Rules change proposal: Negative WoL

[Carley]

And the fun of the duels here today are due to the changes of the agonized duelists of yesterday. Many changes have already been made. Are people really not going to be happy until everyone starts out at Warlord/Emerald/Mage?

[Red urThorne]

I suppose the thing I'm still not getting is that Kalamere threw out some numbers and it showed a few people getting up to Swordsmen, and 2 (I think) getting to master at arms... that's *nothing* it certainly isn't handing anyone Warlord on a silver platter.

I suppose that's just my perspective and my personality. Even if it didn't do anything to bump me up in rank I'd rather have a negative record wiped once a month than every three.

I don't think I ever had a negative record for any length of time for any of my characters... maybe I'll ask Tass at some point to find that for me.

Beyond that... some of the ideas brought up sound pretty cool.

[G]

All I can say about this finally is that it only takes 2 wins to becomes a Swordsman, 3 more to become a Master at Arms, and then 5 more to become a GM. In the long run, it's really not that difficult. Sometimes things are harder for one person than they are for another.

Just re-examine your style of choosing duels after the next cycle reset and you'll probably improve your record.

[Kalamere]

So I'm working at it from time to time with Loxley. Who in the past was there with like 9 losses. Big hole, yeah? Now he's at 1 loss as I maintain even pretty well. This might not seem like a victory to anyone, but it is to me.

But he's only at the minus 1 now, because of cycle resets that have wiped a -10 and a -5 deficit from the record.

At what frequency do the resets, which already happen and already have helped several in this thread to reach Warlord status... at what frequency do you stop getting to say:

When I advance in rank with him, even if it's slow and painful? I want to earn it.

What's magical about 3 months that makes it ok and you can still say, hey I earned this. The DoM cycle is two months. Do they not earn it then?

[Neo Eternity]

One thing before I get to the main part of my post. Stop comparing this game to an MMORPG. They are completely different. In MMORPGs, almost all progress is made against NPCs that are made to be beaten by you. There is almost never any way to push back anyone else's progress. This game is player vs player, all the time. A win on your record is a loss on someone else's. Every time you further your own progress, you push someone else's back. I'm not complaining about it, but it is the reality of the sport, and I sometimes wonder if those who would compare this game to an MMORPG have forgotten that they are dueling other people, and not just some NPCs made for the purpose of being defeated. Remembering that you're dueling another person may actually do wonders in dueling well.

So, moving on from that, it seems that the negative WoL removal is not going to pass. I still support it, but I won't push it anymore, for now. What are other things we can do to make new players want to stay even if they dig themselves into a five loss hole at the beginning of the cycle? Not to mention, what kind of players do we want to stay? Players who only want to ascend the ranks and not RP may be less desirable, for example.

I would be in full support of a guide for new players. And I also would really like to see Houses come back, as long as I'm understanding their purpose right. Because that's further roleplay opportunity for new players. I think a lot of the appeal in the endgame is the roleplay opportunity in challenging for titles, and the top rank tourneys. Needless to say, these are unavailable to those not in the top rank. (Except in DoM; Keeper is acquirable from Enchanter on.) The Talon/Claw/All-Rank tournaments only come around once every three months (two in DoM) and only a few Barons utilize Squires. Those who complain about how much the low ranks get really don't understand how fleeting these opportunities are. Houses would be be a good way to create something more persistent, without "coddling" the low ranks as some people are worried about doing.

[G]

Those who complain about how much the low ranks get really don't understand how fleeting these opportunities are.

Fleeting? They're hardly fleeting. In Swords, Warlords get one tournament every cycle. They get to challenge Barons. Barons get to challenge Overlord.

Lower ranks get a tournament every cycle. If a Baron chooses to run their own tournament, they've got the opportunity there. They get an Overlord Grant. If they win the Talon, at the moment they get the opportunity to act like a Warlord and enter in that WLT that the WLs get. If they win that, they can challenge the Overlord.

Honestly, Lower Ranks have more opportunities for things of interest than the Higher Ranks get. I think the Higher Ranks have a right to want something more, if they choose to do so, now that I'm thinking of it.

The only thing that they're all equal in is the Madness tournament.

It's anything but fleeting, to tell the truth.

As to Houses, I'm all for them, believe me. I even tried to restart G's a while back, so that there could be competition with WRC. But that didn't really gather any momentum. Could have been due to the timing since there wasn't much participation going on then. Maybe I should try again?

And anyone can run a House, any rank, any player. It's really up to you how you want to run it. Have a House Champion based on Wins for the weekend, etc. Run interhouse Ladder matches. The possibilities are endless!

[Harris]

Those who complain about how much the low ranks get really don't understand how fleeting these opportunities are.

Fleeting? They're hardly fleeting. In Swords, Warlords get one tournament every cycle. They get to challenge Barons. Barons get to challenge Overlord.

Lower ranks get a tournament every cycle. If a Baron chooses to run their own tournament, they've got the opportunity there. They get an Overlord Grant. If they win the Talon, at the moment they get the opportunity to act like a Warlord and enter in that WLT that the WLs get. If they win that, they can challenge the Overlord.

