Rules change proposal: Negative WoL

[Wyheree]

To add briefly, I came very close more than once to throwing in the towel and quitting all three sports. I would win one or two, then lose 6, win a couple, lose 10 more, to the point where I didn't think I'd ever get even to Swordsman. Two things helped me: 1) Getting OOC help from people like Xeno, and G, and others. and 2) The tournaments, especially the Talon and the Madness. I understand why the system is as it is, and it was helpful to see all those wins vanish with every cycle, but why not add any Talon or Panther's Claw wins to the person's WoL? That shouldn't break the system, and it would be an incentive to get more lower ranks out dueling.

Whatever the Houses were back in the day, I would love to see them revived in some form. Were spars a part of it - matches that didn't count for the WoL? That's something else that might be handy - having a spar hour or two each week, so those who need the practice could get it and have the matches called, without having them count on the standings. Heck, I'll offer up part of my shift Sunday for spars, if that'll help the new people get comfortable without taking that huge hit on the WoL that almost drove me out.

[Harris]

Whatever the Houses were back in the day, I would love to see them revived in some form. Were spars a part of it - matches that didn't count for the WoL? That's something else that might be handy - having a spar hour or two each week, so those who need the practice could get it and have the matches called, without having them count on the standings. Heck, I'll offer up part of my shift Sunday for spars, if that'll help the new people get comfortable without taking that huge hit on the WoL that almost drove me out.

Practice dueling used to be the norm. People would show up early, practice, then an official would show up. People would then stay late and practice more after the shift was over. It's just one of the many incredibly simple methods anyone can use to help them get better in order to gain rank. It's no more complicated than finding someone to practice with and someone to call that knows or has access to the matrix.

If we take anything from this it should be to create an FAQ that specifically goes over all the methods a truly new player has access to if they're struggling with making rank, to alleviate some of that discouragement that comes with losing frequently at the beginning of your dueling career.

[Maranya Valkonan]

There are all ready multiple functions built into the game that help new comers advance, any more just waters it down more than is needed. Talon of Redwin, Ring of Klytus, Panther's Claw, All Ranks Tournament, Squire/Mentor program. It is one thing to offer tools that help the new players gain rank, it is another to entirely baby them and coddle the new players.

Point of order here.

In one of the last two recent so called lower ranks tournaments, the Talon was won by a Grand Master, which technically by the rules is the highest rank eligible to go for the prize. However, this tournament was set up so that the truly lower ranks could get an advantage in fighting, at least to my understanding. The +1 fancies bonus puts the Grand Master effectively at Warlord status.

In the last All Ranks Magic tournament, out of the fifteen participants, four were Mage Emeritus (Lem, Vinny, Xerzes and Wulfson), then there was the ArchMage (Sivanna), and three were Magician rank (Xanth, Shadow and Kalinda). The rest were either Enchanter (myself and Paradise, but Paradise is also a Tower holder) or Apprentice (Yejix and Twidge) or not even on the standings (Lume, Angelica, and Rock).

I make a point of this because in Magic, the higher ranks (Mage and above) have their own tournament, where the prize is challenging the ArchMage. Considering the top prize in the All Ranks Tournament was a rank increase, what is the point of someone with an already high rank competing in that tournament?

Granted there are some opportunities for the lower ranks to compete, in comparison with past years. I for one am grateful for what bones the lower ranks are thrown.

However.

The upper ranks have their own bones to gnaw on, metaphorically speaking. Please leave the lower ranks' bones alone.

My proposal for all the lower ranks tournaments is to limit the entries to the middle rank in each sport (Ruby, Master at Arms, Magician) and below, so as to truly fulfill the intent of these tournaments.

[Wyheree]

I second Maranya's proposal - that's partially why I withdrew from the last Talon tournament, as I was so close to Warlord, it didn't make sense for me to enter only needing 1 or 2 wins. I did, however, greatly enjoy having the Talon as a Commoner back in 2007 - I think I even picked up a win or two because of it. Having the cut be Master@Arms would make more sense, and make the Talon more attractive to enter. The same would also seem to apply to the Panther's Claw and the ART - at the very least with the All-Ranks, disallow entry by Mages, unless their spellset is reduced like when a Mage challenges a lower-ranked Keeper.

