Baron Challenge Grants

[Morgan le Fay]

I get that some of you like the simplicity of challenging and fighting the person you want to fight. You have that option in DOM and DOF, if that's your groove.

In DOS, it's different. There's a political structure in place. Challenge a loyal baron and you might have to face the Overlord. Challenge the Overlord and you may be tested first. That's what makes DOS unique.

Handing out intercession free challenge grants subverts the loyal baron option to have the Overlord step in to intercede.

I don't mind the occasional baron challenge grant. One given away as a prize so soon after three given away in Madness is a little soon, though. But the real sticking point here is that there should only be one test free grant given, and that's the one awarded to the Warlord Tourney winner who chooses the prize of challenging the Overlord. All other grants should be subject to the political and strategic play that is unique to DOS.


G, I'm assuming you're doing this because you'd like to personally see more challenges. Hey, that's cool. Maybe asking for 10 SOA in two cycles isn't feasible for most warlords these days. However, prizes should be subject to the same rules as the warlords who get there the hard way with SOA.

Circumventing the rules in place just seems disingenuous to me. Unless the intent is to make all three sports the same as far as challenges go, then why not just get rid of alignments altogether?

I suggest that if the community really does want challenges to be the same across all three sports, i.e., get rid of baronial alignments, then we have a rules discussion and officially change the rules to reflect the current mindset rather than staff circumventing rules they perhaps don't agree with.

[G]

I went through all the Warlord tournaments back to 2011 when Imp was still calling challenges to verify, and when there were no Baronies available, Every prize has been a Intercession/Test free Overlord and Baronial challenge.

This isn't something new. This is something that's been going on for quite some time. I would ask why this has never come up in any of the previous Warlord Tournament prizes?

Special events, like Madness and the Halloween Events require special prizes. So, up to 6 test free grants have been given. Those grants have not been damaging to the sport. I would challenge anyone to show me proof that it has. Test free challenges given away in Warlord Tournaments have not shown to be damaging either, so I would make the same challenge for proof that it is.

G, I'm assuming you're doing this because you'd like to personally see more challenges. Hey, that's cool. Maybe asking for 10 SOA in two cycles isn't feasible for most warlords these days. However, prizes should be subject to the same rules as the warlords who get there the hard way with SOA.

I'm doing this because Test/Intercession free challenges have been done for many, many years over many, many Warlord Tournaments. This is nothing new.

What I ask you now, is why is it this question is only coming up now?

[G]

ircumventing the rules in place just seems disingenuous to me. Unless the intent is to make all three sports the same as far as challenges go, then why not just get rid of alignments altogether?

I suggest that if the community really does want challenges to be the same across all three sports, i.e., get rid of baronial alignments, then we have a rules discussion and officially change the rules to reflect the current mindset rather than staff circumventing rules they perhaps don't agree with.

You may have something here, I guess. If there seems to be support for such an idea, perhaps a discussion regarding this should take place and if there's support for a similar system where a challenge a month per WL is allowed, etc. can take place.

[Morgan le Fay]

For one, I wasn't around in 2011-2012. Pretty sure I was gone from 2010 until about January 2013.

So to me, this is new. You also highlighted the test/intercession free in this year's Madness, which is different from last year's which simply stated "challenge grants."

I also know that Candy got some grief about it when she did the Halloween grants, so I'm hardly the first person to protest.

I'm bring this up now because I'm actually in the midst of what's going on so I actually noticed it. Before 2013? Challenges weren't something even close to my radar.

Now? I can't play the high level DOS game of politics and strategy and alignments because the majority of challenges have clauses in place that circumvent it. Morgan has loyal barons where she can't intercede if they get challenged. Defeats the whole point of having these rules in place.

So again I assert, if the community would really prefer no alignments and instead simplify the challenge process in DOS, then get a rules discussion in place.

Otherwise, I'm actually trying to play this game according to how the rules are laid out. Personally, it's frustrating playing a game by the rules only to have them circumvented. Maybe I'm the only one who has/had an OL or Baron character who is frustrated by this.

[Kalamere]

I'm still sorta researching the whole intercession free 2nd prize thing and haven't gotten up to modern years yet. I know in 2004 and 05 the standard was an intercession free OL challenge and a peer win free Baronial challenge which was subject to intercession. I have a lot more reading I want to do before speaking much on that topic.

