Justice

[Napoleon Bonarat]

Cas, why would Face choosing another baron to challenge have arrived at a different outcome?

[Artemus Kurgen]

I had a brief conversation on this with Cass and what he means is that another Baron might have overlooked the deadline issue and let the challenge go through, where as ICly, Jaycy is the type of character to hold her opponents to the letter of the law and on an OOC level such actions can be a means to stir up fun controversy and get people posting.

I'm not answering for him, but I hope that helps clear things up Nappy.

[Max Blue]

I don't understand how my name got brought up in this, but please don't use me to further your own cause.

[DUEL Erin]

I look at it this way:

What would the government do if it found out that something they were using to facilitate a service was broken? They would extend the deadline on that for all people. They'd have to. Just because it is fairly certain that Face did not send a request on time doesn't mean that he could have. A reasonable person can see that. It's really hard to attack that IC, because it's an OOC matter.

It's a hard call, actually, because we can prove that Face didn't try, or at least from what I know he admits it. And while the standings not going up was unfortunate, it hasn't kept challenges from happening in the past. I think having a council of people look at it helps mediate bias. I don't see how it doesnt.

Xeric however, should have petitioned before the day of the challenge. It is not fair to Drey that the tool didn't work, it's not fair to Drey that they couldn't find a time, and then for him to clear time in his life for a challenge and to not have one is also unfair. Emergencies happen, but this was not an emergency. And if Xeric had shown up and declined to duel IC, this could have been dealt with IC and with a scene to play out may have felt less like a slap in the face to everyone.

Just my two cents.

[Face Loran]

Okay, I haven't responded to this in a while because I realize it isn't going to do anything to make this place better. Here are a couple bottom line things to learn from this:

1. Rules need an overhaul. This isn't 1994 anymore.

2. People need to get on the ball on posting shit when its done so that results to a damn tourney aren't posted a month later...

3. Once admins make a decision that should just be it and it should always be a fair and equal one to all.

Moving on from that. I won't be investing time into DoS any further. There have been countless times things have happened in the past that have upset people and this is the first time ever I have been involved, but I understand why they were bothered.

To claim that I didn't try is a joke. To claim I know all the rules... Joke. I have been a duelist for YEARS, I admit. I also was gone for about 2 years. I followed what I felt was ettiquette/rules about the challenge after the tourney. Honestly thought I couldn't challenge until the results were posted. Spoke to several people asking them if that is how it was afterwards. Figured I would ask Gnort the exact rules because when I flipped through the rules on the site all I saw was the results for a tourney for a title didn't take effect to until the tournament results/standings were posted. So don't make assumptions about my acts.

People knew the night of the tourney I was going to challenge Jaycy because she was the senior baron who hadn't been challenged in over a year and last I checked people enjoyed dueling and being challenged/challenging. That changed obviously.

Regardless, as I stated in a previous post earlier. At this point I have realized the only place that has gotten things right just about all the time is in DoF. Always evolving and doing what they need to do to become better. DoS and DoM should take more hints from them, and this isn't a disrespectful comment to admins. I admire all you do. It sucks to have to run this stuff. Bottom line is though that this place is dying. There needs to be more reform to make things fit the times and there needs to be more income than expense here (incoming players vs going). Otherwise this place will die soon.

Last post on here, need to talk to me I have AIM with BRWrestler112.

[Artemus Kurgen]

This issue is done with and has been resolved as best as it can be by the administration. I vote this thread be closed to prevent further debate that could potentially only make a bad set of circumstances worse.

[Rakeesh]

I look at it this way:

What would the government do if it found out that something they were using to facilitate a service was broken? They would extend the deadline on that for all people. They'd have to. Just because it is fairly certain that Face did not send a request on time doesn't mean that he could have. A reasonable person can see that. It's really hard to attack that IC, because it's an OOC matter.

It's a hard call, actually, because we can prove that Face didn't try, or at least from what I know he admits it. And while the standings not going up was unfortunate, it hasn't kept challenges from happening in the past. I think having a council of people look at it helps mediate bias. I don't see how it doesnt.

