Inquiry into the aspect of DoM

[Tasslehofl Momus]

I bring this to the public, as I want to know how you would feel about this. I already know how some feel.

DoM, to me, is too slow. *I* think that because of this, that is why many don't like to duel in Magic.

There are too many .5 rounds, and yes, even though the 'perfect defense' was removed, it can still be accomplished. I have proposed a reworking of the matrix, and that is something I am working on, but that is a project that will take quite a while, and is for another topic another day.


It was suggested to me, and I like the idea, of dropping the "Mage" status to 15 WoL and giving Meteor Shower as a primary spell (yes, that would mean that one of the DoM ranks would be dropped.) This would give Apprentices more of a chance to score against the 'defense' spells.

Now, I'll leave those who suggested the idea to explain and defend, and those who reject it to explain and defend.

Again, I bring this to you, the public, to see what you have to say. I am not the DoM admin, so I cannot implement this, but that does not stop me from wanting to know what you think.



Edited to add: This disuccion was brought up before, back in 2005. While, at that time, the matrix was still undergoing new changes, none the less, it was brought up. Here is the link if any wish to see the discussion. http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... c&&start=0

[Sylus Kurgen]

The current matrix is as balanced as it is going to be. We already know that the 20 WoL was impimented to separate DoM from the other two sports as is the working of Advanced spells in place of Fancies.

The only reworking that can be advised without breaking the matrix would be a re-evaluation of point values. Redo how much some spells are worth to cut down on the .5 rounds.

[Lem DeAngelo]

First, I think it's great that we are discussing this. I mentioned this to Tass earlier tonight so I thought I should post sooner rather than later.

DoM originated during a time when there was a constant influx of new duelers. I had my first duel at the end of a spring cycle in the 90s, and I made mage before the end of the next cycle. DoM was held on 3 nights, with 2 callers on shift and there were anywhere from 30-50 duelists available. 20 WoL was easy to acquire due to the perfect defense, the amount of duelists, and 3 nights per week of DoM dueling.

The perfect defense has been broken, but the amount of duelists is still much lower than it was in the past. I think it’s time we lower the mage rank to 15 WoL and give MS to apprentices to 1) speed up matches and 2) give apprentices a better chance to compete against higher ranks. Looking at our standings for the last few years, we rarely have more than 1-2 wizards. I think that’s because if you can actually get to the wizard rank, you’ve got enough spells to have an even chance of beating anyone. But if you’re still a magician or below, you may not have MS and AB, which most definitely leaves you disadvantaged. Of our last few duelists to make the rank of mage, I think the majority of them held the RoK, which allowed them to increase the amount of their spells (Sivanna, Neo, even Bran maybe?). That may have been a factor in pushing them past the Sorcerer/Magician gap. Of course they are very skilled duelists as well, but there’s still a commonality that they had RoK. Prior to RoK being introduced I think we went a year or 2 without any new mages at all.

Even with the perfect defense being broken, matches are still slowed by the fact that if an apprentice mage bolts, you can mind whip to null a mind whip or score a point on wizard blades and fear touch. If an apprentice fear touches, you can mage bolt and tie another mage bolt or score over wizard blades and mind whip. That’s the reason that I suggest Meteor Shower as the spell given to apprentices. MS beats Mage Bolt and dual scores against Mind Whip. It also scores a full point against SH and AR which should also speed up duels. Arctic Blast loses to three of four basic offensive spells, and still leaves the problem that if an apprentice mage bolts, opponents can mind whip. Or if the apprentice fear touches, the opponent can mage bolt. MS loses to Displace whereas AB beats Displace, but Foul Fog already scores a full point against Displace so I still think MS wins the argument as the best spell to speed up duels and give apprentices a better chance of playing against higher ranks.

There are probably some other things we can look at to speed up duels, but I think MS being added to the basic spells is the best starting place. If we decide this is worth trying, I think we should give it a few cycles and keep track of the average length of matches as well as the advancement of lower ranks. For what it’s worth, last week we averaged 10.8 rounds per duel but had 33% of our duels go to round 13-15. Comparatively, in the ArchMage Invitational all duelists were allowed to use the 4 advanced spells (but not powers) and the average duel was 10.4 rounds. I would even estimate that the Mage Powers also speed up a duel by 0.5 or less. I’m personally not interested in seeing the average rounds drop to 6 or 7 because I think that would really dumb the sport down. But I think an average of 9-10 round rounds would make a healthy difference.