[G]

Re: Talon tourney winners.

When I get home I can do more thorough research. However just looking over the standings, Roderick is the 1st, possibly second, Grand Master to win the Talon tournament. The majority of all previous winners is strongly in the court of the Commoner. And there may have been One Master at Arms to win it. But, 22 Talons. Possibly 18 were Commoners. Will do more research when I get home, but judging by these estimates, the Talon is working fine as it is.

[Marc Franco]

I am totally against cutting GMs out of the Talon Tournament.

The reason the tournament was created was NOT to create an avenue into the WLT. The reason for the tournament was NOT to create a lower rank title. The reason was for fun. Pure and simple. The Talon tournament is the lower rank response to the WLT. That is why it's held a week or two after the WLT.

I had watched how amazingly fun the WLT was but was unable to participate in it. I wanted to bring that excitement and that fun to people who were not able to participate in the tournament. GMs cannot participate in WLTs. Some people end up at that rank for months and months.

Why should they be denied the fun of being able to participate in a tournament?

[Artemus Kurgen]

There are all ready multiple functions built into the game that help new comers advance, any more just waters it down more than is needed. Talon of Redwin, Ring of Klytus, Panther's Claw, All Ranks Tournament, Squire/Mentor program. It is one thing to offer tools that help the new players gain rank, it is another to entirely baby them and coddle the new players.

Point of order here.

In one of the last two recent so called lower ranks tournaments, the Talon was won by a Grand Master, which technically by the rules is the highest rank eligible to go for the prize. However, this tournament was set up so that the truly lower ranks could get an advantage in fighting, at least to my understanding. The +1 fancies bonus puts the Grand Master effectively at Warlord status.

In the last All Ranks Magic tournament, out of the fifteen participants, four were Mage Emeritus (Lem, Vinny, Xerzes and Wulfson), then there was the ArchMage (Sivanna), and three were Magician rank (Xanth, Shadow and Kalinda). The rest were either Enchanter (myself and Paradise, but Paradise is also a Tower holder) or Apprentice (Yejix and Twidge) or not even on the standings (Lume, Angelica, and Rock).

I make a point of this because in Magic, the higher ranks (Mage and above) have their own tournament, where the prize is challenging the ArchMage. Considering the top prize in the All Ranks Tournament was a rank increase, what is the point of someone with an already high rank competing in that tournament?

Granted there are some opportunities for the lower ranks to compete, in comparison with past years. I for one am grateful for what bones the lower ranks are thrown.

However.

The upper ranks have their own bones to gnaw on, metaphorically speaking. Please leave the lower ranks' bones alone.

My proposal for all the lower ranks tournaments is to limit the entries to the middle rank in each sport (Ruby, Master at Arms, Magician) and below, so as to truly fulfill the intent of these tournaments.

The Talon of Redwin was created as a tournament for all ranks under WARLORD. To give them a feel for how tournaments flow so they are not unprepared for the Warlord Tournies when they get to be in them.

The All Ranks Tournament. All Ranks are free to enter. The last I checked people LIKE competing in tournaments, and in DoM since Mages only have ONE tournament, the All Ranks is nice and being those advanced ranks really doesn't increase any odds, it actually encourages staggered rank dueling without the fear of losing rank for anyone. For each advanced spell Meteor Shower/Arctic Blast/Ghorst Form/ Reflect, there are FOUR of the basic 8 spells that beat each one for half or whole points.

It has all ready been brought up that pre-2004 there wasn't ANYTHING for ranks below Warlord/Emerald/Mage. It has been brought up in the other DoS rules discussion that there shouldn't be any discrimination in the dueling, the All Ranks Tournament is for anyone from Apprentice to the top spot. Excluding mages it is no longer the All Ranks Tournament. And the first person to win the All Ranks wasn't a mage at all and in fact beat a Mage in the final duel.

1st DoM ART

[Tasslehofl Momus]

Spent from 92 to 99ish as a commoner in Swords..

Spent from it's inception till this 09 as glass..

Spent from it's inception till.. uhh.. 04? as apprentice..


I can honestly say I'm one of the few who's been through most, if not all, the different incarnations of the three different sports. Now, that's not to say I've been through them all. I'm sure there are times that I took long breaks and things changed in one sport or another.


