Glass vs Emerald: Something of a Study
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:47 am
I contend that there wide chasm between Glass and Emerald. I will share with you the problems as I see them and give some suggestions in the hopes of bring up a discussion. If the most common complaint is “Why do you use mods against new people?” My concern is not the ranked using mods, but rather the mods themselves and the relationship it shares against the unskilled and/of unranked.
With others having raised their voices in the past and people, myself included, browbeating them into submission, perhaps a new approach of listening to the complaints and looking a bit deeper into the complaint itself is in order? Rather than complain, I offer you over 4,200 words and of effort in attempting to investigate my position.
Yes, this is long. Please forgive any errors.
Disclaimers
What this is NOT:
I am not speaking as a voice of authority. I am not claiming "This game is broken!" This is not telling people they should refrain from engaging the use of their mods on lower ranks. This is not about me whining about not gaining rank. Likewise, I've heard the arguments concerning alts, practice and scouting. I engage in these practices. I have also been dueling like mad and think I have more duels under my belt than any other over the time I've been here (if not, not many have more). It's not 17 years, but I’m not talking from a point of total ignorance as I understand matrix dueling well enough.
I am very aware of my stance when I wrote those long, dramatic posts started by Wild Irish Rover. I still agree with the overall sentiment behind what I've said (use mods, win and be proud of winning, practice a lot and get used to being hit so you’ll get better faster). While I have not reread those posts while writing this one, I do not think that too much of what I'm writing here will be too contradictory. However, perhaps the spirit behind them has eroded a bit. I can only allow you to judge that and question why I may have said one thing then and something else now and if called upon, I will answer them best I can.
What this is:
An argument concerning the fundamental nature of the matrix, how it operates between the sport's lowest rank and the sport's highest non-titled rank and putting into question the logic behind many of the differences. One comment point of advice is to "not duel Emeralds". Well, I question the wisdom of leaving a large chunk of available duelists unavailable to the ranks who are also told to "duel like crazy" with a small group of reoccurring and available duelists any given night.
Opening:
Please try to be open. I feel that some longer tenured and/or successful duelists may want to automatically dismiss what I'm saying here with a wave of their hand or possibly a snarky comment, but please appreciate that this isn't written on a whim and I put a good deal of time and thought into this, as well as having discussed it with several other players on both sides. I'm sure they will repeat their arguments as I am doing now. If my efforts are for some reason misguided, I apologize in advance.
Concerning Glass vs Emerald:
I think that the scoring system is unbalanced. The difference between .5 and 1 via DoS and DoM can be overcome. But not only is the difference between ADV and 1 vast, but it also opens up moves in ways that aren't available to the lower ranks. Add in the quantity of modifications and you are up against an experienced dealer using a stacked deck. That is the crux of my arguments.
Potential Scoring Difference
In DoS, a Warlord has four Fancies that cause only a defensive move to change from .5 to 1 point. If a Warlord lands four fancy defenses and a commoner lands four regular the difference is...
+2
In DoM, a Mage has if a Mage lands all three Foci and the Mage lands the same three moves, the difference is...
+1.5
In DoF, if an Emerald lands all five Fancies (negating the unlikely but possible circumstance that the sixth comes into play should all five land), and the Glass lands the same five, the difference is...
+3 - +5 (possibly +3 - +6)
+ 3 is only if the Glass manages to twice convert, itself a difficult task as the Emerald (or any other) can negate simply by opting to defend their next move. + 4 if one conversion is made and the other three are lost, and + 5 is if none of the ADV are converted. While it's uncommon that any Warlord/Mage/Emerald lands all of their mods, the discrepancy in the potential scoring difference is obvious and for good reason, Fists has stronger mods and more of them.
Examples of How Moves Change Against Fancies
Jab:
A Glass has one move to 1 point against Jab, which is Flip. With mods, this number changes to four. Flip, Duck, Dodge and Arm Block. A big and obvious difference, but those new moves will be revisited.
The imbalance here is simple: If a Glass misses with Flip, Jab is a safe move. You win every exchange with offense, trade with Jab/Chop and only give up a non-point to defense you can defend away. So long as the score isn't something like, 4-3 and you fear the trade to end the match, there's little downside to this decision.
Subsequently, if an Emerald misses Flip and is behind? Fancy Dodge/Duck/Arm Block are all perfectly legitimate moves with Arm Block being sweet in this situation. That post-Flip Jab doesn't look so good.
Leg Sweep:
In Glass vs Glass, a missed Leg Sweep is not terrible. Your opponent may go for an easy defensive move, or they may go for Flip and Jab is still a good move and a follow-up Sweep are all good in this situation. So you're pretty much where you are most of the duel, picking between the Triforce of Glass moves with an some defense thrown in there to keep people honest.
Likewise, how does a Glass go about attacking a Fancied defense if a Leg Sweep in missed? Once sweep is used, the likeliest move from Emerald will be defensive. Your options as a glass is to either defend to negate a mod or try for a Hook or Spin Kick, neither of which land against all three and lose to all the major offensive moves. Either way, this is bad news for the Glass and a low percentage scoring round.