Xeric however, should have petitioned before the day of the challenge. It is not fair to Drey that the tool didn't work, it's not fair to Drey that they couldn't find a time, and then for him to clear time in his life for a challenge and to not have one is also unfair. Emergencies happen, but this was not an emergency. And if Xeric had shown up and declined to duel IC, this could have been dealt with IC and with a scene to play out may have felt less like a slap in the face to everyone.

Just my two cents.

I think that this is a good post, and that everyone should read it. If something is broken, the government extends the deadline and tries to fix it. If you are having troubles getting duelists through the doors, if you are watching the game that you are in charge of slowly die, then why would you not try to get everyone together - and say, look guys, this has been a mess ... but we can't afford more messes right now? What can we do to appease each challenger and each defender?

I'd want as many challenges to happen as possible, and I'd be advertising the challenges everywhere - to get as many new players in to watch as possible. Challenges are great roleplay events, and ROH is in need of roleplay. Being a hardass only works to a point, and it doesn't work when everyone knows that there are only a handful (or less) of officiated duels a week. You are getting to the point where there will only be challenges once a season, and as result of the warlord tournament. You will get to the point where you cannot even fill up your Baronial Council (once the inactives get stripped, or lose their mantles). You will get to the point where you will have the exact same handful of remaining Warlords taking all of the Baronies (and then you will have no warlords for tournaments or challenges at all).

Something. Has. To. Give.

[Xenograg]

Beside the issue of rule changes, I think the rules could use some clarification/editing. This is something we can all assist with. If there is a sentence or paragraph that does not read properly to you, you are probably not alone. Let us get it marked and corrected/improved.

[Marc Franco]

Something. Has. To. Give.

Yes, it does. Does this mean that you're willing to roll up your sleeves and become a part of it? I'd love to sign you up!

[Damien Mortis]

"...last I checked people enjoyed dueling and being challenged/challenging. That changed obviously. "

I don't think it's fair to say this. I believe the protest was raised more as an IC issue than an OOC issue (I could be wrong?), and don't believe not wanting to be challenged is an issue. Normally if someone doesn't want to be challenged, they are afraid of losing their title. In this case, the protest letter actually delivered the Dockside ring to the Barons (obviously an IC case.)

Besides, I'm sure that a ruling in Jaycy's favor would actually lead to more challenges towards her, as there would definitely be some outrage. Something like this could actually be good for our game, but all of the OOC context put a quick damper on that.

"I'd want as many challenges to happen as possible"

I also don't think this is a just reason to validate the challenge. I too agree that challenges are the best part of this game, but to overstep rules to have more of them isn't fair. In the past, rules have been changed to make challenges easier, and that could be done, but not retroactively.

"What would the government do if it found out that something they were using to facilitate a service was broken? They would extend the deadline on that for all people. They'd have to. Just because it is fairly certain that Face did not send a request on time doesn't mean that he could have."

Though I see your point here, the main difference is that if the government had a system break, thousands or millions of people could be affected depending on the situation. An extension is their quick fix, because it would be madness to deal with that many individual cases. Here we had only two people affected, and the scenerios were different. It is easy enough to separate them and treat them completely independent of each other. Despite the fact that Face "could" have been affected by the glitch, he wasn't, and that fact should not be ignored.

Just my quick two cents, since I've been quiet but for the Baron's council deliberations.

[Face Loran]

"...last I checked people enjoyed dueling and being challenged/challenging. That changed obviously. "

I don't think it's fair to say this. I believe the protest was raised more as an IC issue than an OOC issue (I could be wrong?),

Based off of IM's I received I would definitely say you are wrong there.

[Rakeesh]

No, I am not willing to step up and put time and work into being part of fixing the problem. That is G'nort's job. I've never been asked by G'nort to do anything of the sort in the past, though I have been encouraged (putting it kindly) to not be involved with G'nort. Also, Gangstar, it seems odd to me that you would write your post using that "nick", when most people here likely know exactly who you are. But let me stick to my original point, because I am not bitter, and do not want that to be the focus of what I have to say.

There's a cause and effect to why players come here and why they leave. When I came here a few years ago, I brought players with me from other games. I will not go into the reasons why they became jaded, but I will say that I am fairly certain that I was never personally responsible for pushing players away. It's not my way. I am not a "problem player", beyong the problem of being an advocate for improvement and change. I think most players would say that I am very respectful and even easy to get along with.

