Intercessions?

[Fourth]

You know, this isn't the first time I've heard this from a new player, so I'd like some others to comment, maybe.

DoS is fine, it's a fun sport. But really, the intercession thing? I think it's a bad system. Why should I bother to challenge when, let's be real, I know someone's going to step in. To me, it can be great or it can be really, really lame. Sure, if there's an IC reason for someone to step in, that's great. But....I think it's a platform for other things. I know my stance is radical, but let me ask you this. Why does it exist in one sport, not the other two? Is it really called for? What purpose does it serve? I know it keeps me from challenging, because right now, there's no point. There would be an intercession within moments, so why bother? In that sense, it's keeping at least me from the sport. Does it keep anyone else from the sport? I'm just curious, so please feel free to comment.

So my question is this, really. What point does it serve and does it keep people from being interested in DoS or is it just me? New players, would you bother with a challenge knowing you'd have to fight an intercession? Or would that prevent you from challenging?

[Peaches]

So, I don't duel. I'm not savvy with a lot of the things that come with dueling. I enjoy the duels a lot, though, to the point that I even became a caller to be more involved. I enjoy the aspects of RoH because I feel it is such a brilliant concept to get people involved, to get people interested even if it is out of their normal cup of tea.

Being new, I've been so confused at the politics and oddity of how DoS works in comparison to the other two main sports. I've asked many questions based on it and simply get the answer that that is how it has always been. The tradition behind it all. That's all well and dandy, but man, I feel like that kind of causes it to be stale in comparison.

Take DoF and DoM -- there are challenges happening almost always within those realms. Constantly evolving and changing up those that hold the titles and being really engaging with giving hope to newer blood for entering in the ranks. There is more of a chance for the newbies that come in, wide eyed and bushy tailed wanting to be in on it all.

Where as with DoS, I feel, kind of puts up some walls for that type of thing. Maybe not intentionally, but just based on what it was years and years ago with no actual change to accommodate for the fresh blood.

Again, I am not meaning any of this as a slight to DoS, but just answering a question that was piped up and from the view of someone fairly new, if not completely new given I do not duel.

It seems like such a bizarre way to go about things, don't you think? If you get challenged but don't want to actually go through with it, you can easily entice (if you are Loyal to the Baron) someone to come stand in your place and do it for you. Why? Why have that? I just don't really understand the logistics behind the way that works.

[JewellRavenlock]

My first comment to someone tonight, upon seeing the intercessions happen, was along the lines of thinking that such events are what make DoS more interesting.

Anything that can provide conflict in RP can make it more interesting. RP can be stale when everyone is all hugs/kisses/friends. By possibly creating some animosity by choosing to be renegade, choosing to intercede for a friend, whatever.. opportunities for conflict are created.

Also, there's the whole old-school knights and lords aspect to DoS.

ETA: The possibility of an intercession would not dissuade me from challenging. As soon as I can, I will. Maybe someone will even intercede, which just gives me another chance to show I can do it.

[Morgan le Fay]

Well, DOS was the first to have challenges and that is the system it's had roughly for most of its life. DOF and DOM only had the Diamond and Archmage Tourney (to decide who had to face the Archmage) to decide one top slot.

DOF introduced opals, and opted to be different from DOS by making it just between the opal and the challenger and those matches are always best of three. They are further different in that an emerald doesn't need any bona fides, like DOS does. It used to be you needed 10-15 peer wins just to challenge. Then it was changed to just peer duels, and now with our lower numbers, it's just "show of activity." And, in DOS, the challenged can choose what format the challenge will be, and aren't locked into a best of three if they don't want it. I may not remember this correctly, but I don't think challenges originally had a best of three option. It was either single format or if you were loyal, your OL could step in. Or if an OL challenge, the OL could insist on a Test. Renegades stepping in made it more interesting to be a Renegade and worth the risk of having a challenge queue.

All of this was to make DOS more intriguing, and sure, there were lots of fights about it. For example, when MadMadMax told Valmion "yuh not wuthy," the Arena had a meltdown (MadMadMax also kidnapped Valmion's son). Sometimes barons changed their alignment when they didn't like the OL testing barons, for another example. So the argument for intercessions and tests is to make it more than just two people meet, blah, go home. It was an opportunity for RP. Build your factions, woo your barons to your side, or strike bargains with your OL to ensure your loyalty.