Flip:
A great offensive move against Glass, against rank it becomes more of a risky widow to bed against Emeralds. The primary tool against Jab (and to a lesser extent, Jump Kick and Chop), it now loses you a full point against the popular Dodge and almost as popular Duck, in addition to Snap and Sweep, both common moves. Its saving grace is scoring against Arm Block, however Arm Block is the least attractive of the three maidens for this reason and subsequently the move used least frequently of the Big 3 Emeralds.
The Big 3 Glass vs The Big 3 Emerald:
For a Glass, generally, its main arsenal are the moves Jab, Flip and Leg Sweep
An Emerald still uses these but Flip is not as common and more likely replaced with Jump and Snap. All arguable, but this is not the focus. With the addition of mods, the moves Dodge, Duck and Arm Block become the three sexy sisters once they’re all grown up. With a Fancy, each of these moves only lose to three moves each and there is only one move that defeats all three.
What are the moves they lose to?
Arm Block: Sweep, Spin, Flip
Dodge: Sweep, Spin, Hook
Duck: Sweep, Chop, Snap Kick
Of the three main weapons of the Glass, Jab loses to all, Sweep defeats all, Flip beats one, loses to the other two. What's a Glass to do if they miss their Leg Sweep?
Well, Jump Kick and Snap Kick are popular enough. How do they fare?
Jump Kick - Loses to all 3
Snap Kick – Beats Duck, Loses to Arm Block and Dodge
Well, that's no good either. What about Chop? That's not useless.
Chop - Wins vs Duck, Loses to Arm Block and Dodge
Those are the same results as Snap Kick! What about Uppercut? I use that when I'm feeling cheeky...
Uppercut: Loses to all 3
Those are the same results as Jump Kick! So against three powerful defensive moves, we have copied results…
JK and UC = Lose vs AB, DO and DK
SnK and Chop = Wins vs Duck, Loses to Arm Block and Dodge
That's weird. Why was it made that way? Maybe no one saw this when they made the matrix? There has to something to use against these moves. What’s left?
Hook and Spin Kick
HK: Beats Dodge, Loses to Duck and Arm Block (and almost everything else of consequence)
SpK: Beats Arm Block and Dodge, Loses to Duck (and every other offensive move)
What can you say? Aside from Sweep, the only offensive alternative that defeats more than one of these is Spin Kick, which also loses to every single offensive move, in addition to Duck. The only other move to hit Dodge is Hook, which is just about its only useful function since no one is going to use it to try to catch Leap or Spin Kick unless they have nothing to lose. So the tools to use against these defenses no matter what the situation are limited and can prompt one to want to use Sweep constantly, and if one misses with it, the next round is something of a horror show of offensive selections, or must defend with the best result being earning a point that doesn't maybe wont count.
Fancy Dodge
When is it not a good time to use this move against a Glass? Duck and Arm Block are powerful but both lose to two common/semi-common moves. Dodge loses to Sweep, the situational but risky Spin Kick and the almost useless Hook. The only round this is not a good move is the round you think the Glass will sweep you off your feet or might be considering a defensive move themselves. In the latter case it's still a good time to use it as you have six modifiers at your disposal and can fire them off without worry.
How is this different from other ranks? Feints of course. The natural disaster to Fancy Dodge is something like Feint Jab. This turns the game on its head and changes it into something different and is probably the appeal of the sport. The Glass rank does not have this tool and so by simply using the defensive moves many times over against an opponent whose best and most reliable scoring methods are offensive moves and the seesaw tilt becomes apparent.
ADV:
The ADV is the bastard stepchild of the dueling scoring system. It’s the only non-scoring score. A successful Glass defense often has no other net benefits, other than psychological bamboozlement, to using defense consistently. This gets into the nature of the ADV. Often times being right leaves one uncompensated. An ADV is only good if you can convert it, a feat which is easily thwarted by the opponent choosing to use a defense themselves.
Sample Duel 1: Glass vs Emerald
01. Leg Sweep – Jab 0-1
02. Dodge – Fancy Dodge 0-1
03. Duck – Jab 0+-1
04. Leap – Leg Sweep 1-1
05. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 2-1
06. Dodge – Jab 2+-1
07. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 3-1
08. Snap Kick – Jump Kick 3-2
09. Flip – Jab 4-2
10. Snap Kick – Jump Kick 4-3
11. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 5-4
The score says 5-4. When I look at this, I see something very different. The opponent scored three times, R1, R8 and R10. There was one trade, R11. Glass scored six times, R3, R4, R5, R6, R7, R9. Three were three Glass defenses, once converted. There were three Emerald Fancies, none landed.
So, if all moves were being counted as equal, this was a 6-3 (or 7-4 w/ trade) duel. How do you out guess your opponent twice as much and only end by winning by one? I would also add that in this duel, R2 (Dodge - Fancy Dodge) I also consider a correct round, akin to Disengaging to thwart an incoming Fancy, but with the Fancies here more powerful, it's importance is heightened. Does it deserve a score? Of course not, but the importance is felt. After the duel, this opponent IMed me and commented how it felt like I was reading their mind. This stuck with me because I too felt I had this match under control from the very beginning, yet it was in no way reflected in the score, from my perspective.
It got me wondering about the difference the mods made in real duels. This was my most recent duel.
