RPing Out Dueling

[JewellRavenlock]

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I'm finally posting it. This has probably been considered before, on and off the boards, but I have a few specific questions regarding how people RP out their duels that I thought would be interesting to ask. I don't think there's any one way these questions should/could be answered and I don't think there ever should be a set way to RP out the duels. Just thought it would be interesting to see how others do RP out their duels and why.

Is role playing out the duel more important, less important, or just as important as the actual dueling for you?
For me, I duel with Jewell to enhance my role playing. It changes things up a bit, gives me something to talk about when playing her, something for her to participate in, and different people to interact with. When I'm dueling, yes I would like to win so the actual dueling is important (the choosing of moves, etc.) but I often place more importance on how I'm RPing the duel out (especially when it's with someone else who isn't just concerned with choosing moves and not even playing them out) because I will continue to refer back to it or use the duel as a jumping off point for more RP, like the night where Vinny absolutely destroyed Jewell in DoS; because he was specific and was descriptive in playing out his dueling moves, I was able to play off the injuries she obtained later which made it more fun.

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point?
I don't know if anyone else actually thinks about things like this. I have. I was trying to figure out what would be the most conducive way to go about it in terms of promoting RP.

The best way I could come up with (which I'm sure isn't -the- way to do it, if there is one) is to let the person giving up the point go first, describing their attempted attack. Then, the person who gains the point can play off the attempted attack, refuting it and delivering their own attack. Then, the person giving up the point could send their response to the attack. Maybe a little lengthy.

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?
Who gets to say how the hit is received? Obviously, the actual dueling determines who gets the point and if an attack goes through but when it comes to the actual RP of the duels, who should get to say how the attack goes: the one delivering it or the one receiving it?

When should people observing the duels react to the round called?
When characters are observing a duel, should they immediately react to a round right after it is called but before it is RP'd out, or should they wait?

[G]

Interesting questions. I'll go ahead and give some answers about how I think it is.

Is role playing out the duel more important, less important, or just as important as the actual dueling for you??

I think RPing out the duel is about as important as the actual dueling. Some people may over RP the duel, which can be kinda boring for me and slow down the duel. But nothing irks me more than someone who doesn't RP the duel at all.

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point??

I think it's normal to say the person scoring should RP it first, and let the one getting hit react to it.

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?
Who gets to say how the hit is received? ?

The person getting hit always has the right to say how the hit is received. There were times in the past where some players would be overly violent with their characters attacks. I.E. "Impales soanso with his blade, twisting it deep inside their intestines and ripping out great quantities of their entrails" That sort of thing was just plain powergaming. So, it became accepted that noone has the right to decide how your character is hit. With the Ward of Gondar automatically healing most people, sometimes people played that the injuries were a bit rougher than others.

Ultimately, it comes down to cooperative RP, trust, and personal preference.

When should people observing the duels react to the round called??

This never really has been a problem to me. Personally, I'd say wait to see how the duelists play it out, and react off of that because you'll have more information to go off of than "HC/TH." It also avoids a situation where you might say "Wow, Joe really look like he got hurt when that stabbed his stomach" and then Joe RPs "Takes a light tap to the chest" or something. Powergaming situations can come from observers as well as duelists.

You can be "destroyed" in a sport doesn't mean you have to play it like you can barely crawl from the ring. If you want to, though, and it helps with your style of play, then go for it. Just remember, what happens to your character is completely up to you. Not the opponent. Noone has a right to dictate what happens to my character.

[Jake]

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?
Who gets to say how the hit is received? ?

The person getting hit always has the right to say how the hit is received. There were times in the past where some players would be overly violent with their characters attacks. I.E. "Impales soanso with his blade, twisting it deep inside their intestines and ripping out great quantities of their entrails" That sort of thing was just plain powergaming. So, it became accepted that noone has the right to decide how your character is hit. With the Ward of Gondar automatically healing most people, sometimes people played that the injuries were a bit rougher than others.

Ultimately, it comes down to cooperative RP, trust, and personal preference.

When should people observing the duels react to the round called??

This never really has been a problem to me. Personally, I'd say wait to see how the duelists play it out, and react off of that because you'll have more information to go off of than "HC/TH." It also avoids a situation where you might say "Wow, Joe really look like he got hurt when that stabbed his stomach" and then Joe RPs "Takes a light tap to the chest" or something. Powergaming situations can come from observers as well as duelists.

I'm still on kick to remove the word powergaming from the vocabulary. It's not a useful term. See http://www.ringsofhonor.org/community/c ... nu=started

There's cooperative RP, and uncooperative.