I didn't write my last post to take up someone's side, or to call anyone out. I'm just reading these forums and amazed that there would be such a nit-picking about rules in what was obviously a botched set of challenges from everyone involved, players and admins.

Look. Challenges bring in new players and bring the community together in a large way. You have next to nobody dueling, currently. Without duels, you won't have many challenges. You are close to the point where there will be no challenges at all because the handful of players left, with rank enough to challenge, will be holding all of the Baronies already. The need for challenges is greater than the need for strict rules. The need for roleplay and bringing in players is greater than egos (player-side or admin). I play an RPI which is far more roleplay-indepth than this game, and even they understand that retroactive changes are sometimes necessary for the health of the game as a whole - though nobody likes the idea of having to go back and change history.

I'm not griping about it, and I'm not upset. I'd love to see things change, players to be happy, and the duels to be active again. If it really happened, I'd probably even come back. However, I'm not willing to "roll up my sleeves" and try to put in my time to try to bring players back. Nothing I could do, or have done in the past, will keep players here if they do not believe that DoS is being ran properly. What I am doing, is just speaking the truth, in a mild effort that perhaps someone will look at the state of things and attempt to assess how it came to be so.

PS; Obama '08.

[Marc Franco]

I am using this SN for this project because it is the one that I play the most these days (in fact it's the one I check the message boards with), it's the one that I'm active in the RDI under, and because many of my ideas surround it. To many people my identity is a secret and it's part of the fun for those people. I've been asked not to give away my identity by quite a few people in the RDI.

Marc Franco and the blog were created to help bring people from the RDI to RoH. The original goal was to introduce the characters to the RDI players and make them want to play here. I recently had a renewed sense of returning to that original purpose with the blog.

Other than that, I try not to waste what little free time I have these days on things that aren't constructive so I have nothing further to respond to. I merely felt I needed to explain the use of this SN because I don't want vague accusations to bring a halt to my sincere desire to put aside past issues with people in order to attempt to start some sort of positive momentum here.

Positivity BREEDS positivity. It may just be a small rules change today, a couple new duelers the next day, and a roleplaying event the day after that but that's how major change starts. Maybe that breath of new air may revitalize the admins and maybe some idea that has been on the back burner will come to fruition. Maybe some people who've gotten burned out and left will see the new energy and be drawn right back in. ....And maybe it won't work but I think it's worth giving it a shot. It's not the answer in and of itself but I believe it's one of the answers. I want to do my part.

[Rakeesh]

Fair enough, Gangstar. I don't think it's overly important as to dealing with this thread, taking jabs. :p

I tend to be long-winded when I am drinking caffeine, so let me address G'nort directly, in a reply to something he said earlier in this thread.


G'nort's Question:

Since when is doing the Right thing breaking the rules?

My Answer:
When your implementation of the rules is chasing away the few remaining players in DoS.


I'm on friendly terms with people on both sides of the argument in this case, and I all I have to say to the -players- in this matter (including those on the Baronial Council) is this:

Boo on you, anyone who attempted (for IC reasons or OOC) to hold either of these contests in forfeit. The game you play on -needs- challenges, and that is more important than using the rules to avoid challenges, or to allow others to avoid challenges. Yay on Amaltea for trying to make the players happy.

I also played the character Vanion Shadowcast (anyone knowing him would know that he is about as manipulative/evil/etc as you get). I never dodged a challenge, even when I could have, because I realized that challenges are the lifeblood of the game. I'd strongly encourage everyone who had a hand in these rulings or votes to consider getting ahold of all four players directly involved - and encouraging them to continue on with the challenges. I'd encourage the challenging&defending players to apologize to each other for the frustration, and get back to trying to make it work. Jaycy, G'nort, Xeric, Face, Drey, all of the voting Barons. That's what I would do, if I wanted to try to keep this game alive.

That is what I mean when I say "something has to give".

[Chris Graziano]

Wow, this was poorly handled by everyone. I'm sorry to see Face and Drey get screwed around like this.