I also agree with Tass that there are a couple of matrix changes that could be considered, but I think we should discuss that at another time so as not to introduce too much at one time.

I’ll also add that if someone were to ask me what one thing I would change about DoM would be, it would be that everyone could use every single spell. Ranks would still be based on WoL, but everyone could duel each other and not worry about losing spells. It’s hard to find a match sometimes because it’s bittersweet to beat a low rank. I want to win of course, but I also want everyone else to become mages so there will be more people available to duel with all of the spells.

That’s just my 2 cents.

[Neo Eternity]

I’ll also add that if someone were to ask me what one thing I would change about DoM would be, it would be that everyone could use every single spell. Ranks would still be based on WoL, but everyone could duel each other and not worry about losing spells. It’s hard to find a match sometimes because it’s bittersweet to beat a low rank. I want to win of course, but I also want everyone else to become mages so there will be more people available to duel with all of the spells.

I'm off to bed soon, but I wanted to at least touch on this before going to bed... if this were to occur, what would be the incentive for gaining rank?

[Lem DeAngelo]

The same incentive that keeps mages like you and I dueling. To be the best, see your name at the top of the list, get recognized for having the highest WoL, to have fun, etc

Or just like video games like Halo and Call of Duty. Your rank increases with wins, but that doesn't mean you get weapons that are going to give you any real advantage over opponents.

[Shadowlord]

While I'm relatively inexperienced at Magic, and in any event have not been an active dueler for some time until recently, I'd like to offer my perspective on this issue.

Magic, even back in the '90's, always had a smaller number of participants than DoS or DoF. To me, it's an RP issue at its core; more people seem to be comfortable RP'ing swinging a sword or throwing a punch than coming up with the more complicated concept of spellcasting, and I'm not sure that changing the matrix or allowing lower ranks more spells will change that.

For myself, one thing that I've always liked about DoM is the advanced spell concept and a higher WoL top rank, the Mage. It sets the sport apart, and I don't believe that changing those core basics is the way to promote more activity.

Changing the point values for certain things, to speed up duels, has some merit, but consider: are we seeking power duelers who want fast matches, or are we seeking a higher level of roleplay? I personally seek the latter.

Not sure if that helps any, but at its most basic, my stance would be change point values for moves, at most, and don't overhaul the entire system.

[Neo Eternity]

Magic, even back in the '90's, always had a smaller number of participants than DoS or DoF. To me, it's an RP issue at its core; more people seem to be comfortable RP'ing swinging a sword or throwing a punch than coming up with the more complicated concept of spellcasting, and I'm not sure that changing the matrix or allowing lower ranks more spells will change that.

This is the reason the DoM Rack was brought into existence. There are a good number of players who didn't feel comfortable with DoM's original way to be able to cast. Namely, step into a ring, and automatically know magic for the duration of the duel. For someone who is completely magically inept, to grab a wand or staff and swing it around randomly making magic come out, is much much more workable and believable then stepping into a ring and instantly knowing magic for the duration of the duel.

Also, back in the day, there were power-gaming problems thanks to the old way. People who didn't know magic would win a couple duels, and suddenly be casting meteor showers and arctic blasts outside of the ring. Granted, I wasn't around back then. But I have heard this from a few RoH veterans, and I believe them on good faith. This is why I'd actually like the old way of being able to fight in DoM to disappear, to be replaced entirely with the DoM rack.

And thankfully, we haven't had to use the old way in a long time. Almost everyone who participates in DoM right now are characters who already know magic. The only one I can think of right now who doesn't is Aja Bird, and she uses a wand anyways. By the time TdR rolled around, the DoM rack was all ready to go, and characters who had to cast for their team but didn't know magic used its resources. Nobody has used the old way since the DoM Rack came into existence. However, this is a different issue to be discussed in a different thread.