In general, I've never let anyone determine the severity of a hit against me. Most of my characters are fairly mortal. Having their guts ripped out isn't something I'm going to play out, because the character wouldn't survive it.

On the other hand, I despise seeing the constant hits to the shoulder. That isn't where my character aimed his blow.

As G pointed out, it's about trust and cooperation. A really good duel has the duelists interacting with each other. Jesse Troyan and Jake used to have some great slugfests with no punches pulled.

As a general rule, when attacking, I try to specifiy where I am aiming, but not describe the severity of the hit. However, I also despise passive voice. So, it's never ::tries to hit him in the head:: instead it's ::swings for his head::. Then if the defender wants to RP out a headshot, he/she can ::reels away bleeding from the cut to his head::, and if they want to describe them getting their arm in the way, that's ok too ::shifts enough to avoid serious injury as the cut grazes his cheek:: or ::throws up an arm in time to catch the blow on it instead of his head::.

Addendum/clarification:

I think it's perfectly ok to describe/suggest the intended severity/strength of the blow. ::aims a decapitating blow at Rizzo:: or ::thrusts his blade in a disemboweling technique:: or ::unleashes a powerful swing at his opponent's face::. It's still up to the receiver to decide how hard the blow actually lands.

At the same time, it's good cooperative RP to acknowledge the attacker's intent. Responding to ::swings a mighty blow at Rizzo's head:: with ::ignores the wimpy blow that barely reaches his head:: is impolite and really isn't in the spirit of cooperative play.

[Topaz]

Generally (but not always) I prefer to leave the lines regarding who hits who with what move to the caller. It feels odd to me to repeat the caller's line, no matter the rephrasing. I'd rather have my characters react to the events of the round and have a conversation with the opponent. And sometimes, when I feel like dueling but not up to rp-ing, I am particularly appreciative of the caller doing all the dueling description for me.

About who gets to say how a hit is received... the old rule 'play your character not anyone else's' applies. In dueling, though, that can't reasonably be that striktly insisted upon. The caller has to announce the round somehow and my opponents usually have a clear idea of their dueling styles.

Who gets to RP first? In my experience, whoever has an idea and got it typed out and sent first. Though it would probably make more sense for the one who received a hit to type something first, otherwise a light tap may take out an eye or a powerful swing won't even dent armor.

[Jake]

Who gets to RP first? In my experience, whoever has an idea and got it typed out and sent first. Though it would probably make more sense for the one who received a hit to type something first, otherwise a light tap may take out an eye or a powerful swing won't even dent armor.

Yeah, but that can be just as subject to problems.

Let's say that Jake plans to take a light swing at PJ (he doesn't want to bruise his spokesmodel), and while I'm busy writing ::gives PJ a light push with an open palm:: she writes ::feels her jaw shatter under the terrible punch:: now despite my intent to land a light blow, I'm apparently abusing her.

I think it's good to let the attacker suggest the severity and type of attack before responding to it.

As an example, when Jake executes the JumpKick attack in DoF, I will sometimes describe that as a flying tackle instead of a kick. If the person getting hit writes ::gets kicked in the head:: it won't mesh with my attempt just to land on them.

[Koyliak]

Is role playing out the duel more important, less important, or just as important as the actual dueling for you?

For me, roleplaying out the duel is more important. I can find a way to work off of Koy winning or losing a match - one perk of playing a masochist is it can be a whole lot of fun to lose. I like vibing off of the other player to see how one duel is different from the last one. Of course there are times where I care about winning, particularly in team dueling since what I do affects other people.

I have a hard time though enjoying a duel where there's no RP on my opponent's side.

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point?

I usually try to wait for the person who scored to RP out the move first. I like knowing where they specifically envisioned hitting Koy so I know how to have her react. I think doing it that way lends itself to people taking more liberties with what a move can mean - i.e. maybe a jab was used but it doesn't automatically mean Koy was punched in the head. Maybe she was punched in the nose, mouth, jaw, eye, shoulder, etc. I'm OK with people stretching out the meaning of a move within reason (if you use a jab then I'm probably expecting to see a fist not a foot hitting Koy).

Going along with defining a move, it helps to let the scoring person go first in case they're moving away from the conventional use for a move. For example, if Koy is fighting a guy twice her size, chances are she's not physically capable of flipping him. If I score with a flip, I usually have her headbutting her opponent or swinging him towards the ropes because she can't full out pick him up and throw him down onto the mat.