DOS always has tried to be more than just a duel. An OL and a Baron has to cultivate a careful plan in order to hold onto their title and not piss off the wrong people in the process.

I'm not defending DOS's system as a means to cut down DOF or DOM systems. All three have differences and I think that's key and important. I'm only pointing out that DOS was the first to have more than just a top dog and out of that came many evolutions of the current "Universal Terms of Challenge" and "Rules of Rank."

[Morgan le Fay]

There's also a twist where if a Renegade challenges OL and the OL does a test, the Renegade can have a champion of any rank to face the OL's tester. If the Renegade champ beats the OL tester, and the tester is a baron, I think that champ can then challenge the baron for the title, regardless of rank (see Deathlord/Anubis pairing in the histories).

And if a baron challenges the OL and the baron has a champion, if the baron wins, the new OL can choose to give his/her vacated barony to the champion, if I remember the rules right.

So it's not just about thwarting a challenger. Sometimes it's about thwarting the intercession or test.

It's about strategy as much as the round by round, both game wise and RP wise, in DOS challenges.

[Jake]

I've asked many questions based on it and simply get the answer that that is how it has always been. The tradition behind it all.

Keep in mind probably the main reason you get this answer is that few people are around that were actually a part of the decision and know the whys.

So...from a historical perspective...

One of the things that makes RoH unique is that it is about both dueling, and about role-play. If you ask some, it's the game that's more important. If you ask others, it's the RP that's more important. Regardless of which side you fall on, part of what makes RoH unique is that it tries to be a blend of both.

There are many places to "game". You can play chess with a friend. Play a first-person shooter on your XBox. Grab an MtG deck and have at your friends... but these aren't "IC" games for the most part. You're just playing a game, and any trash-talk is player to player.

The Free-form roleplay comes from the opposite direction. No rules (or minimal rules) and lots of impromptu story-telling.

There are many places you can game. There are many places you can roleplay. This is the only one that tries to blend the two. (Or at least using the matrix-style games that we have.)

Why bring that up? Well...some of the answer lies in that balance between the two. DoS *is* a game. However, if that's all it were, then it would only appeal to a smaller subset of players that come here. For some people, dueling, challenging, winning titles, tournies, etc. *is* what they enjoy, and there's nothing wrong with that. The Fancy system certainly came out of that game-side of things.

But we also have an RP side. Some people don't challenge because they don't duel to win, they duel to have fun, and they are more interested in a "fun" duel than they are winning and stats and numbers.

Nothing wrong with either of those two approaches.

So...why Intercessions? Why Tests of Worthiness? Again, the folks who implemented those systems are mostly long gone. But, I would offer that they are elements intended to foster the RP side of the game.

Why be Loyal if there's no benefit? Why be Renegade? The Loyalty system is about adding color to the game. So too are the manors, and the Opal powers, and the Towers... they are something beyond a game benefit to help make DoS/DoF/DoM attractive to a wider crowd than just those with a gamer-mindset.

I can remember when the 1st Test of Worthiness happened. Overlord MadMadMax was challenged by Valmion. Names long since forgotten by most. There was such moral outrage on the forums when Max declared that he would use the Test against Valmion. Valmion was one of the most respected duelers in the community at the time. Max was played as a villain (albeit a hysterical one). Max used the Test to make the challenge more interesting. There were rumors that he'd kidnapped Valmion's child as I recall. Exciting stuff. A very memorable challenge.

Granted, for those of us into the stats, looking at how many titles someone has won, or how many defenses they've fought, can be fun. We like that stuff. Stats mean something to us.

On the other hand, go ask any individual player what their favorite challenge or event was, and would it be the 35th time Var challenged for the 10th barony he claimed as his, or would it be the one where the Overlord was extorting the challenger? Or the one where Harris and Anubis were tied together so they were fighting at knife distance? Was it the grudge match over a Test that someone objected to being applied?

Mind you, there's no wrong answer.

The short answer to "what benefit does the Loyalty structure provide to the game?" is that it provides color, and RP potential that takes DoS beyond just being Paper-Scissors-Rock.

When Gnimish was OL, Billy Ray insisted that he be used to Test every challenger. He even threatened (as I recall) that if he was not used to Test, that he would issue a challenge to the Overlord himself.