However, my point? Yes, I've thought that it would be nice to have a zeroing of the records more frequently would help. But *I* also found it more enjoyable to just play and duel and have fun and enjoy those I was dueling with. I'm sure there were many times in my career as the Emperor of Commoners where I could have advanced, had I so chosen too. However, I had different goals back then.. like being the first commoner baron.. (damn you Deathlord!).

Yes, today's dueling is different than back then. Hell, it's different from 5 years ago. But to me, even if they did zero things out on a monthly basis back then, I doubt it would have changed anything for me.

[Lem DeAngelo]

My proposal for all the lower ranks tournaments is to limit the entries to the middle rank in each sport (Ruby, Master at Arms, Magician) and below, so as to truly fulfill the intent of these tournaments.

Speaking in regard to DoM, I would be totally against this. The main reason I've gone back to being inactive outside of tournaments is because DoM is very heavy in lower ranks right now. So my only options are to beat up on low ranks in regular dueling, or hold out and play in tournament where I don't have to worry about causing a sorceror to drop rank and get discouraged.

And like Artemus said, the ART is for all ranks to interact and have fun. The mages have the AMT, but the lower ranks have the RoK (Yes a mage can win it, but they don't gain anything so they rarely accept it). I created RoK to specifically to assist lower ranks in rank climbing. As far as I know, the ART was primarily created for everyone to be able to participate in a fun tournament as equals. Gaining WoL from the ART is meeting a secondary objective.

[Artemus Kurgen]

My proposal for all the lower ranks tournaments is to limit the entries to the middle rank in each sport (Ruby, Master at Arms, Magician) and below, so as to truly fulfill the intent of these tournaments.

Speaking in regard to DoM, I would be totally against this. The main reason I've gone back to being inactive outside of tournaments is because DoM is very heavy in lower ranks right now. So my only options are to beat up on low ranks in regular dueling, or hold out and play in tournament where I don't have to worry about causing a sorceror to drop rank and get discouraged.

And like Artemus said, the ART is for all ranks to interact and have fun. The mages have the AMT, but the lower ranks have the RoK (Yes a mage can win it, but they don't gain anything so they rarely accept it). I created RoK to specifically to assist lower ranks in rank climbing. As far as I know, the ART was primarily created for everyone to be able to participate in a fun tournament as equals. Gaining WoL from the ART is meeting a secondary objective.

Minor side note. it is pure coincidence that Art won the ART.

[Corlanthis]

I think Harris had the best idea I've seen in here, so far.

There really does need to be a "New Duelists' FAQ", or possibly a reworking of the already existing Game Guides over on the sidebar.

A lot has changed that just isn't covered anymore, and giving New Duelists some idea of what can be expected during each quarter can do a lot to keep spirits up in the face of negative WoL.

I don't know that the negative WoL need to be wiped more often, but I would definitely like to see more information made more readily available to newer players. And even more consolidated for the older ones.

[Goldglo]

I think a FAQ (or whatever you want to label it) is a good idea. I know some ideas have been laid out already, but what information would people like to see or think is worthwhile having in there?

[Artemus Kurgen]

A "New Duelist FAQ" really wouldn't hurt things, and it might be a good measure to add that dueling the same 5-6 people over and over doesn't help one make rank. Dueling any and all does that. New duelists shouldn't be afraid to take on anyone no matter the rank. When I first came around in 04, the only ranks I had to fight were Warlord/Emerald/Mage. Really put the point at home that one of the best ways to get better is to compete against those that are better than yourself.

You (generic) can learn a lot by fighting advanced ranks, specially if you save the duel results. Write down the round by round happenings in the duel, after a while when you make comparisons you see what the upper ranks call "patterns", little traps that are laid to be walked into that link with other maneuvers.

[Marc Franco]

Jason/Deluthan/Bode actually put together the FAQ back when he was an admin. http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=80

Are you talking about adding to the above? What other information should be put in it? Do you want to move it somewhere?

[Harris]

Well, the FAQs in there appear to be 3+ years old. At the very least an update is in order. Possibly consolidate aspects of the FAQs under one general "New Duelist FAQ" and place the link in a more prominent area, possibly beneath the "Getting Started" tab on the menu. There should be a "Tips" section as well, not just for gaming but for the roleplaying aspect too.