However, for all that I don't really mind playing off of someone who didn't score going first. As long as there's enough flexibility for me to have some control over what Koy's doing, I'm fine either way.

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?

I don't think it's a right to determine but I think as Jake said it's OK for an attacker to suggest how severe a hit is. Koy's an intense fighter and she's for the most part not going to lightly tap her opponent. She's going to try and take his head off because she'd want her opponent to do the same. But I won't ever say something like ::hits him so hard in the ribs that she can feel at least one or two bones break:: or ::pops him in the nose, backing away from the onslaught of blood gushing out of it::.

I might tell you that Koy is looking to hit with as much force as she can muster but you have all the control in figuring out how little or much that hurts your character.

When should people observing the duels react to the round called?

This one I haven't thought about quite as much. It's really fine either way, especially if a character is reacting to hearing the score, not necessarily at the particular footwork. I'd think it's just more to the observer's benefit to wait for the description if he/she wants more to play off of.

This one got me thinking about something a little different - there are certain combinations that due to the difficulty in scoring with a certain move (i.e. spinkick, hook, etc.), when someone gets hit with this type of move characters played by people familiar with the matrix will more often than not see it as a more severe attack than other combinations. And that's even before the players RP them out.

For example, if Koy sees someone's flip get bowled over by a spinkick or an uppercut she's going to react more than seeing someone's flip get bowled over by a legsweep. It comes off as the attacker having more skill and/or the attacked getting his/her world rocked. That's my fault because it's letting my appreciation for the difficulty of landing a spinkick over a sweep get in the way but it's a hard habit to break. I don't necessarily think it's really bad that this happens but to me it just means in certain instances it can be the moves themselves dictating how severe a hit might be, not the fighters.

[Gnimish Gnimoi]

Is role playing out the duel more important, less important, or just as important as the actual dueling for you?

This depends on a lot of factors for me. Who I'm dueling, what my character was doing before the duel, what distractions are taking place, and how the other player is RPing the duel.

For example, it's really easy to get into some really detailed, fun duels with someone like Anubis where there's a great (often brutal) back and forth taking place. In duels like that the RPing of the duel is far more important than the technical aspects of the duel.

I'm not going to try quite so hard against someone who's not even making an attempt to describe their attacks, and in those cases I'll usually take the RP in a different direction and the dueling itself just becomes a "game".

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point?

Usually I'll let the person scoring the point describe their move first, simply because in my mind they're the one with the successful maneuver and therefore it makes sense for them to play it out in its entirety.

The person giving up the point of course failed in some way and that failure is non-intentional on their part usually due to the actions of their opponent, so it generally makes little sense to try describing the failure before the cause has been described.

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?

That's an interesting one. Now me, I'm not terribly picky about this sort of thing. If my opponent wants to RP that they bashed Gnimish upside the head with the force of a thousand rampaging bulls, sending him flying across the ring...I'll generally roll with it. Other people don't like that so much.

Usually when I'm scoring a hit, I'll try to avoid saying just where or how the attack landed and simply express that Gnimish attacked in such-and-such manner with his sword and if the other person wants to pick up on that and describe how the attack finally landed, that's all the better.

"Rolling with it" is probably the most important aspect to me. There's nothing more deflating than when someone RP's out a great attack sequence and their opponent is so picky or unreceptive that they go out of their way to anti-RP it in some way.

Obviously, some people just go too far with this subject, but sometimes it's hard to say just how far is "too far".

When should people observing the duels react to the round called?

Depends on the reaction I suppose. If it's just a general, "Woohoo, well done!" then that can just be done right as the round is called. If the observer is going to make some detailed analysis then it probably makes a lot more sense to wait until it has been RPed out in some way.

[Karen Wilder]

Is role playing out the duel more important, less important, or just as important as the actual dueling for you?

This is of great importance to me. There have been times when I have flat-out refused to duel certain people because they dueled me once and didn't RP at all during the entire duel. I do understand people who become unexpectedly busy after a duel starts, but I also expect those people to let me know that's why they're not RPing much. And I'd also like to see at least a tiny bit of RPing.

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point?

The person scoring should usually be the one who starts the description... However, I know I am a fast typist, so I can often start a description of a failed attack or defence that gives the other person something to play off of.

When looked at more deeply, the person who is attacking is often the best one to start the description... That way, a successful defence can be described in better detail.

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?