Sample Duel 2: Glass vs Emerald
01. Dodge – Fancy Dodge 0-0
02. Jab – Snap Kick 1-0
03. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 2-1
04. Dodge – Fancy Duck 2-1
05. Jab – Jab 3-2
06. Jump Kick – Fancy Dodge 3-3
07. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 4-4
08. Chop – Fancy Dodge 5-4
What can I say? Four fancies in eight rounds, three Fancy Dodges including the opener, three trades leading to a 2-1 loss, both points by Fancy. I perceive this to be an obvious steamrolling effort (and I’m not critical of the steamrolling effort). Is it safe to assume that had the duel continued the other two mods would have been seen? Maybe. Maybe not. What does this duel look like reversed the ranks, I wonder?
Sample Duel 2: REVERSED Emerald vs Glass
01. Fancy Dodge – Dodge 0-0
02. Jab – Snap Kick 1-0
03. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 2-1
04. Fancy Dodge – Duck 2-1
05. Jab – Jab 3-2
06. Jump Kick – Dodge 3-2+
07. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 4-3
08. Chop – Dodge 4-3+
Oh, the duel isn’t over yet. Weird, huh? I’m winning without landing a Fancy. What do you think my next move should me? Fancy Dodge works well for me here, don’t you think? Unless opponent Sweeps, I either win or am up 4-3 and negate that ADV.
I’ll pick another duel at random vs an Emerald, just to compare.
Sample Duel 3: Glass vs Emerald
01. Flip – Snap Kick 0-1
02. Dodge – Leg Sweep 0-2
03. Leg Sweep – Snap Kick 0-3
04. Flip – Jab 1-3
05. Jump Kick - Fancy Arm Block 1-4
06. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 2-4
07. Snap Kick – Leg Sweep 3-4
08. Dodge – Jab 3+-4
09. Duck – Jump Kick 4-4
10. Leg Sweep – Jab 4-5
Hmm… this was a 5-5 duel. Fancy Arm Block after Flip, converted defense, caught looking for a fancy at the end and only two defenses used with one landed. Not much in this one that suggests fancy made a huge impact. Reversed?
Sample Duel 3: REVERSED Emerald vs Glass
01. Flip – Snap Kick 0-1
02. Fancy Dodge – Leg Sweep 0-2
03. Leg Sweep – Snap Kick 0-3
04. Flip – Jab 1-3
05. Jump Kick - Arm Block 1-3+
06. Leg Sweep – Dodge 2-3
07. Snap Kick – Leg Sweep 3-3
08. Fancy Dodge – Jab 4-3
09. Fancy Duck – Jump Kick 5-3
10. Leg Sweep – Jab N/A
Wow, now that’s something else, isn’t it? From 5-4 loss in 10 to 5-3 win in 9. That’s a pretty big swing 3 point swing in the scoring simply by changing the availability of modifiers. What do you say, one more?
Sample Duel 4: Glass vs Emerald
01. Snap Kick – Jab 0-1
02. Dodge - Leg Sweep 0-2
03. Leg Sweep – Uppercut 1-2
04. Snap Kick – Flip 2-2
05. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 3-2
06. Chop – Fancy Duck 4-2
07. Jab - Fancy Dodge 4-3
08. Chop – Jab 5-4
Not much to say with this one. Only one Fancy landed. Ranks reversed turns this into a 5-3 victory (Fancy Dodge score negated).
Final example. Remember the first duel, the one where I said I felt like I had it secured from the beginning? Ranks reversing…
Sample Duel 1: REVERSED Emerald vs Glass
01. Leg Sweep – Jab 0-1
02. Fancy Dodge – Dodge 0-1
03. Fancy Duck – Jab 1-1
04. Fancy Leap – Leg Sweep 2-1
05. Leg Sweep – Dodge 3-1
06. Fancy Dodge – Jab 4-1
07. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 5-1
08. Snap Kick – Jump Kick N/A
09. Flip – Jab N/A
10. Snap Kick – Jump Kick N/A
11. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep N/A
It turns into 5-1 victory in 7, instead of a 5-4 victory in 11. It’s quite marvelous when you look at it like this.
I’m sure we could find dramatic swings in the scores with all of the ranks in all the sports, but these were from my own collection and the last two picked at random (random by selecting someone I’ve dueled multiple times and picking the first duel with them I found). This may not conclusive of a scoring issue but it does have a strong suggestion that links with the discrepancy in potential scoring difference due to mods mentioned earlier. It would be interesting to take a large sample of Glass vs Emerald matches and in addition to rank reversal, changing the moves to all fancies. In this small sample, the shift when considering the is dramatic a couple of these.
One turns a close, long win into a quick and easy win, a loss into a win, lost duel into a winning position and the last only a one point shift. What would be interesting would be to have a collection of Lowest vs Highest duels and play around with to see what the discrepancies are. One may not be able to come to any conclusive evidence as things like duelist skill would not be accounted for and simply shifting fanices from one side to the other does not mean that the duelists would fight the same duel under the same circumstances. On the other hand I think it worth investigating further.
Feints:
This is not much of an issue overall. As a Glass, I’ve only had a few used against me, have not heard other Glass complain much about this and only once that I can recall did I alter my choice of move due to the thought of a possible incoming Feint and it was in the final round of my most recent duel.
