Stories from RhyDin & The Rings

Hey, guys. What's good? Hope you've all been doing well.

So, recently, I tried to get my email off of the officials' communal Challonge account*, and it got me thinking about this place again. You know, good thoughts, nice memories, all that stuff. So I stopped by to check on how things are doing, and I'm glad you're all still trucking along. But I noticed there are some troubles. Flashchat dying to death (as an IT, I've been waiting for Flash itself to go six feet under anyways), staffing troubles, Arbiter not working for someone who tried to run it a couple months ago, etc.

So there's a project I was thinking about putting some time into, but I wanted to gauge interest in it first. I don't want to put in the time only for it to not be wanted. But I also want to temper expectations; I have no idea how long this will take. Also, I have a sinking feeling that I brought up something like this before, but I don't see it in my recent post history so I guess not. Anyways.

I want to make some software that would automate a lot of things. Most things, in fact. And if possible, all of the things. And I really mean all. I want to automate standings keeping and standings page generation. I want to create software that replaces Arbiter and runs entirely on the web, and then connect those pieces of software together. And lastly, I want to create a bot that sits around in prochat and does it all for us. It probably sounds like a lot, but recent programming languages allow all of that to be in one codebase, so even when it comes to server stuff vs client-side stuff, I don't have to duplicate code.

Arbiter was built a long, long time ago on old technology. It doesn't surprise me that there are people having trouble with it. The last release was in 2011, and Google Code died since then; the URLs to get to it aren't even good anymore! (Psst--they moved it over here.) Since this game takes place on the web, it'll make sense for the new version to run on the web too. Maybe as a separate tab, maybe as something that can be embedded somewhere on the page for the chat somehow. I'd also like the tool to be able to submit duels automatically. Not so much as forum posts, but rather, I'd like to be able to create a database that would store duelists and duel results. It would generate standings on the fly after every duel with whatever algorithms you choose to use. I wouldn't want to throw out current standings; I'd find a way to carry them over and automate from that point on. I won't lie; part of my motivation for automated standings is the ability to create a better ranking system, but me doing this isn't at all contingent on whether or not you're all down with that. The ability will be there if you want to use it, that's what matters.

I'm personally most excited at the prospect of creating a chat bot, but I know it could also be the potentially most contentious part of it. Why do I want to make a chat bot? Well, staffing shifts is difficult, even back in the heyday. If there's a bot that can take care of ranked matches, it wouldn't be a big deal if a caller couldn't make any given night. Not to mention, the nature of the beast of having a human between the combatants and the matrix, and having to report on each round for each duel, is a big part of why duels take so long to do. A chat bot, however, can resolve and report instantaneously. In addition, you wouldn't need a third person for unranked/practice matches. I don't envision a future without callers, though. Especially not at first since errors will happen and will need to be corrected by a trusted individual, and probably not for challenge matches and tournaments either, because it's necessary to have someone official around to keep everything on the up and up.

So, is anyone interested in any part of this? Like I said, I can't guarantee a time frame on any of this, but I am nearly done with college (like, in four weeks) so I'm about to get back a lot of my personal time for good. If I can put some of it toward helping you guys rather than another hour of practicing Tekken backdashes, then I'm all about it.

* Still trying to do that, btw. Anyone want to log in and slap their own email down on that for me? PM me if you want to but are not sure what to do.

DO IT! DO ALL THE THINGS!

Okay, so I don't understand some of this because it goes over my head but it does sound like all positive ventures that could be really helpful in keeping this place alive and/or breathing some life into it (maybe?).

Also, if it was fully automated, that could make a trial of a different ranking system easier, right? It could potentially run side-by-side with the current ranking system during a trial.

Staffing is a huge problem. I don't know if a bot completely solves it. I mean, it does and it solves other potential issues but I think it could also make an issue of engagement.

Automating calling will just make it easier to feed and/or cheat and remove RP from the equation IMO.

I'd also bet money that it'd be a lot more work to handle, both creating it and maintaining it, than is reasonable. Every time there's a bug or error, it'll need fixing. And when the bot screws up, which is will because users are involved and users are evil, a live person will still need to step in and fix it. Basically, I don't think it'll actually be easier on anyone.

I maintain that the answer is to seek out new people to participate. Not from RDI, but from the wider internet in general.

DemiBob wrote:I maintain that the answer is to seek out new people to participate. Not from RDI, but from the wider internet in general.

Not ignoring your concerns with automated calling because I think those are pretty valid, but this this this!

I follow the RhyDin Remembered group on FB. There are still so many people text-based RPing (obviously not limited to that group, but it gives a glimpse into a part of the text-based RP world). There seems to be a mass migration over to playing on Discord, where there are a bunch of active, text-based RP servers.

And that's just one place people are playing.

Hey Bob, thanks for your thoughts!

DemiBob wrote:Automating calling will just make it easier to feed and/or cheat

Your concerns about cheating are valid. I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it, honestly. Like, what about a player fighting himself? The bot wouldn't stop an Ellie vs. Neo duel unless it knew the same player was behind them. That's something we could definitely track, but it would require honesty from the players, and even then, some people are very protective of their character/player identities for a wide variety of very good reasons.

and remove RP from the equation IMO.

I'd like to offer a counter-point to this particular bit. As things stand now, duelists RP in reaction to the results. It doesn't really matter what flavor the callers add, if they add any flavor at all. So if a bot just dumps a stupid unflavored result report to the chat, it's the same for the duelists. But the fact does remain that some callers have a lot of flavor and are really fun to have around. That's something we could still do! If a caller were hanging out with the bot, they could RP their own reactions to the round-by-round events, and have their own give-and-take with their duelists just as we hae now. This is the same as how it works IC anyways; a caller witnesses something happen in the ring, reacts, and records the scores as they change. If scoring and reporting is automated, a caller's role changes to officiation and reaction.