As to this though:

So to me, this is new. You also highlighted the test/intercession free in this year's Madness, which is different from last year's which simply stated "challenge grants."

That's true. Last year Aurast won and got a challenge grant which he used against Matt and there WAS an intercession on the fight which Aurast lost. It actually caused a lot of mostly IC conflict over whether or not the intercession should have happened. It was Rakeesh, I believe, who suggested the prize should be intercession free.

I agree with Rakeesh and maybe this year's rules took that whole mess into consideration. An earned, ungifted, challenge to the winner really should be intercession free, but maybe this year it went too far.

If you WIN a tournament you shouldn't be subject to the intercession. But I think the giftable grants should be. Ostensibly (and meaning no offence to Kruger or to Napoleon) nothing was done to earn those challenges by their own performance.

[Jake]

If you WIN a tournament you shouldn't be subject to the intercession. But I think the giftable grants should be. Ostensibly (and meaning no offence to Kruger or to Napoleon) nothing was done to earn those challenges by their own performance.

I kinda like this train of thought.

[Morgan le Fay]

If you WIN a tournament you shouldn't be subject to the intercession. But I think the giftable grants should be. Ostensibly (and meaning no offence to Kruger or to Napoleon) nothing was done to earn those challenges by their own performance.

Key word here on "WIN" (not take it as a consolation prize for coming in second, third, or whatever). ETA! I want to erase the sentence before this one, but felt cheesy. If it's won as a prize, whether taken by the winner or second place finisher, I don't really have an issue. Though winning a prize in a double elimination is a lot more meaningful (needing to win more duels against your peers, and closer to getting SOA) than a single elimination.

It bugged me during Madness, don't get me wrong, G. I just told myself just play it out, get those special grants out of the way, and get back to business as usual where I can actually play the OL in what I personally think is a meaningful way.

But then there's one more given, and I'm like, what's the point of the rules if the majority of challenges don't even need to follow the rules?

[Harris]

I crunched the numbers for 2013 in reference to this complaint.

A grand total of 32 Baronial Challenges were issued in 2013 alone. Of those 32 challenges, 4 were intercession free. The three Halloween Grants given to Vanion, Nayun, and Claire as well as Lem's second prize WLT grant given to him for the Winter Cycle tournament in February. That's 4 out of 32 in 2013. That strikes me as being occasional. It doesn't strike me as an effort to circumvent rules or homogenize challenging across the sports. The option for the OL to intercede was there heavily throughout 2013 and still is.

You're a victim of circumstance, Morgan. No more, no less. It doesn't appear occasional to you because you've been Overlord for 2 months and the circumstances have a number of intercession free challenges falling onto your doorstep via Madness and the WLT, which spent several cycles giving away rings instead of challenges. It is not, by any stretch, a majority of challenges falling into the intercession free category. That's hyperbole and based entirely on your two months so far as Overlord. Pause, step back, and look at the broader expanse of DoS in the last year or so for the full picture.

[Morgan le Fay]

Crunch the numbers for 2014. Where are we stats wise in 2014, Harris?

I'd also like to know, since you already gathered the data, of the 32 challenges issued, how many were actually fought? For example, Morgan was challenged twice, but both challenges were rescinded.

[Andrea Anderson]

Crunch the numbers for 2014. Where are we stats wise in 2014, Harris?

I'd also like to know, since you already gathered the data, of the 32 challenges issued, how many were actually fought? And are you only counting barony challenges?

I made this around 4 or so days ago so I apologize if there's anything wrong. I'm not adding anything to the discussion other than numbers. Have fun!