Drama. Pageantry. Stories. Things that we can talk about years from now..."remember that time that so and so did this?"

Now, just because that's the way it's been for X years, doesn't mean it can't change. In the old days, something we did every year or so was have Rules Discussions as a community to talk about what's working...what's not working...what might we like to try...etc. We don't have those discussions as often as we did back in the day, but I don't think anyone is against having them. It's always useful to have input. That's how the Alignments came about. How the Manors came about. How the Talon came about. How the Squires came about.

Discussion is good. Feedback is good.

Play on.

[Fourth]

My question is this, now. You say that there was drama, there was conflict and there was RP. Was is a powerful word.

Is there now or is it just an antiquated system? Again, I'm not calling anyone or anything out, I'm just curious as to why it happens, you know? I understand the historical aspect of it and that's worth respect, no doubt. But, you know, I guess I just sort of don't see a reason for it in the here and now. I've yet to really see the RP and conflict created out of it, so it almost seems like a moot point, I guess.

[Morgan le Fay]

I'd argue that is because a large percentage of the current set that is willing to challenge is more of a gamer (endgame/achievement) mindset rather than anything else. No judgment there because I'm a gamer too.

I like rules discussions.

[Harris]

Jake and Morgan made excellent points in my opinion. The idea of the intercession/test/alignment system is to add flavor to the sport. Speaking for myself, I've always found Overlord Tests as the most intriguing element of DoS, because I love seeing who the Overlord digs up to Test. I also enjoy seeing who the challenger has step in for them, if anyone at all. It adds a dramatic layer to the challenge, having this sort of undercard match, and that helps transform what could've been a very basic challenge into a real spectacle that draws more people in than just the two people vying for a title.

The idea of drama and conflict is up to the individual(s) involved in any given challenge. It's about taking the process and seeing what you (general you) can get out of it creatively. You (again, general) want to challenge, but there's the likelihood of intercession? Strike a deal with a Renegade Baron to have them step up for you. Better yet, wrangle a Loyal Baron to change their alignment and help you out. Write out a series of posts, hinting at a Baron changing their alignment, then reveal it at the actual challenge match. There are innumerable RP possibilities that can stem from, "I want to challenge, but I expect an intercession". It can easily be viewed as an *opportunity* as opposed to a detriment. It's something that DoF and DoM don't have the ability to offer.

Just because an idea or a concept falls into a lull, doesn't mean it's not still a good idea or concept. At its core, the politicking that goes on in DoS has the ability to outshine the title/challenge field in all the other sports if more people interweave the RP elements at their disposal directly into their challenges. It's all there, sitting pretty in front of every Warlord, Baron, and Overlord. It's just a matter of stopping to brainstorm.

If there's a considerable amount of people held back specifically by the potential for Overlord intercessions, then to me the idea should be to tweak that specific element. Limit the amount of intercessions per cycle for the Overlord, so they're forced to pick and choose which of their Loyals are most valuable and deserve their sword.

[Andrea Anderson]

If there's a considerable amount of people held back specifically by the potential for Overlord intercessions, then to me the idea should be to tweak that specific element. Limit the amount of intercessions per cycle for the Overlord, so they're forced to pick and choose which of their Loyals are most valuable and deserve their sword.

Could limit it 1 per Baron during their reign. That way Barons have to pick and choose which challenge is best to request an intercession. I recall hearing the idea from someone but I can't quite remember who.

[Morgan le Fay]

For me personally, I never challenged (except with a grant), because I never wanted to deal with peer wins (now SOA). I always expected that if I were to challenge traditionally, that I'd be facing the OL or a tester.

I think also that people have their own scale on when they'll ask for intercession/impose a test, fight single, or fight best of three. For some, they roll the dice. For others, it's about if they even like the challenger or not. For others, it's about the story. For others, it's a time element. They don't have time for best of three, so they go with single.

If there's really a concern that there's not enough challenges (and I'd certainly like to see more than just G/G's characters and Apple/Apple's characters making up most of the challenges--go them for consistenly racking up SOA ), I think I'd rather see changes in SOA/challenge requirements before I restrict the OL to playing favorites with their loyals.