Questions:
Is DoF the “hard” Duel?
I’ve had this argument spring up a couple of times. Swords is the most balanced of the games. It’s fun, easy to learn, the matrix is small, compact and uncomplicated. Everything feels right while you play and it’s worst quality is going for an obvious 50/50 and losing. I’ve played DoM a few times and practiced many more and I have to say that I rather liked it this time around. None of the moves felt overpowered and I liked the Focus system. It’s a neat little twist to have a 1.5 move or a 1-.5 trade. If there’s a criticism, maybe it’s that it’s too balanced and many moves feel perfectly viable at the same time rather than a couple. But if your biggest fault is a nitpick then you’re doing a good job.
DoF, in contrast is the most challenging. An argument I've heard is that to make alterations to ease the burden between Glass and Emerald would make it too much like Swords and “kill” the game. I take this kind of talk as hyperbole as "kill", in this instance means, "change". If the opposite of the 1.5 is the ADV, then the game is the opposite of balanced. 3 Foci to 6 Fancy/Feints comes across as excessive. I would argue that the matrix and mod system are the most unfriendly to new people unless they only fight each other.
If this statement is correct, and there is no desire for alterations, should it not be labeled as such as a potential warning to incoming players?
Is suggesting rank segregation in order to achieve rank advancements a good idea?:
If my analysis is correct and alterations are not made, is that preferable to encouraging all ranks to duel anyone available? The reason why I ask is because it’s hard for me to justify this indulgence. With a good night’s turnout of 15 in rooms and some of which are there only to RP, is not the goal to attract more players and to retain them?
This is the major shift in my previous posts that I’ve made. I have felt the frustration of dueling against rank and how difficult it has been. Asking ranks use mods against the non/low ranks may have been a bit misguided but I now feel that it was coming from someone who’s been steamrolled. I don’t know. What I do know is dueling like that is not fun. You can feel like closing your eyes and throwing a dart to choose your move. While I am sure there are those who have gone against the gain and succeeded, maybe there are plenty others who are ashes against the grain who’d still be around otherwise. I don’t know this either.
Has Wild Irish Rover dueled since that post was put up?
Is nothing wrong with DoF
Of course I must ask this. Sometimes people will say, “There’s nothing wrong with the DoF” and then followup with statements like, “The problem is…” and declare one issue the problem.
Is the problem the higher ranks beating up on the lowbodies... or not having enough lowbodies?
Let me answer that question with another question… If the problem not enough bodies, how is this fixed? If there are not enough bodies and the higher ranks beat up the lower ranks, then why not bring in more balance in an attempt to fix both?
Suggestions:
I don’t know if these are good but this is what I have. Maybe you think these are bad ideas for reasons I have not thought up. Maybe you have more ideas or better ideas. These are mine.
.5 Scores:
The most obvious is for direct compensation for a successful round. Matrix opened to all for the same reasons. Glass vs Glass matches would look different but would also be more balanced with Glass vs Rank.
Carry over advantages:
If the taste of .5 be considered unpalatable, strengthen the ADV. Rather than an ADV being lost the next round if not converted, have be carried over if both duelists defend the next round. If ADV player switches from defense to offense, then it is lost. I can figure out role play rationales for this very easily and could display a few if called upon.
Matrix adjustments:
The matrix has some ugly spots that work against the Glass where there are Fancies involved. Weaken some moves, strengthen others: Fancy Dodge is a monster while others moves like Hook and Leg Block are either terribly situational or near useless other than for psychological warfare. A better balance with some of the moves and giving duelists more options may be better. The changes need not be dramtic, but having Hook hit Arm Block or and the Big 3 defense losing to an additional move might be beneficial.
Fewer Mods:
With the strength of the mods being as potent as they are, fewer mods is also an option. Many wonder why more mods are given to the higher ranks than are needed to win a duel. This option is more of a band aid than a solution. However, six is a silly number. When you can win the game using nothing but mods and still have something leftover, it seems excessive, more so when lower ranks are hit with many Fancy Dodge.
Accepting duels with no/few mods:
I also consider this a cheap band-aid fix. It places the pressure on the new people and we know that everyone is not going to be willing to do this or offer it from the good gracious parts of their heart. Likewise, one’s own inclination towards working for one’s own self interest with eventually, and rightfully I would argue, win out and this discussion will happen again.
Conclusion
The analogy I used when talking last night about Glass vs Emerald was "trying to walk to the top of a seesaw with no one sitting on it." It's not quite accurate as it's not impossible to beat an Emerald using all of their fancies in dominant fashion, but it's very difficult and one needs to be very careful in their decision making in order to achieve it. Emeralds have more tools. Their moves are more effective and more efficient leading to the easier accumulation of wins for those advantages. If the game is trying to attract and retain new players my suggestions are to either balance the matrix to give Glass more tools, to cut back on the number of mods dealt out or to strengthen the ADV. If the game wants to be retained as it is, is a simple warning that Fists is considered more difficult (at least in this regard) unwarranted?
These are my thoughts and opinions. What I call "balance" others may want to call "watered down". I used the latter phrase myself in the Wild Irish Rover post. Maybe the difference between a Glass and an Emerald is not as large to you as it is to me. Maybe it's bigger. While I know the Fancy/Feint system has been changed three times over the years, I have to wonder if the matrix has undergone any changes?