2014

WLT Grants

( Overlord ) -> 1

1: Jaycy - Challenge to Overlord vs Vanion ( Vanion Won )

( Barons ) -> 1

1: Anubis - Challenge to Dragon's Gate vs Shadow ( Anubis Won )

Overlord Grant -> 2

1: Bile - Challenge to Seaside vs Claire ( Claire Won )
2: Lilly - Challenge to Seaside vs Claire ( Lilly Won )

SoA Challenges ( vs Baron ) -> 6

1: Xanth - Challenge to Dockside vs G ( G Won )
2: Nayun - Challenge to Battlefield Park vs Teagan ( Teagan won )
3: Jaycy - Challengee to Dragon's Gate vs Anubis ( Jaycy Won )
4: King - Challenge to Dockside vs G ( G Won )
5: Matt - Challenge to Dragon's Gate vs Jaycy ( Matt Won )
6: Apple - Challenge to Dockside vs G ( No Results Yet )

SoA Challenges ( vs Overlord )

- None -

Baron Challenges Overlord -> 1

Vanion - Challenge to Overlord vs Teagan ( Vanion Won )

MADNESS Grant ( Test Free ) -> 3

Melanie - Challenge to New Haven vs Jake ( Jake Won )
Kruger - Challenge to Old Temple vs Kalamere ( No Results Yet )
Napoleon - Renegade Queue / Challenge to Dockside vs G ( No Results Yet )

Specialty Overlord Grant due to Council -> 1

1: Vinny - Challenge to Overlord vs Morgan ( Morgan Won )

All Together: 15, 4 ( 3x Madness, 1x WLT Baron Prize ) of those being Test Free

[Andrea Anderson]

Also for anyone wanting 2013. These are COMPLETED CHALLENGES. None have been rescinded by my knowledge, except for Sir Cetran's since he was a WLT prize winner.

2013 Challenges

WLT Grants

( Overlord ) -> 4

1: Sir Cetran ( Dropped challenge )
2: Ticallion Carter - Challenge to Overlord Rakeesh ( Rakeesh Won )
3: Ellisa - Challenge to Overlord Rand ( Ellisa Won )
4: Aenlyn Hollow - Challenge to Overlord Teagan ( Teagan Won )

( Baron ) -> 1

1: Lem DeAngelo - Challenge to Old Market vs King ( Lem won )

Overlord Grant -> 3

1: Capistrano - Challenge to Old Temple vs Rakeesh ( Rakeesh Won )
2: Kyra Jessup - Challenge to Seaside vs Apple ( Apple Won )
3: Gren Blockman - Challenge to Battlefield Park vs Vanion ( Vanion Won )

SoA Challenges ( vs Baron ) -> 24

1: Marric Dorsvle - Challenge to Old Temple vs Rakeesh ( Rakeesh Won )
2: G - Challenge to New Haven vs Kheldar ( Kheldar Won )
3: G - Challenge to Dragon's Gate vs Nayun ( G Won )
4: King - Challenge to New Haven vs Kheldar ( King Won )
5: Anubis - Challenge to Old Market vs Lem ( Lem Won )
6: Mur - Challenge to Dragon's Gate vs G ( Mur Won )
7: Nayun - Challenge to Old Temple vs Kalamere ( Kalamere won )
8: Xanth - Challenge to Old Market vs Lem ( Lem Won )
9: Vinny - Challenge to Dockside vs Kheldar ( Kheldar Won )
10: Rakeesh - Challenge to Dragon's Gate vs Mur ( Mur Won )
11: Candy - Challenge to Old Temple vs Kalamere ( Kalamere Won )
12: Jake - Challenge to New Haven vs Joku ( Jake Won )
13: Nayun - Challenge to Battlefield Park vs Matt ( Matt Won )
14: Baphelocutis - Challenge to Dockside vs Kheldar ( Baphelocutis Won )
15: G - Challenge to Seaside vs Apple ( G Won )
16: Elijah - Challenge to Old Market vs Lem ( Elijah Won )
17: Shadow - Challenge to Dragon's Gate vs Mur ( Shadow Won )
18: Rakeesh - Challenge to New Haven vs Jake ( Jake won )
19: King - Challenge to Seaside vs G ( King Won )
20: Candy - Challenge to Old Temple vs Kalamere ( Kalamere Won )
21: Ellisa - Challenge to Dockside vs Baphelocutis ( Baphelocutis Won )
22: Rand - Challenge to Dragon's Gate vs Shadow ( Shadow Won )
23: Apple - Challenge to Old Temple vs Kalamere ( Kalamere Won )
24: Rena - Challenge to New Haven vs Jake ( Jake Won )

SoA Challenges ( vs Overlord ) -> 2

Rand alTan - Challenge to Overlord Rakeesh ( Rand Won )
Teagan - Challenge to Overlord vs Ellisa ( Teagan Won )