Almost never... In the case of a special event or circumstance (like when Vanion poisoned KW), an IM indicating the desire to have a specific effect can be sent. However, knowing your opponent is kind of important here... For example: KW, during regular duels, uses a pool-cue. It's really hard for her to "cut someone's cheek" or otherwise seriously wound them. Especially since she doesn't fight to wound... the Ward doesn't work on her, and she's seen it fail in the past, so she doesn't want that sort of thing on her concience. Another example is Maetel... she is tremendously strong, but she is very careful to not hit people hard. Her attacks are Nose-beeps, Ear-flicks, Tickle-tackles, Face-licks and other such romping fun moves. Of course, with her I always send the "desired result" effect in with the move... like "1) Jab... Nose-beep".

When should people observing the duels react to the round called?
When characters are observing a duel, should they immediately react to a round right after it is called but before it is RP'd out, or should they wait?

I typically will, like Gnim-bo's player, express approval or disapproval of a round result shortly after the caller's announcement. Anything more than that, I wait for the RPing of the round from the two players.

Generally (but not always) I prefer to leave the lines regarding who hits who with what move to the caller. It feels odd to me to repeat the caller's line, no matter the rephrasing. I'd rather have my characters react to the events of the round and have a conversation with the opponent. And sometimes, when I feel like dueling but not up to rp-ing, I am particularly appreciative of the caller doing all the dueling description for me.

Back in the day, many callers used generic programs to announce round results... and often, the caller's description didn't match up at all with what I pictured (and/or RPed) my character doing.

It's not nearly so bad now, but every once in awhile I'll see a line that makes me cringe... especially if I'm playing Maetel.


In general, it helps to know at least a little about the person you're dueling against. It really helps if they RP before and during the duel. For example, if Jesse Troyan fought Karen Wilder and someone got their stomach sliced open... well, you'd know something was wrong, 'cause JT dueled bare handed and KW duels with a pool-cue!

[Napoleon Bonarat]

Is role playing out the duel more important, less important, or just as important as the actual dueling for you?

Less important in that if someone is multitasking (as happens frequently--calling duels in TDL/IFL, watching teammates duel, etc.), I'm not gonna be bent out of shape. There's times where I'm tired and in the case of team dueling, it's (to me) more important to just get the duel done now while both parties are available than it is to RP.

However, I do try to RP most of my duels. And I don't much care if my opponent isn't RPing. Napoleon is more than happy to call the shots--literally.

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point?

I've been dueling for 12 years and this is the first time I've ever heard this and even weirder to read that some people actually follow some sort of etiquette with regard to it.

This doesn't matter to me at all. I don't even RP the move I sent sometimes. I'm just as likely to RP that I ran away even though I sent in TH as the move. If my opponent sends a good line after I already sent mine, then I have no problem playing in to it and acting as if my other chat didn't happen or doing what I can to transition my previous RP into what the other person set up--if I'm OK with that.

I have to admit that sometimes I have my RP already in the buffer just waiting for the caller to broadcast the round results. Something funny will pop in my head and I have to type it out or I'll forget. Of course, I often remove it when I need Napoleon to respond to something else , but after typing it once, it's easier for me to remember what I wrote or sometimes I even remember to ctrl-C/ctrl-V.

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?

Yes, but within reason. And I'll also say the person who gets hit has the right to determine how that hit is taken, within reason. Like as has been said, cooperation is the key. If my opponent scores on me and I don't particularly like what was RPed, I'll adjust. Like, just because my opponent scores on a thrust and RPs "::disembowels the rat::" doesn't mean I'm going to let that happen. This is a fantasy world and anything can happen, so I have no problem letting my opponent disembowel a chair. Or a serving boy. Or Skurge (heehee).

When should people observing the duels react to the round called?

Whenever they want. Usually the first response will be in support of one dueler or the other (or a jeer). After the RP, spectators can add more RP to interact with how the duelers are playing.

I don't necessarily see the RP chatter as linear or that what was sent to the room is set in stone. It's real easy for me to switch the chat around in my head for it to make sense so it doesn't matter to me who sends their move first or if the crowd reacted before I sent my chat in. If it's really a conflict, I just let it go or try to do a quick take two save ("::he was so certain his diving lunge made contact with his opponent, instead, he finds his cutlass stuck in the couch, oops::") I've rarely had there be any RP disagreement during the duel itself. At least no one has said anything to me directly about not liking how I RP my duels--any of them, not just Napoleon's.