Of our last few duelists to make the rank of mage, I think the majority of them held the RoK, which allowed them to increase the amount of their spells (Sivanna, Neo, even Bran maybe?). That may have been a factor in pushing them past the Sorcerer/Magician gap. Of course they are very skilled duelists as well, but there’s still a commonality that they had RoK.

I would have to agree that the Ring of Klytus helped me quite a bit on my way up, in allowing me to get a feel for the advanced spells before actually learning them. Bran did indeed win the Ring of Klytus; he held it twice. I don't remember his rank when he won those times, though. And that is important; Though Sivanna does presently hold the RoK, she won it while she was a Wizard, and could not reap its benefits. Thus, that commonality is rendered void; she made it up to Mage all on her own.

Now, back to more presently pertinent business.

When Lem mentioned the idea about removing one of the ranks, he also mentioned something else to me that I was not considering when Tass told me about his desire to make DoM faster. DoM does not have Fancies. The reason DoS and DoF are so fast is because those with rank can convert half points to full points. And this makes a dramatic difference in the speed of a duel. Those of you with caller permissions... go check the shift reports for DoS. Look for commoner duels. Commoner vs. Commoner. Or heck, even Swordsman vs. Swordsman.

When you average these duels together, excluding those with duelists of higher rank, you'll find the average length to actually be higher than DoM's. Fancy-less duels in DoS take longer than DoM. This is why I don't think we need to put too much into speeding it up. This relatively balanced matrix is already faster than DoS's when mods aren't used. That's actually kind of an accomplishment.

As for ultradefensive fighting styles, or, as some refer to it in the video game world, "turtling". I've dueled against Tass a few times when he's been in a turtling mood. And he beat me each time. Guill once used the same tactics on me, and almost shut me out. He used the same tactics to defeat Kalinda in Lem's tournament. And I once turtled Thorne when he decided to duel Neo as a puppy, and beat him soundly. Does that mean the defenses are overpowered? I'm not actually very analytical, so I can't really tell you that. Guill almost turtled me again Friday night, but two Arctic Blasts were enough to convince him to stop. Meteor Shower isn't really that great of a spell to counter turtling; the only defenses it beats are Shield and Armor.

So, if defenses are a problem, what do we do about it? Find a spell to give to the apprentices? That may result in eliminating one of the ranks, unless one spell in the advanced tier is traded for a spell in the basic tier. I.E, one spell in advanced is moved down to basic, and one spell in basic is moved up to advanced. This would also result in disruptions concerning spell choices. The cleanest way to handle this would be to just have everyone re-pick their spells.

Perhaps exposing all of the advanced tier to everyone below Wizard? However, that would remove all incentive from gaining rank. Without incentive, that would make every rank that isn't Mage or Enchanter nothing more than steps on the ladder. It wouldn't matter at all if rank were gained or lost between Enchanter and Mage.

Perhaps matrix changes? While this would affect the least amount of changes upon the ranking system in place, the adjustment could be greater, depending on the type and extent of the changes made. The way moves interact directly affects how the game is played.

If the only reason we're changing the game itself is to appeal to DoS and DoF players, we should *not* be doing that. It's not that I don't want their participation--I *really* do, as many can attest--but there are other, better things we can do to get them to want to play. If we're going to change the game, it has to be because something is wrong with it. And perhaps something is; after all, just because DoM has existed so long and has already gone through some changes doesn't mean it's perfect.

I would like to see more people posting and weighing in on this.

EDIT: Corrected an embarrassing mega-typo. >.>;

[Angelica Rose]

Savria doesn't know magic persay. She is a jedi, so I've been adapting the spells to known Jedi powers as listed on http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

I do know that this Matrix has been adjusted in the past to eliminate the so called "perfect defense."

I have also heard the remarks about the DoM that Neo references. I actually think that the DoM has a bit more room for RP with the spells. Again this is something I have been working out with Savria and my demons. Then again With the different style of sword fight and hand to hand, really imagination is the key.

I've seen matches end very fast, I've also seen Matches go the distance in all three sports.

[Kajiya Crimsonheart]

I don't get out to duel much these days, but I'll gladly weigh in on the topic.