Baron Challenges Overlord -> 3

1: Rakeesh, Baron of Old Temple vs Candy ( Rakeesh Wins )
2: Matt, Baron of Battlefield Park vs Rakeesh ( Rakeesh Wins )
3: Mur, Baron of Dragon's Gate vs Rand ( Rand Won )

MADNESS Grant ( Pre - Test Free ) -> 2

Aurast - Challenge to Battlefield Park vs Matt ( Matt Won )
King - Challenge to Dockside vs Imp ( Imp Won )

Halloween Grant -> 3

Claire - Challenge to Seaside vs King ( Claire Won )
Nayun - Challenge to Dockside vs G ( G Won )
Vanion - Challenge to Battlefield Park vs Matt ( Vanion Won )

All Together: 42 Challenges, 4 ( 3x Halloween, 1x WLT Barony Grant ) of those being Test Free

[Andrea Anderson]

and by test free it's supposed to be intercession free.. Sorry about that.

[Morgan le Fay]

Thanks Apple!

OL challenges aren't part of my issue. At no time have I complained about the winner of the WLT getting a test free shot at the Overlord.

I came up with 12 baron challenges in 2014. 3 of them are gifted grants from Madness, one of them granted from the WLT earlier this year. 2 of them are OL grants, which don't have an intercession free clause specifically, but why would an OL grant baron challenges if they have all loyals?

So let's add this one more that's coming up, 13 baronial challenges, 5 of them are intercession free. So far that's about 38% of the challenges that were condition free.

However, not all those challenges were to loyal barons at the time, were they? How many challenges were to loyal barons this year that were actually fought? And how many of those were were condition free?

I'd also argue that the 2013 stats are skewed because of the Hydra bonuses to challenges.

[Jake]

and by test free it's supposed to be intercession free.. Sorry about that.

It's a subtle distinction.

Intercession really only applies to Baronial challenges.

The Test is an Overlord option.

The Overlord can intercede--at will--to protect a Loyal Baron. The Baron doesn't have a choice if the Overlord elects to use that option. (This has resulted in Barons subsequently turning Renegade and challenging the Overlord themselves in the past.)

A Loyal Baron can volunteer to fight for the Overlord, but the Overlord has the right to refuse, and to choose a different format (single duel or best of three). Essentially, this is just a variant of the Test. As the Overlord has the option to name a Loyal Baron...or any other non-Renegade dueler, as their champion in the Test.

So...

A Grant vs. the Overlord will essentially be "Test-free".

A Grant vs. a Baron will be "Intercession-free".

(This is a lot like the difference between Ascension and Assumption...but let's not get into old, old, old Sunday school stuff.)

[Andrea Anderson]

and by test free it's supposed to be intercession free.. Sorry about that.

It's a subtle distinction.

Intercession really only applies to Baronial challenges.

The Test is an Overlord option.

The Overlord can intercede--at will--to protect a Loyal Baron. The Baron doesn't have a choice if the Overlord elects to use that option. (This has resulted in Barons subsequently turning Renegade and challenging the Overlord themselves in the past.)

A Loyal Baron can volunteer to fight for the Overlord, but the Overlord has the right to refuse, and to choose a different format (single duel or best of three). Essentially, this is just a variant of the Test. As the Overlord has the option to name a Loyal Baron...or any other non-Renegade dueler, as their champion in the Test.

So...

A Grant vs. the Overlord will essentially be "Test-free".

A Grant vs. a Baron will be "Intercession-free".

(This is a lot like the difference between Ascension and Assumption...but let's not get into old, old, old Sunday school stuff.)

The correction post was mostly to explain

All Together: 42 Challenges, 4 ( 3x Halloween, 1x WLT Barony Grant ) of those being Test Free

All Together: 15, 4 ( 3x Madness, 1x WLT Baron Prize ) of those being Test Free

Since I had only been counting for baron challenges and not Overlord ones since those only come from the WLT. So it should read,

2013

All Together: 42 Challenges, 4 ( 3x Halloween, 1x WLT Barony Grant ) of those being Intercession Free Barony Challenges

2014

All Together: 15, 4 ( 3x Madness, 1x WLT Baron Prize ) of those being Intercession Free Barony Challenges

But thank you either way for explaining to possibly new players who might not know the difference.