I don't let how a duel is going dictate how my character develops, which is why it's easier for me to switch things around in my head or just let something that conflicts go (something that took me a long time to arrive at). It's not like other characters come up to Napoleon weeks after a duel and mentions a particularly contentious round or anything. I guess if I was using the duel to dictate storyline I might care more but unless I'm dueling someone intentionally to progress storyline, I had probably already talked to them beforehand about what my plan was to set the tone (while still keeping the randomness open--not talking about fixing a duel, just the RP ). But, eh, that's just not going to happen so I prefer to just wing it, ignore the conflicting stuff and laugh my ass off at the crazy stuff that gets RPed when interacting with other characters.

Sometimes a caller will call things I wouldn't necessarily see happening to my character, however, knowing how hard it is to stay original and interesting when calling a duel, I do my best to play in to whatever was called and have never taken offense when I'm calling and the duelers completely ignore what I'm sending other than the actual moves and score progression. Intent and cooperation again are the key. Id rather see callers be original and interesting than just OOCing the moves.

[Harris]

Is role playing out the duel more important, less important, or just as important as the actual dueling for you?

Had you asked me this six or seven years ago I would've said the actual dueling, but after all this time and a ton of experience it's all about the roleplaying for me.

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point?

This is actually one of my pet peeves. In my opinion the person who scores the point should roleplay first, then the person scored upon should roleplay out their reaction, including their failed move. The reason being it throws off the roleplay if the person hit reacts to a move you had no intention of using. That means I either have to shift my move to match your reaction or roleplay it out how I want to and make things look awkward. There's more than one way to play off a snapkick/leg sweep combo. I think it's poor roleplay to make assumptions about my attack instead of actually waiting to see what it is. No two attacks or defenses are exactly the same. In the aforementioned combination I could choose to have my kick aimed for shoulder or possibly face depending upon the person I'm dueling. It might not even be a kick, it could be a rising knee. Some people might not even roleplay their kicks out as kicks, they could be punches. Unless you have a distinct knowledge of the player you're dueling you should allow the person who scores the point to RP first. As for no points or dual points the order really doesn't matter.

Does a person who scores a point against their opponent have the right to determine how that opponent takes the hit?

This question is mired in gray. Every hit should be taken, but naturally the force of the blow depends on the person hit. It's up to the attacking player to effectively roleplay out their move so that their opponent knows the force of the attack right up front. As an example, ::paws with the jab, testing his distance:: is obviously a lighter blow than ::frustrated, he swings for the fences, intending to knock his opponent's block off:: Obviously it's up to the person taking the hit to decide the actual force it connects with. It really boils down to a level of respect and cooperation between the players involved.

When should people observing the duels react to the round called?

You know, I've never really thought about this because it's never been a huge deal to me. I suppose you could react after the round is called, seeing as how everyone knows who scored the point. Any type of attack specific reactions though should wait until the actual moves have been played out.

[Sartan]

I'm fine with either person typing out the round result first but that's likely because I'm a fan of the passive voice when playing out my round, win or lose. Unless I'm really comfortable with someone, I've always got a ::tries:: or ::attempts:: thrown in there. That way, whether my character won the round or didn't, both of us can react to the duel as we will.

My strongest feeling is that a round should be played out by whoever goes first in a way that gives each person an equal chance to play out their characters in a way they want to. When the first person to play out the round immediately states how contact was made and where, it's pretty limiting for the other person.

[Spiffy McBang]

-Roleplaying is important because it sucks to go ::pokepoke:: and ::tackle:: against someone who doesn't even bother to ::fall::.

-It's only sensible for the scorer to go first, for reasons that have been delineated clearly enough. I've had plenty of occasions where someone went ::gets crushed by the big man::, and Goon hits about as lightly as anyone. It should be noted, however, that a lot of times the person getting hit isn't paying any attention to what's going on and ends up reacting improperly even though the scorer RP'd first. (At least, it happened when I was playing regularly, but that was a long time ago.)

-People have answered the third question in different ways, but it sounds like we're pretty much all on the same page in reality. As long as the interaction makes sense and neither player feels forced to go in a direction they hadn't intended because of their opponent's RP, it's fine.

-Again, good sense says that bystanders can't properly react to something until it happens- and (HC/TH) is not what's happening.

[Corlanthis]

When dueling, who should RP out the move first: the person scoring a point (if a point is scored) or the person giving the point up (if that is the case)? Who should RP out the move first when no point is scored or both opponents score a point?

I usually (not always!) believe the person scoring should post first, however, in the case of, say, a successful fancy defense in the DoF, I usually let the person who was scored on go first just because the point gain in the fancied move lies in the counter-attack.

[Skurj]

This is a fantasy world and anything can happen, so I have no problem letting my opponent disembowel a chair. Or a serving boy. Or Skurge (heehee).

Goblin abuse! Goblin abuse!