I eagerly await your responses.
With others having raised their voices in the past and people, myself included, browbeating them into submission, perhaps a new approach of listening to the complaints and looking a bit deeper into the complaint itself is in order? Rather than complain, I offer you over 4,200 words and of effort in attempting to investigate my position.
Yes, this is long. Please forgive any errors.
Disclaimers
What this is NOT:
I am not speaking as a voice of authority. I am not claiming "This game is broken!" This is not telling people they should refrain from engaging the use of their mods on lower ranks. This is not about me whining about not gaining rank. Likewise, I've heard the arguments concerning alts, practice and scouting. I engage in these practices. I have also been dueling like mad and think I have more duels under my belt than any other over the time I've been here (if not, not many have more). It's not 17 years, but I’m not talking from a point of total ignorance as I understand matrix dueling well enough.
I am very aware of my stance when I wrote those long, dramatic posts started by Wild Irish Rover. I still agree with the overall sentiment behind what I've said (use mods, win and be proud of winning, practice a lot and get used to being hit so you’ll get better faster). While I have not reread those posts while writing this one, I do not think that too much of what I'm writing here will be too contradictory. However, perhaps the spirit behind them has eroded a bit. I can only allow you to judge that and question why I may have said one thing then and something else now and if called upon, I will answer them best I can.
What this is:
An argument concerning the fundamental nature of the matrix, how it operates between the sport's lowest rank and the sport's highest non-titled rank and putting into question the logic behind many of the differences. One comment point of advice is to "not duel Emeralds". Well, I question the wisdom of leaving a large chunk of available duelists unavailable to the ranks who are also told to "duel like crazy" with a small group of reoccurring and available duelists any given night.
Opening:
Please try to be open. I feel that some longer tenured and/or successful duelists may want to automatically dismiss what I'm saying here with a wave of their hand or possibly a snarky comment, but please appreciate that this isn't written on a whim and I put a good deal of time and thought into this, as well as having discussed it with several other players on both sides. I'm sure they will repeat their arguments as I am doing now. If my efforts are for some reason misguided, I apologize in advance.
Concerning Glass vs Emerald:
I think that the scoring system is unbalanced. The difference between .5 and 1 via DoS and DoM can be overcome. But not only is the difference between ADV and 1 vast, but it also opens up moves in ways that aren't available to the lower ranks. Add in the quantity of modifications and you are up against an experienced dealer using a stacked deck. That is the crux of my arguments.
Potential Scoring Difference
In DoS, a Warlord has four Fancies that cause only a defensive move to change from .5 to 1 point. If a Warlord lands four fancy defenses and a commoner lands four regular the difference is...
+2
In DoM, a Mage has if a Mage lands all three Foci and the Mage lands the same three moves, the difference is...
+1.5
In DoF, if an Emerald lands all five Fancies (negating the unlikely but possible circumstance that the sixth comes into play should all five land), and the Glass lands the same five, the difference is...
+3 - +5 (possibly +3 - +6)
+ 3 is only if the Glass manages to twice convert, itself a difficult task as the Emerald (or any other) can negate simply by opting to defend their next move. + 4 if one conversion is made and the other three are lost, and + 5 is if none of the ADV are converted. While it's uncommon that any Warlord/Mage/Emerald lands all of their mods, the discrepancy in the potential scoring difference is obvious and for good reason, Fists has stronger mods and more of them.
Examples of How Moves Change Against Fancies
Jab:
A Glass has one move to 1 point against Jab, which is Flip. With mods, this number changes to four. Flip, Duck, Dodge and Arm Block. A big and obvious difference, but those new moves will be revisited.
The imbalance here is simple: If a Glass misses with Flip, Jab is a safe move. You win every exchange with offense, trade with Jab/Chop and only give up a non-point to defense you can defend away. So long as the score isn't something like, 4-3 and you fear the trade to end the match, there's little downside to this decision.
Subsequently, if an Emerald misses Flip and is behind? Fancy Dodge/Duck/Arm Block are all perfectly legitimate moves with Arm Block being sweet in this situation. That post-Flip Jab doesn't look so good.
Leg Sweep:
In Glass vs Glass, a missed Leg Sweep is not terrible. Your opponent may go for an easy defensive move, or they may go for Flip and Jab is still a good move and a follow-up Sweep are all good in this situation. So you're pretty much where you are most of the duel, picking between the Triforce of Glass moves with an some defense thrown in there to keep people honest.
Likewise, how does a Glass go about attacking a Fancied defense if a Leg Sweep in missed? Once sweep is used, the likeliest move from Emerald will be defensive. Your options as a glass is to either defend to negate a mod or try for a Hook or Spin Kick, neither of which land against all three and lose to all the major offensive moves. Either way, this is bad news for the Glass and a low percentage scoring round.
Flip:
A great offensive move against Glass, against rank it becomes more of a risky widow to bed against Emeralds. The primary tool against Jab (and to a lesser extent, Jump Kick and Chop), it now loses you a full point against the popular Dodge and almost as popular Duck, in addition to Snap and Sweep, both common moves. Its saving grace is scoring against Arm Block, however Arm Block is the least attractive of the three maidens for this reason and subsequently the move used least frequently of the Big 3 Emeralds.
