and above only. Then there's the Panther's Claw, for lower ranks that carries the same benefit as the Talon, basically. Each of the other sports has a specific tournament for the upper ranks and for the lower ranks. DoM has... one for the upper ranks and one for everyone. The RoK is only gained through regular dueling.

I personally don't understand why a Mage or above would enter an ART. I didn't enter the last ART because I didn't need the prize. Prize aside, if I want to compete against lower ranks I have regular dueling. If I want to compete against Mages I have the AMT. If I want to compete in general I can challenge for a tower. So... Why enter an ART? The ART's obvious difference over other tournaments is the fact that you keep your wins. Who does that benefit? The struggling lower ranks. As Soerl said, it's counterproductive for the sport as a whole when Mages enter the ART.

The lower ranks need their own unique cyclic tournament to compete in. Either a modified ART that restricts Mages and above or something completely different.