A (Minor) Rules Proposal

[G. Iulius Fortis]

You know, I'm not one for wanting to change the protocols of dueling, but it kinda seems like a bad idea that a Renegade Baron cannot be refused in the case of intercessions and tests. It goes against the principal that a duelist should ALWAYS have the option of going it alone.

To that end, I'm proposing a few minor changes to the rules:

1. Since the rules do not explicitly legalize it, Renegade Barons should be given the right to intercede for the Challenger when the Overlord steps in for the Loyal Baron. It is not technically legal at the moment, although in practice, it is usually allowed, and no one has cried foul on account of the Renegade stepping in... yet.
2. In the case of a Renegade Baron interceding for a Challenger, in the case of an intercession (either Loyal for Overlord, or Overlord for Loyal), the Challenger retains the right to refuse and go it alone. If multiple Renegade Barons declare their intent to intercede for a Challenger, the first Renegade Baron to declare their intent has the right to intercede. Again, the Challenger has the right to refuse and go it alone - they may not choose between the multiple Renegade Barons.
3. In the case of a Renegade Baron interceding for a Challenger who has been Tested by the Overlord, the Challenger retains the right to refuse and go it alone, provided the Challenger has not selected a Warlord Champion to face the Test. Should the Challenger select a Warlord Champion, then a Renegade Baron is free to intercede and may not be refused by the Challenger.

I admit, I do not see the right to go it alone being selected by many people, but there is a select few who value the privilege of taking matters into their own hands, and it seems a shame to have that idea ripped from them.

I'm leaving a poll on this post just as an attempted gauge of public opinion on the matter.

[DUEL Tass]

No.. it's not official, unless G/Admins decides to say that my post is... but I feel that this is a good time to point everyone towards the DoS FAQs Challenging 101 ([url]http://www.ringsofhonor.org/forums/view ... hp?t=19120[/url]). Specifically:

[quote]CHALLENGING 202 -- INTERCESSIONS

Definition-- An intercession is said to occur when a duelist (the "champion") steps in for the defending Baron or Overlord, in which case the challenger must first defeat the champion before going on to duel the defending Baron or Overlord. Under certain circumstances another duelist may step in for the challenger: If this duelist defeats the champion, the challenger may go on to face the defending Baron or Overlord; if not, the challenger must first face the champion.

Note: The best-of-three format cannot be used if an intercession occurs.

There are three different types of scenarios in which intercessions can take place.

I. A Warlord Challenging a Loyal Baron

The Overlord may intercede on behalf of the Baron without consent from the Baron. Only a Renegade Baron may step in for the Warlord, and may do so without the Warlord’s consent. The first Renegade Baron to express intent to intercede takes priority. [/quote]

As any of the DoS Admins could tell you, I have combed over the rules extensively the past month or two. And, while I know there are things that might have happened before, unless they are documented and can be proved, the Rules and FAQs are the way things are, at this time.


In regards to this Poll, Guill.... as a player (not an official), I cannot support your choice. As I stated to you in IM's, it is the Renegade's right to step in when an Overlord decides to intercede (or Test the challenger to the Loyal). That is part of what it means to be Renegade.

If you do wish to 'go at it alone', my suggestion is to not challenge a Loyal, or if you do, perhaps you should talk with the Overlord and/or all Renegade Barons and work something out between them.


((Again, this is my personal stance.. not Official))

[G. Iulius Fortis]

Perhaps it might mean that to be a renegade to you, but I do believe, like I said, that anyone should have the right to take the challenge on by oneself - that a conscious choice to face the Intercession oneself should trump the Renegade's choice to intervene. It is more honorable to face a challenge head-on by yourself than to let someone else do the dirty work for you.

[Tasslehofl Momus]

Do not confuse honor with what I am saying.

I agree that it might be more honorable, but rules are not always based off what is honorable or not.

As we discussed in IM's, if what you propose goes through, then any challenger should have the right to refuse someone else from stepping in. Yes, any. That includes Loyals. However, it could be viewed that since the baron IS loyal, they have already given their consent to the OL that they may step in on any challenge laid against that Loyal.

On the flip side, if that were true, then by declaring themselves Renegade, they have already given consent that they have the right to step in against the OL at any appointed time in which the OL interferes.

If a Renegade is refused their right to step in against the OL, what, then, is the point of being Renegade? What you now have are Loyal and Neutral... and no Renegade.

[G]

The"Dueling" posted in the DoS FaQ's by Deluthan are official rules.

Renegades will remain having the right to intercede on a test of worthiness/intercession with or without the Warlords consent. Renegades have had this right since the Baronies were started, and they always will. There would be no point in being a Renegade Baron if they could not do this.

I'll say it here. If you don't like a Renegade Baron stepping in against your wishes, Challenge that Renegade Baron.

[Ticallion Carter]

I just wanted to chime in here as well, since I voted 'No' and I kind of felt the need to explain why.

I couldn't agree with what Tass' and G's players said more. An Overlord has the right to intercede on behalf of the Loyal Baron at any time, with or without the Loyal Baron's consent. This makes sense to me, because (as was said) the Loyal sort of gives implied consent to this by aligning themselves Loyal in the first place. Why would people possibly align themselves Loyal? To support the Overlord is a good reason. But, to gain protection of the Overlord is probably part of the reason as well. In that same vein, why would someone align themselves Renegade? I think the primary reason is because they oppose the Overlord. What better way to show your opposition than to completely thwart the Overlord's intercessions for Loyals at every turn? Those are the "perks" to being either a Loyal/Renegade Baron and to being the Overlord. What you suggest as a rule change eliminates those "perks" and I think it eliminates another RP element to play with. Plus, as already was mentioned, it makes aligning with the Overlord a little bit pointless.