The Big 3 Glass vs The Big 3 Emerald:
For a Glass, generally, its main arsenal are the moves Jab, Flip and Leg Sweep
An Emerald still uses these but Flip is not as common and more likely replaced with Jump and Snap. All arguable, but this is not the focus. With the addition of mods, the moves Dodge, Duck and Arm Block become the three sexy sisters once they’re all grown up. With a Fancy, each of these moves only lose to three moves each and there is only one move that defeats all three.
What are the moves they lose to?
Arm Block: Sweep, Spin, Flip
Dodge: Sweep, Spin, Hook
Duck: Sweep, Chop, Snap Kick
Of the three main weapons of the Glass, Jab loses to all, Sweep defeats all, Flip beats one, loses to the other two. What's a Glass to do if they miss their Leg Sweep?
Well, Jump Kick and Snap Kick are popular enough. How do they fare?
Jump Kick - Loses to all 3
Snap Kick – Beats Duck, Loses to Arm Block and Dodge
Well, that's no good either. What about Chop? That's not useless.
Chop - Wins vs Duck, Loses to Arm Block and Dodge
Those are the same results as Snap Kick! What about Uppercut? I use that when I'm feeling cheeky...
Uppercut: Loses to all 3
Those are the same results as Jump Kick! So against three powerful defensive moves, we have copied results…
JK and UC = Lose vs AB, DO and DK
SnK and Chop = Wins vs Duck, Loses to Arm Block and Dodge
That's weird. Why was it made that way? Maybe no one saw this when they made the matrix? There has to something to use against these moves. What’s left?
Hook and Spin Kick
HK: Beats Dodge, Loses to Duck and Arm Block (and almost everything else of consequence)
SpK: Beats Arm Block and Dodge, Loses to Duck (and every other offensive move)
What can you say? Aside from Sweep, the only offensive alternative that defeats more than one of these is Spin Kick, which also loses to every single offensive move, in addition to Duck. The only other move to hit Dodge is Hook, which is just about its only useful function since no one is going to use it to try to catch Leap or Spin Kick unless they have nothing to lose. So the tools to use against these defenses no matter what the situation are limited and can prompt one to want to use Sweep constantly, and if one misses with it, the next round is something of a horror show of offensive selections, or must defend with the best result being earning a point that doesn't maybe wont count.
Fancy Dodge
When is it not a good time to use this move against a Glass? Duck and Arm Block are powerful but both lose to two common/semi-common moves. Dodge loses to Sweep, the situational but risky Spin Kick and the almost useless Hook. The only round this is not a good move is the round you think the Glass will sweep you off your feet or might be considering a defensive move themselves. In the latter case it's still a good time to use it as you have six modifiers at your disposal and can fire them off without worry.
How is this different from other ranks? Feints of course. The natural disaster to Fancy Dodge is something like Feint Jab. This turns the game on its head and changes it into something different and is probably the appeal of the sport. The Glass rank does not have this tool and so by simply using the defensive moves many times over against an opponent whose best and most reliable scoring methods are offensive moves and the seesaw tilt becomes apparent.
ADV:
The ADV is the bastard stepchild of the dueling scoring system. It’s the only non-scoring score. A successful Glass defense often has no other net benefits, other than psychological bamboozlement, to using defense consistently. This gets into the nature of the ADV. Often times being right leaves one uncompensated. An ADV is only good if you can convert it, a feat which is easily thwarted by the opponent choosing to use a defense themselves.
Sample Duel 1: Glass vs Emerald
01. Leg Sweep – Jab 0-1
02. Dodge – Fancy Dodge 0-1
03. Duck – Jab 0+-1
04. Leap – Leg Sweep 1-1
05. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 2-1
06. Dodge – Jab 2+-1
07. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 3-1
08. Snap Kick – Jump Kick 3-2
09. Flip – Jab 4-2
10. Snap Kick – Jump Kick 4-3
11. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 5-4
The score says 5-4. When I look at this, I see something very different. The opponent scored three times, R1, R8 and R10. There was one trade, R11. Glass scored six times, R3, R4, R5, R6, R7, R9. Three were three Glass defenses, once converted. There were three Emerald Fancies, none landed.
So, if all moves were being counted as equal, this was a 6-3 (or 7-4 w/ trade) duel. How do you out guess your opponent twice as much and only end by winning by one? I would also add that in this duel, R2 (Dodge - Fancy Dodge) I also consider a correct round, akin to Disengaging to thwart an incoming Fancy, but with the Fancies here more powerful, it's importance is heightened. Does it deserve a score? Of course not, but the importance is felt. After the duel, this opponent IMed me and commented how it felt like I was reading their mind. This stuck with me because I too felt I had this match under control from the very beginning, yet it was in no way reflected in the score, from my perspective.
It got me wondering about the difference the mods made in real duels. This was my most recent duel.