First off, Kajiya uses the 'old' method of DoM magic, in that he is completely non-magical outside of the rings. He does actually know how to fold origami, but not in weapons and attacks as he does in the rings. Mostly into puppies and cranes...

Anyhow though, I'll pick out a few things to talk about.

20 wins has always felt really far away (Currently standing at 10 WoL). To me, the question of 'Should Mage rank be dropped to 15 WoL?' is an easy yes. Feels like it would put it into shooting distance for more people. I'm a bad model, because I don't duel very often, but for example, if someone duels a few times a week, and usually averages 1 WoL per week, it's 5 more weeks to reach Mage then it would be to reach the top rank in either of the other two sports, not taking into account a bad week, etc. Is that a huge deal? I guess not really. But on the other side of things, do those extra 5 WoLs add anything to DoM. I can't really think of any advanatages to it.

Fiddling with the matrix. Could I see DoM being made faster by playing with the matrix? Sure. But I would love to see a 'proposed new matrix' before I make any call on something like that. In the meantime, I can't say either way.

Ranks and Spells. If WoL for Mage gets dropped to 15, we lose a rank, and push everything down one sounds fine to me. Either a freebie 'pick whatever spell you want' when you start, or a standard starting spell would both be cool in my book, or even leaving the first rank the same, and by the time you reach Mage, you only have 3 of the 'basic 4' bonus spells. Might add a little more variety, but I'm really not a number cruncher, so smack that idea down if there's a reason people need all 4 at top rank.

Is DoM slow? Yes. But (There's always a but). When I say it's slow, I haven't felt it's because of the game, or the matrix, it's because I generally type out three lines for my spells if I can. I know I slow things down a lot by doing it (I try to pre-type as much as I can to prevent it from happening, but still). That being said, if we look at just a time standpoint, DoM probably average longer than other duels because of added description time. Explaining my summoned origami demon tends to take me longer to type then a single line about a fist attack (I only dueled fists once or twice though, so I'm not exactly a universal duelist by any means). Do people sometimes give long and wonderful messages about their swords and fists attacks? Sure, I just think it happens less often. But what drew me to Magic in the first place was the wildly creative spell casting. Feel free to shoot this down though if the numbers say otherwise, I've got no length statistics to work off of.

Why is DoM the least populated dueling sport? Don't ask me, it's the only one I really have much interest in.

[Carley]

I honestly don't think any of the game mechanics needs to be changed. DoM is different than DoF and DoS. Period. Why try to change it to be more like the other two? Variety is the spice of life, and all that.

And I feel 20 wins to be Mage is more than reasonable. It's a balance to the fact that any rank over Apprentice can challenge for a Tower. Sure it's different than DoF and DoS in that they only require 15 wins for the highest rank, but one of the things that's always attracted me to DoM (even if I haven't done it in ages) was the fact that it was so very different than the other two sports.

[Tasslehofl Momus]

Please understand that my aspect on it is in no way trying to make DoM anything like DoS/DoF. I am looking at this sport directly as Magic and Magic only. DoS/F could quit existing in regards to how I am lookin at this proposal, and it would still not change the feel for it.

Look through the past standings and see how many 'Wizards' we have at one time, who are actively playing (at that time).

Sit and average the duels in one night, the number of rounds it takes per duel, and the time (even if the 2 min spell time were enforced) it takes per duel.

Talk to those who have tired DoM and have walked away from it, and those who just sit there and don't want to try it. Ask them why. Those that I have talked to don't like how long it takes.

But I'm just an old man. These changes would not benefit anyone but the apprentice level. It would, in truth, hurt and hinder those of more advanced rank.

[Soerl Lute]

Did my best to catch all the points everyone threw out here. If I missed something important I'll come back and edit my response.

Let me touch on what Shadow said I think that's one of the important things. I agree that much of the problem stems from RP related aspects. The DoM rack was an excellent idea. It solves a lot of problems about characters who don't know magic. Even so it's not going to appeal to everybody, but it provides a tool to overcome an RP obstacle for many characters.

Something Kajiya said struck me as a huge reason why DoM may seem slower than the others.

Is DoM slow? Yes. But (There's always a but). When I say it's slow, I haven't felt it's because of the game, or the matrix, it's because I generally type out three lines for my spells if I can.