Also, I swear Jake and I didn't collude to bring up the MadMadMax/Valmion challenge. It's just one that sticks in my mind the most in the past two decades of dueling.

[Jake]

Also, I swear Jake and I didn't collude to bring up the MadMadMax/Valmion challenge. It's just one that sticks in my mind the most in the past two decades of dueling.

I think that kind of goes to the point. That challenge was *so* memorable because of the RP around it, and the use of the Test.

[Kruger]

When Gnimish was OL, Billy Ray insisted that he be used to Test every challenger. He even threatened (as I recall) that if he was not used to Test, that he would issue a challenge to the Overlord himself.

That sounds like something I would do. Where is this Billy Ray and can we pay him to return?

I don't participate in these discussions often, mostly it has to do with my own personal feelings about gaining rank and making challenges. If I ever make it there, I will challenge. That being said, I will RP my behind off to enjoy whatever duels come my way. I was recently honored with an opportunity to challenge that, let's face it, numerically I did not deserve. I had a great time trying to 'turn' the baron's squire to my side, and I hope that Kal and Jewell took some enjoyment from that as well. Unfortunately it was intercession free or I would happily have fought that duel as well. No real surprise there I suppose because as I hope everyone already knows... I just like to fight!

[Hope]

From my experience the thought of being interceded upon kept me away from the sport, in a competitive sense, for roughly 7 months time. I only really developed an interest in attempting to gain rank in the sport when Vanion became the Overlord simply because of how the state of barons changed dramatically. All of the time I had been here previously had been dominated by intercessions and the thought of grinding through a rank, then SoA only to not get to fight the individual I challenged and to lose just felt like it would be more worth not attempting. I'm most likely in the minority but for the majority of time that I've been here (just under a year now, so yes I'm a babby still) I've seen little to no disparity with baron alignments.

The above is really the only time I witnessed a blatant shift in power and that was short lived unfortunately. Right now we're seeing the color come out with the system as it was intended. Intercessions are being balanced by renegades, which does seem very nice and offers a decent amount of play. Is it necessarily the system or was it more of a circumstantial reasoning behind the duldrums that went on previously? Maybe a mixture of both. I'd be for a tweaking of the rules that still maintained the essence of the current system but with liability.

Could limit it 1 per Baron during their reign. That way Barons have to pick and choose which challenge is best to request an intercession. I recall hearing the idea from someone but I can't quite remember who.

Would it be too drastic to suggest this? An intercession becomes more of a cheat-death if you are unsure of your ability to defend rather than a safety blanket.

[Harris]

If there's a considerable amount of people held back specifically by the potential for Overlord intercessions, then to me the idea should be to tweak that specific element. Limit the amount of intercessions per cycle for the Overlord, so they're forced to pick and choose which of their Loyals are most valuable and deserve their sword.

Could limit it 1 per Baron during their reign. That way Barons have to pick and choose which challenge is best to request an intercession. I recall hearing the idea from someone but I can't quite remember who.

Reigns don't have static timetables. To limit intercessions per reign can severely handcuff a Baron if they, or the Overlord, have an extended reign.

The idea of limiting an Overlord's intercessions per cycle is to further create interactions between titleholders. If the Overlord is limited to, as an example, 3 intercessions per cycle then the Barons have to vie for them, and prove their worth. Intercessions then become a reward for Loyalty that has to be earned, rather than simply given away whenever requested. If the Overlord has a reliable Baron that always Tests, they can reward them and intercede in up to 3 challenges they have in a cycle to keep them around, just as an example. I think the idea of favoritism in the upper ranks has the ability to further distinguish Loyals from one another and spark some interesting RP. Being Loyal becomes more than just saying, "I'm Loyal" then not being required to do anything else for your tenure to reap all the benefits.

To balance out lessening the amount of intercessions available to the Supreme Duelist, you strengthen the intercession itself, and no longer allow Renegade Barons to champion a challenger when the Overlord intercedes. Essentially, Overlord intercessions would be absolute, but limited per cycle. More powerful, less frequent.

Obviously, anything you do in DoS has far reaching effects. I also think you have to remove intercession free challenges if the Overlord is already limited in the scope of their intercessions, or severely limit them to possibly a Madness prize each year. Potentially giving one out every WLT becomes entirely too many IC free challenges.