Sample Duel 2: Glass vs Emerald
01. Dodge – Fancy Dodge 0-0
02. Jab – Snap Kick 1-0
03. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 2-1
04. Dodge – Fancy Duck 2-1
05. Jab – Jab 3-2
06. Jump Kick – Fancy Dodge 3-3
07. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 4-4
08. Chop – Fancy Dodge 5-4
What can I say? Four fancies in eight rounds, three Fancy Dodges including the opener, three trades leading to a 2-1 loss, both points by Fancy. I perceive this to be an obvious steamrolling effort (and I’m not critical of the steamrolling effort). Is it safe to assume that had the duel continued the other two mods would have been seen? Maybe. Maybe not. What does this duel look like reversed the ranks, I wonder?
Sample Duel 2: REVERSED Emerald vs Glass
01. Fancy Dodge – Dodge 0-0
02. Jab – Snap Kick 1-0
03. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 2-1
04. Fancy Dodge – Duck 2-1
05. Jab – Jab 3-2
06. Jump Kick – Dodge 3-2+
07. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep 4-3
08. Chop – Dodge 4-3+
Oh, the duel isn’t over yet. Weird, huh? I’m winning without landing a Fancy. What do you think my next move should me? Fancy Dodge works well for me here, don’t you think? Unless opponent Sweeps, I either win or am up 4-3 and negate that ADV.
I’ll pick another duel at random vs an Emerald, just to compare.
Sample Duel 3: Glass vs Emerald
01. Flip – Snap Kick 0-1
02. Dodge – Leg Sweep 0-2
03. Leg Sweep – Snap Kick 0-3
04. Flip – Jab 1-3
05. Jump Kick - Fancy Arm Block 1-4
06. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 2-4
07. Snap Kick – Leg Sweep 3-4
08. Dodge – Jab 3+-4
09. Duck – Jump Kick 4-4
10. Leg Sweep – Jab 4-5
Hmm… this was a 5-5 duel. Fancy Arm Block after Flip, converted defense, caught looking for a fancy at the end and only two defenses used with one landed. Not much in this one that suggests fancy made a huge impact. Reversed?
Sample Duel 3: REVERSED Emerald vs Glass
01. Flip – Snap Kick 0-1
02. Fancy Dodge – Leg Sweep 0-2
03. Leg Sweep – Snap Kick 0-3
04. Flip – Jab 1-3
05. Jump Kick - Arm Block 1-3+
06. Leg Sweep – Dodge 2-3
07. Snap Kick – Leg Sweep 3-3
08. Fancy Dodge – Jab 4-3
09. Fancy Duck – Jump Kick 5-3
10. Leg Sweep – Jab N/A
Wow, now that’s something else, isn’t it? From 5-4 loss in 10 to 5-3 win in 9. That’s a pretty big swing 3 point swing in the scoring simply by changing the availability of modifiers. What do you say, one more?
Sample Duel 4: Glass vs Emerald
01. Snap Kick – Jab 0-1
02. Dodge - Leg Sweep 0-2
03. Leg Sweep – Uppercut 1-2
04. Snap Kick – Flip 2-2
05. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 3-2
06. Chop – Fancy Duck 4-2
07. Jab - Fancy Dodge 4-3
08. Chop – Jab 5-4
Not much to say with this one. Only one Fancy landed. Ranks reversed turns this into a 5-3 victory (Fancy Dodge score negated).
Final example. Remember the first duel, the one where I said I felt like I had it secured from the beginning? Ranks reversing…
Sample Duel 1: REVERSED Emerald vs Glass
01. Leg Sweep – Jab 0-1
02. Fancy Dodge – Dodge 0-1
03. Fancy Duck – Jab 1-1
04. Fancy Leap – Leg Sweep 2-1
05. Leg Sweep – Dodge 3-1
06. Fancy Dodge – Jab 4-1
07. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 5-1
08. Snap Kick – Jump Kick N/A
09. Flip – Jab N/A
10. Snap Kick – Jump Kick N/A
11. Leg Sweep – Leg Sweep N/A
It turns into 5-1 victory in 7, instead of a 5-4 victory in 11. It’s quite marvelous when you look at it like this.
I’m sure we could find dramatic swings in the scores with all of the ranks in all the sports, but these were from my own collection and the last two picked at random (random by selecting someone I’ve dueled multiple times and picking the first duel with them I found). This may not conclusive of a scoring issue but it does have a strong suggestion that links with the discrepancy in potential scoring difference due to mods mentioned earlier. It would be interesting to take a large sample of Glass vs Emerald matches and in addition to rank reversal, changing the moves to all fancies. In this small sample, the shift when considering the is dramatic a couple of these.
One turns a close, long win into a quick and easy win, a loss into a win, lost duel into a winning position and the last only a one point shift. What would be interesting would be to have a collection of Lowest vs Highest duels and play around with to see what the discrepancies are. One may not be able to come to any conclusive evidence as things like duelist skill would not be accounted for and simply shifting fanices from one side to the other does not mean that the duelists would fight the same duel under the same circumstances. On the other hand I think it worth investigating further.
Feints:
This is not much of an issue overall. As a Glass, I’ve only had a few used against me, have not heard other Glass complain much about this and only once that I can recall did I alter my choice of move due to the thought of a possible incoming Feint and it was in the final round of my most recent duel.
Questions:
Is DoF the “hard” Duel?