DoM is often RP heavy. Let me make something clear before I say anything else. DoS and DoF can be as well. There's often great RP in those other duels and I'm not saying that isn't the case. With that out of the way, that's just how DoM has often been. There's tons of room to put imagination into RP for the spells and it was exactly what appealed to me to involve Soerl in it. It takes time to RP like that during a duel. There's the caller to consider and if the other player wants to RP a lot, but those are the duels I enjoy the most and remember. Duels where Soerl was pitted against opponents like Neo or Sivanna or Elly just off the top of my head.

About the WoL required to reach Mage, I don't think it needs any adjustment. It's attainable. The fact there have been so few new mages is because, until recent times, there haven't been many playing DoM. Now that more people are trying it, it's going to be easier for a character to move up in rank. I agree with what L said regarding ranks. DoM is the only dueling venue where someone can challenge for a position at 2 WoL. 2. That's nothing. In fact, I did that with Soerl when he was the rank of Enchanter and actually won the challenge. I find that very encouraging.

Let me move onto to turtling. I'm not sure what to think of that, but I don't agree about a perfect defense still being attainable or nearly obtainable. Each of the basic spells can counteract *something* advanced. I admit with the amount of choices a higher ranking duelist can have vs. a low rank can make that situation be pretty daunting.

It brings me to a suggestion I have for that.

Let's say we have someone at the maximum rank of WoL. Mage. If someone is a mage and duels someone of a very low rank, Apprentice or Enchanter let's say. Given the difference in rank a Mage would be able to accept what would be... a "practice duel" for lack of a better term. If the Mage agrees to duel the apprentice with only basic spells (or one advanced spell in the case of Enchanters) then a loss won't count for either of them. If the Mage wins, they get no win. It was practice for them. If the apprentice wins, they get that one WoL for their record. It encourages learning how to use the basic spells and one advanced spell should Enchanters be allowed. The problem with that is the Mage gets nothing and there's not a whole lot of people ranked as a Mage. Personally, not getting anything doesn't bother me. It might bother others of that rank, I'm not sure. That's why I bring up the idea.

Anyway, those are my thoughts thus far. I'm glad this was brought up.

[Neo Eternity]

Let me move onto to turtling. I'm not sure what to think of that, but I don't agree about a perfect defense still being attainable or nearly obtainable. Each of the basic spells can counteract *something* advanced. I admit with the amount of choices a higher ranking duelist can have vs. a low rank can make that situation be pretty daunting.

When I talk about turtling, or perfect defense, I don't mean basic spells vs advanced spells. I mean the potency of ultradefensive tactics. Using the six defensive spells; SH, AR, DP, FF, RF, and GF; repeatedly, or even exclusively.

[Soerl Lute]

Gotcha now, Neo. Thanks for the clarification. I quite obviously didn't get that part. I still really am not sure what to think about it. I know the defensive moves are pretty powerful, but I think there's ways around that. Unfortunately all the ways I can think of actually *would* add to the amount of rounds in a duel. An overhauling matrix change still seems very drastic to me without knowing if the slowness in duels (in regards to rounds) is actually in why people don't want to do DoM, I can say that.

[Lem DeAngelo]

I love seeing all of the feedback and ideas. Here's another idea I thought of. If one of the problems slowing down matches is turtling, but we don't want to drop mage rank to 15 WoL and give apprentices an extra spell, then we could add a new spell to the basic apprentice spells. The spell could be called Dispel and it would beat the defensive spells of Displace, Shield, Armor, Foul Fog, Reflection and Ghostform. It loses to every other offensive spell. It would help out against turtling, balance out ghostform a bit more, and it should be an easy addition to the matrix as it is 50/50 with basic and advanced spells, but loses to the powers. I wouldn't mind seeing Dispel beat Immolation, but only if Immolation beat Ghostform so that Immolation wouldn't be worse than it already is.

And for all of you historians out there, Dispel was one of the original Mage powers back in the day. Nether Ray and Immolation replaced Dispel and Mana Wave around the time that Foul Fog and Fear Touch were incorporated.

Just adding another idea to the pot.