Bottom line, I like the fact that the upper ranks contain some part of the "politics" game. It gives players another tool with which to play around and develop storylines and their characters. Eliminating even what you might think is a small part of that limits players' choices. Besides, there are viable alternatives if your character disagrees with being interceded for. As a Loyal Baron, you can change your alignment to Renegade and challenge the Overlrod. As a challenging Warlord (assuming you don't win the Barony you're challenging for) you can challenge the interceding Renegade Baron in your next challenge.

[Marc Franco]

Voted no for the reasons Tical's player mentioned.

It's a perk of being a baron and makes things incredibly interesting. I see no reason why it can't be handled completely IC.

[Jaycy Ashleana]

Perhaps it might mean that to be a renegade to you, but I do believe, like I said, that anyone should have the right to take the challenge on by oneself - that a conscious choice to face the Intercession oneself should trump the Renegade's choice to intervene. It is more honorable to face a challenge head-on by yourself than to let someone else do the dirty work for you.

Is this an IC or an OOC post?

How does honor come into the game OOC?

[Napoleon Bonarat]

Nope can't agree with you, Guill. The perq of being loyal to the OL is getting them to intercede on the baron's behalf if challenged. The perq of being a renegade is having the opportunity to step in on behalf of the challenger of the loyal baron if the OL intercedes.

[G. Iulius Fortis]

How does honor come into the game OOC?

OOC, maybe it doesn't. I was just stating that I find it a bit more noble to go and do something yourself, rather than have someone else do it for you.

I still think that a challenger should have the right to say no. Granted, I don't expect many to take that opportunity, but it should be a vaild option.

[G]

I still think that a challenger should have the right to say no. Granted, I don't expect many to take that opportunity, but it should be a vaild option.

Should be, to you. Should not be, to everyone else.

That's not a rule that is going to change. Sorry you don't like that decision, but it stands.

[Leuni]

If a Renegade is refused their right to step in against the OL, what, then, is the point of being Renegade? What you now have are Loyal and Neutral... and no Renegade.

Notes from the desk of a professional (rp) newbie (RoH):

Disection break down.

Lawful, Neutral, Chaotic....

Loyals, Neutrals... Renagades.

Yep, that looks pretty balanced there to me.

Renagades Rock! Gives that element of surprise I think. Way important to have that option for RP so it balances out the potential in the game. Yep, Bottom Line from what Tic said.


P.S.
Tass, hun, thanks for the link. I was just thinking about those anyway. Awesome help there, too. You Rock!

---> DoS FAQs: Challenging 101/202 - Challenging/Intercessions

[Delahada]

I guess I'm the only one who agrees with Guill

note to self: never challenge loyal barons if you want to do it yourself.

what if... what if the whole point of challenging a loyal is the hope that the overlord will intercede?

as one of my other friends tells me - sal runs by his own moral compass. he has a code of honor that isn't quite like other people, but he is honorable. choosing not to try to kill jaycy in his challenge match against her, switching swords, is an example that only a few people really understand about him. but let me put it this way...

pretend sal's a warlord (which someday he hopefully will be), and pretend anubis is still overlord at that time. sal has been given a challenge grant twice now in his career, and both times he's gone after anubis. the second time he had to change his pick, though, because anubis went on to become overlord. he didn't choose jaycy because she's a renegade. he chose her for strictly personal reasons.

but let's say... some day when anubis is still overlord and sal becomes warlord, maybe he decides to challenge again. and because he likes fighting anubis so much (since he's a psychopathic masochist), he challenges a loyal in the hopes that the bastard does intercede.

those who know sal understand that he has no interest in actually earning and holding a barony. his only reason for challenging is the sport, the fun and the sick challenge of getting his butt handed to him in a ring. so if he did challenge a loyal baron, and anubis interceded, and then some renegade stepped in because he or she wanted to champion him and fight anubis themselves... he'd be pissed. in fact... right then and there chances are he'd forfeit his challenge. no point to it for him if he can't fight who he wants to fight.

and that's my opinion from an ic standpoint

[Leuni]

so if he did challenge a loyal baron, and anubis interceded, and then some renegade stepped in because he or she wanted to champion him and fight anubis themselves... he'd be pissed. in fact... right then and there chances are he'd forfeit his challenge. no point to it for him if he can't fight who he wants to fight.

and that's my opinion from an ic standpoint

Challenging takes thought both IC and OOC. Why not use the opportunity to include roleplay with said renegade in preparation for the challenge and maybe work out some deal so they wouldn't step in... or let them step in and then challenge them later if they win, or deal with someone else who can step in on them for you. I'm new at all this kind of political pull.. here that is.. and I can see all kinds of opportunities anyone could use to their advantage both IC and OOC. The rules seem clearly for everyone, not a select few catering to their characters alone. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, but I don't really think so.

[Tasslehofl Momus]

Sal, what you propose is, in all essences an IC thing, and that would totally be an awsome thing to play out.

However, the proposed change is a total OOC based thing.

As I stated earlier, if you wish to face the OL when he intercedes and 'do it alone', I suggest that you talk with the OL and/or all renegade barons before hand and try and work out something OOC behind the scenes. However, you do have to be prepared for those Renegades to say no, they are going to step in, because, like Jaycy has with Anubis (purely as an example), they have their own IC reaons for doing it.

It would be kind of.. well.. not cool to make a Renegade change their habit, or their reason, because you don't want them to do what they want to do... which in this case would be to step in against the Overlord who has interceded on behalf of a Loyal.