Honestly, Lower Ranks have more opportunities for things of interest than the Higher Ranks get. I think the Higher Ranks have a right to want something more, if they choose to do so, now that I'm thinking of it.

The only thing that they're all equal in is the Madness tournament.

It's anything but fleeting, to tell the truth.

This. Fleeting? Hardly. There's the potential for 8 regular, cyclic tournaments for Commoners to GMs. The Talon, and 7 Squire tournaments. How is that fleeting? The upper ranks in DoS have more or less lost most of what made them unique in the first place. With the Overlord Grant Commoner to GM can challenge for titled rank, which only used to be available to Warlords and Barons. The WLT used to be unique to Warlords, now the Talon winner has the right to enter it. If anything, lower ranks have more to do than the titled ranks now. Which is why it's lost on me why people insist on wanting to make things even easier at the bottom. There's an insane amount of fun stuff readily available to the lower ranks in pretty much every single sport.

If it ain't broke, don't break it.

[Tormay Eludes]

If it ain't broke, don't break it.

Exactly. I think the system we have for WoL and rank and the opportunities we have for all the ranks are pretty close to perfect, but it wouldn't take much of a push in either direction, favoring low or high ranks, to break the system completely.

Throw too many bones to low ranks, and people will start asking themselves what's the point of gaining rank? Make it too tough to gain rank, and people will wonder if it is worth the effort.

Right now, low ranks (even those with negative WoL) have many opportunities to have fun and participate in cool events. It isn't easy to gain rank, but it isn't too tough, and the incentive to gain that rank still exists. If you ask me, that's perfect. Not too easy, not too hard, and there is stuff for you to enjoy no matter what level you are on.

[Neo Eternity]

Maybe I'm looking at all of this the wrong way, then. The last thing I want to do is de-value the top ranks.

And anyone can run a House, any rank, any player. It's really up to you how you want to run it. Have a House Champion based on Wins for the weekend, etc. Run interhouse Ladder matches. The possibilities are endless!

This is precisely why Houses would be awesome. I should get in touch with Tormay so that we can start doing more stuff with ours.

EDIT: Oh, hey, Tormay. Let's do more stuff with House deGorol.

[Carley]

Okay, well since a couple of you want to overlook points made to nitpick how they were made, I'll nitpick back.

MMORPG. What is that, in essence?

Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game

I dunno about the massive part, but last I checked these duels involve multiple players, take place online, involve role playing, and it is a game. So the comparisons and analogies are perfectly valid, and yes, I am fully aware of the difference between a PC and NPC.

On that note, the opening areas of WoW really suck now. People pushed for it to get nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and now monsters in opening areas don't aggro anymore. So I don't even have to swing my rusty sword at critters. I just waltz in, steal from them, wave, waltz out. No challenge at all.

[Neo Eternity]

Okay, well since a couple of you want to overlook points made to nitpick how they were made, I'll nitpick back.

MMORPG. What is that, in essence?

Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game

I dunno about the massive part, but last I checked these duels involve multiple players, take place online, involve role playing, and it is a game. So the comparisons and analogies are perfectly valid, and yes, I am fully aware of the difference between a PC and NPC.

On that note, the opening areas of WoW really suck now. People pushed for it to get nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and now monsters in opening areas don't aggro anymore. So I don't even have to swing my rusty sword at critters. I just waltz in, steal from them, wave, waltz out. No challenge at all.

You've completely missed the point I was trying to make.

[Capistrano]

You've completely missed the point I was trying to make.

Which was? I'm not sure I fully understood it.

[Emperor of Commoners]

Let the carnage begin.

I never got rid of the name.. couldn't. It was what I was known as for so very long.

So... lets see how things go and have some fun!





Who wants me in their house?

[Carley]

You've completely missed the point I was trying to make.

As did you when you decided to skip over various points to nitpick the analogy and comparisons used.

[Corlanthis]

Okay, meant to reply earlier but was sidetracked by stuffs.

Neo - I see nothing in your argument that suggests the comparisons to larger MMORPG's is invalid, and here's why. The Duels are *not* in and of themselves an MMORG, they are the PVP aspect to the MMO that is free-form Role-playing as a whole.

In fact, I can name you two big-name MMORPG's that do exactly what you say MMORPG's do *not*. Guild Wars and Warhammer online are both almost completely devoted to the notion of pure Player vs. Player.

But again, I point out that the Duels are not an MMORPG in and of themselves, they are just one facet of the overall FFRPG experience which *is* an MMORPG.

Now. I think possibly the original idea of the post is getting lost in the debate for/against more regular negative WoL zeroings.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea that you were going for ,Kalamere, was ways to increase New-Dueler retention right? The increase of Negative WoL zeroing was just *one* means to that end.

I really, really think more obvious FAQ's/Newbie information is something that will help with this. For example, I've been a member of this forum and community for how many years now? Fourish? I had no idea Jas even had those FAQ's posted. I would really like to see the Houses make a return too, just to foster the group environment. Even if the design isn't to teach dueling skills, knowing that you're not trying to fight your way out of a negative WoL hole alone is enough to stick around and try.