I’ve had this argument spring up a couple of times. Swords is the most balanced of the games. It’s fun, easy to learn, the matrix is small, compact and uncomplicated. Everything feels right while you play and it’s worst quality is going for an obvious 50/50 and losing. I’ve played DoM a few times and practiced many more and I have to say that I rather liked it this time around. None of the moves felt overpowered and I liked the Focus system. It’s a neat little twist to have a 1.5 move or a 1-.5 trade. If there’s a criticism, maybe it’s that it’s too balanced and many moves feel perfectly viable at the same time rather than a couple. But if your biggest fault is a nitpick then you’re doing a good job.
DoF, in contrast is the most challenging. An argument I've heard is that to make alterations to ease the burden between Glass and Emerald would make it too much like Swords and “kill” the game. I take this kind of talk as hyperbole as "kill", in this instance means, "change". If the opposite of the 1.5 is the ADV, then the game is the opposite of balanced. 3 Foci to 6 Fancy/Feints comes across as excessive. I would argue that the matrix and mod system are the most unfriendly to new people unless they only fight each other.
If this statement is correct, and there is no desire for alterations, should it not be labeled as such as a potential warning to incoming players?
Is suggesting rank segregation in order to achieve rank advancements a good idea?:
If my analysis is correct and alterations are not made, is that preferable to encouraging all ranks to duel anyone available? The reason why I ask is because it’s hard for me to justify this indulgence. With a good night’s turnout of 15 in rooms and some of which are there only to RP, is not the goal to attract more players and to retain them?
This is the major shift in my previous posts that I’ve made. I have felt the frustration of dueling against rank and how difficult it has been. Asking ranks use mods against the non/low ranks may have been a bit misguided but I now feel that it was coming from someone who’s been steamrolled. I don’t know. What I do know is dueling like that is not fun. You can feel like closing your eyes and throwing a dart to choose your move. While I am sure there are those who have gone against the gain and succeeded, maybe there are plenty others who are ashes against the grain who’d still be around otherwise. I don’t know this either.
Has Wild Irish Rover dueled since that post was put up?
Is nothing wrong with DoF
Of course I must ask this. Sometimes people will say, “There’s nothing wrong with the DoF” and then followup with statements like, “The problem is…” and declare one issue the problem.
Is the problem the higher ranks beating up on the lowbodies... or not having enough lowbodies?
Let me answer that question with another question… If the problem not enough bodies, how is this fixed? If there are not enough bodies and the higher ranks beat up the lower ranks, then why not bring in more balance in an attempt to fix both?
Suggestions:
I don’t know if these are good but this is what I have. Maybe you think these are bad ideas for reasons I have not thought up. Maybe you have more ideas or better ideas. These are mine.
.5 Scores:
The most obvious is for direct compensation for a successful round. Matrix opened to all for the same reasons. Glass vs Glass matches would look different but would also be more balanced with Glass vs Rank.
Carry over advantages:
If the taste of .5 be considered unpalatable, strengthen the ADV. Rather than an ADV being lost the next round if not converted, have be carried over if both duelists defend the next round. If ADV player switches from defense to offense, then it is lost. I can figure out role play rationales for this very easily and could display a few if called upon.
Matrix adjustments:
The matrix has some ugly spots that work against the Glass where there are Fancies involved. Weaken some moves, strengthen others: Fancy Dodge is a monster while others moves like Hook and Leg Block are either terribly situational or near useless other than for psychological warfare. A better balance with some of the moves and giving duelists more options may be better. The changes need not be dramtic, but having Hook hit Arm Block or and the Big 3 defense losing to an additional move might be beneficial.
Fewer Mods:
With the strength of the mods being as potent as they are, fewer mods is also an option. Many wonder why more mods are given to the higher ranks than are needed to win a duel. This option is more of a band aid than a solution. However, six is a silly number. When you can win the game using nothing but mods and still have something leftover, it seems excessive, more so when lower ranks are hit with many Fancy Dodge.
Accepting duels with no/few mods:
I also consider this a cheap band-aid fix. It places the pressure on the new people and we know that everyone is not going to be willing to do this or offer it from the good gracious parts of their heart. Likewise, one’s own inclination towards working for one’s own self interest with eventually, and rightfully I would argue, win out and this discussion will happen again.
Conclusion
The analogy I used when talking last night about Glass vs Emerald was "trying to walk to the top of a seesaw with no one sitting on it." It's not quite accurate as it's not impossible to beat an Emerald using all of their fancies in dominant fashion, but it's very difficult and one needs to be very careful in their decision making in order to achieve it. Emeralds have more tools. Their moves are more effective and more efficient leading to the easier accumulation of wins for those advantages. If the game is trying to attract and retain new players my suggestions are to either balance the matrix to give Glass more tools, to cut back on the number of mods dealt out or to strengthen the ADV. If the game wants to be retained as it is, is a simple warning that Fists is considered more difficult (at least in this regard) unwarranted?
These are my thoughts and opinions. What I call "balance" others may want to call "watered down". I used the latter phrase myself in the Wild Irish Rover post. Maybe the difference between a Glass and an Emerald is not as large to you as it is to me. Maybe it's bigger. While I know the Fancy/Feint system has been changed three times over the years, I have to wonder if the matrix has undergone any changes?
I eagerly await your responses.
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