I'd also bet money that it'd be a lot more work to handle, both creating it and maintaining it, than is reasonable. Every time there's a bug or error, it'll need fixing. And when the bot screws up, which is will because users are involved and users are evil, a live person will still need to step in and fix it. Basically, I don't think it'll actually be easier on anyone.

This is all entirely possible. But I still think the more automation we can add into the entire process, the easier it'll be for everyone. Even if a person has to be there, why not make their job easier? How about an automated results printout anytime a round resolves? Or even just a template that the caller modifies as desired and then sends to chat?

I think your reservations regarding a chat bot are well reasoned and well-stated, so I'm willing to hold off on that aspect. It was gonna have to be the last thing I make anyways. I'm not as attached to the notion of a chat bot as much as I am the notion of doing anything to make callers' jobs easier. Speeding up duels with automated result printouts is one possibility I am particularly attached to, because if we want to attract people from outside, we're gonna have to do that.

I absolutely do not want to take RP out of dueling. But the important part of dueling is the duelists, and reducing the turnaround time before they see the results of their choices and being able to play them out before making their next decision is a time-save I definitely want to jump on.

I maintain that the answer is to seek out new people to participate. Not from RDI, but from the wider internet in general.

I think that's a great idea, but how do we do that?

JewellRavenlock wrote:There seems to be a mass migration over to playing on Discord, where there are a bunch of active, text-based RP servers.

Discord? No kidding? Do people just have multiple discord accounts for their characters, or does the software have functionality to help with the disconnect between a player and their character?

Any way we can speed up the calling process or make it easier for the callers would be helpful, I think. I think there are a couple people who have done some work on a potential tool that would remove at least one step from my tool-less calling process (I've always called on the RDI side). This, of course, does not remove the human element from the length of a duel. But as a caller, if I could spend more time hosting the room and trying to make the environment more fun and interactive during my shift, I feel like that would be a good thing.

As for automation, I would just caution against allowing shift-less play. While on the surface, being able to offer more dueling times sounds like a really good thing, especially for people whose schedules don't match the traditional shift times (and I am very sympathetic to that problem). But our community is really thin on the ground right now. I could be wrong, and I am open to someone convincing me otherwise, but it seems to me that putting in a system that allows people to duel whenever they want or need to would further fragment the community and make it difficult to get more people to attend already thinly attended shifts. Or maybe this is a 'if you build it, they will come' scenario? I'm not sure. What do you think?

That we need more players from the internet at large is a pretty obvious thing at this point. But I also feel like making constructive proposals and offering assistance for that has been like screaming into the void.

So, I'll support you in whatever enthusiasm and interest you bring to the table. But I hope it doesn't ultimately end up to be wasted effort.

Do it up. 100% faith in you fam. Discord showed me the way that Automatic is great.

The issue of cheating isn't much different than what can happen now. A person could duel themselves now, a person can grab a friend and have them take a loss now, so any issues of cheating happening with a bot is something that could easily be done in the here and now. We already use the honor system for a majority of things.

Live callers for challenges / tournaments tho is a good idea. Mainly to allow someone like Neo to participate without having a shadow cast on them. There's the argument of "Whoever controls the bot may be able to be fed moves as the duel goes on and be able to react accordingly".

As for RP.. I dunno, if people have issues with rping due to a calling bot then that seems more on them than anything else. People should be responsible for their own roleplay. If you fight an opponent who doesn't RP out their moves, don't fight them again, so on and so forth. As a caller I'd more than likely come around to play even on the day of my former shift if full automation happened.

Apple wrote:Discord showed me the way that Automatic is great.

Can you elaborate on how this works for people who have not used Discord for gaming?

They'd need to download the discord program or make an account and use the webapp before anything. Discord is like AIM but with an optional voice chat with the text chat format. It's used mostly for raiding guilds and other gaming stuff. Kalamere has a fully automated dueling bot on there. If you download the program/etc I'll toss up the link here.

Discord for RP seems very weird to me, but maybe I'm just old.

I think it's just different, Bob? I downloaded it. I've opened it a few times and then just closed it again.

Maybe we should pick a night and all try it out. I'd be interested to see how it works with multiple people on a server. Is it easy to follow?

There's ?help options. It becomes easier once you know the commands.

The discord has...

Automated dueling.
Text matrix.
Text standings that link/show current standings.
A round by round command to show you what has been done in current and your past duels.
The ability to change your nickname through the bot to play another character.

I'm sure there's a few more things but I'm not thinking of them currently.

Sorry! I wasn't clear (multi-tasking at work here). I meant will a busy room be easy to read/follow.

Also, is there a way to find servers? Like, if we had a chat on there, could other RPers looking for a home easily find us?

JewellRavenlock wrote:Sorry! I wasn't clear (multi-tasking at work here). I meant will a busy room be easy to read/follow.

Also, is there a way to find servers? Like, if we had a chat on there, could other RPers looking for a home easily find us?

You have to link them directly. Links can either be types that expire after a while or never expire.

Also the chat doesn't scroll off.. let's say you go afk, the chat will not scroll past a point and you'd be able to scroll down it to catch up. There also isn't a need for a /back 30 option since discord logs everything and you'd just have to scroll up upon joining back in/turning back on your computer if you never log out. All names have an avatar connected to them, each persons posts are split between names and / or lines. It's pretty easy to follow.

Liiike. Here's an example of the standings.

I'm happy to download Discord and play around with it--I know what it is and that people have been talking about it in the context of the disappearance of the flash chat.

What I was asking more was can you describe what you learned from automation in Discord and how you envision automated calling will work for dueling? I raised a concern about automation thinning the shift population in my post, but maybe your experience with automation in Discord has given you a different perspective?