Stories from RhyDin & The Rings

Welp. I just shut out the Bot on Overlord 5 - 0 in 5. Time to officially retire from DoS for good because I am pretty sure I just peaked.

If you click view source you can find out more about how the bot was built and what percentages it uses.

If you want a DoM practice tool, just File->download this. I was going to make a fists tool but I got bored and lazy.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2MlcBA ... VqcE0/edit

Jake wrote:

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:I remember a novelty program like this existing in the Team Dueling League, back in '98 or '99, that I used to mess around with. Does that little DoS robot still exist? The one that had the fencing silhouettes for each move? Open the closet and dust that sucker off and get it on the "Getting Started" tab.

If you are referring to this one, it's still around, and still works. http://www.duelingzone.com/dz/games/index.cfm

That's the one! I'm glad to see that it still exists.

Goldglo wrote:That CPU tool is a pain in the rear to beat, esp. when it's on Overlord/Baron.

I played me Commoner, it Overlord. After it did a Fancy Circular Parry, I Low Cut and it did a Fancy Duck. So, there it's not perfect and can be beaten. The score was 5-4. It's fun though.

Second time, same ranks, destroyed it 5-2 in 7. It failed on a Fancy Dis and a Slash and fell to the mighty power of a triple cut.

Fancy Dis. I never thought Kalamere a showoff. But I jest...

I like this little tool.

DUEL Goblin wrote:If you click view source you can find out more about how the bot was built and what percentages it uses.

If you want a DoM practice tool, just File->download this. I was going to make a fists tool but I got bored and lazy.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2MlcBA ... VqcE0/edit

I clicked on it and all that I see is code. Am I missing something?

Yes, apparently the ability to follow directions. I'm using it now.

Yeah, now this is what I'm talking about. Won Apprentice/Apprentice 5-4. I still don't know what I'm doing, but at least now I can experiment. This and the DoS one belong in the Getting Started tab. Good find!

The only improvement I can think for it would be place where the results of the rounds are listed as the match progresses. I personally have no problem jotting down the results myself to look for patterns, but a newcomer may not think to do so.

Regardless, it's a nice tool.

Also created an expected values calculator, though it only works for swords. It lets me quickly run villain's move range in blue using up/down keys to enter percentages, then it calculates the EV of my moves in real time. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2MlcBA ... Zqazg/edit Its IE-specific though...

Not sure how helpful to a total newcomer, but I like seeing actual numbers on the value of each move. Also given accurate villain range, it tells me what percentage breakdown my own moves should be relative to each other. Shared with my hydra team but figure I'd offer here if you're interested.

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:

Sylus Kurgen wrote: Losing shouldn't discourage anyone like Harris said, however I've been dueling close to ten years and when I'm in the room under an alt there's a sense of feeling unwelcome when I RP or duel like I'm truly new. And I've spoken to a few others who picked up the same sense. That's a people issue. Something harder to address as no one knows who's feeling that way unless they speak up. Rix brought this aspect up as well.

That's odd, because I have had the complete opposite experience. Both of my characters, when they were new and no one knew who I was, they were welcomed in. So, from my personal experience, this was a complete non-issue for me. This is only my third week back and I have not had anything that I would say would of lead me to believe that this is happening right now. Mind you, I'm not saying that it's not, but I've had no personal instances of xenophobia.

I have noticed cliquish behaviour, and some annoying apathy, but, that's not the focus of our conversation.

That last you speak of has been around as long as I can even remember, but it's partly human nature to gravitate towards those one is comfortable with. There are indeed nights some just want to play with only their personal group of partners and that's fine.

I should have proofed that post better because its not every night I get that vibe from the room, just every now and again. Especially if I'm trying out a new name, and I have looked at the situation to see why I get that sense from the room.

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:

Sylus Kurgen wrote:It's evenings like that where I fully support completely localizing material for new players under the Getting Started tab. Harris' guide should be under the Getting Started drop down menu or in the FAQ. Part of it might also be time to update facets of the user interface to aid in navigation for new players.

I think these are excellent ideas. I would make the suggestion of having the "Getting Started" tab a different color, for example, yellow or orange, so that it stands out. It can be part of the same color palate, but brighter. This way not only would you have all of the material needed in one place, as it should be, but being a bright beacon of light guiding new players towards it. If you would teach me how, I would offer my help in doing this.

The issue with getting changes made to the Getting Started tab is those are Administrative changes that would require Amal or Xenograg sitting down with the rest of the staff to discuss "How would this really help new players"?

While we agree it is a good idea, it's a good notion to look at the topic from the perspective of those in charge. I, personally, don't know if that's been discussed at the upper level. I do know that each sport coordinator can alter their little section of the forum to make things easier as they feel are necessary.

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:

Sylus Kurgen wrote:As to the discussion of modifiers that started this thread, there are multiple ways to look at it and they're all personal. Those who have them, have earned the right to use them how they deem best. I won't disagree with that. Some don't want their opponent to hold back at all because they're not holding back themselves. Others are learning the system and desire their opponent to show some temperance.

The veterans are not going to know that desire unless the new duelist extends the olive branch. However there isn't anything that says the veteran duelist cannot offer the same courtesy in return. It's one thing to use modifiers, however it can be another to use them in turning a duel into a scene from Friday the 13th and make the duel a complete slaughter.

The biggest difference between you and I concerning this matter, and correct me if I am wrong or plug in your own terminology, is I believe that you are speaking from the perspective of a member of a community and I am speaking as a participant of a game.

I am speaking from the perspective of a member of the community because when the rooms don't have a DUEL name in them, and all any of us have open are the boards or our own devices to get our dueling fix what are we? (We being general). Instead of a text based game, what if this were SCA or Dagohir? Still a community no matter what brings us together.

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:Is dueling a competition? In my mind, yes it is. What is the point of competing? To win. If I am to duel, I want to be able to beat all of my opponents 5-0 in 5 rounds if I can. If I want to challenge myself, I'll go for 5.5-0 in 6 rounds. Or 5-0 in 10 rounds using only defensive moves. I want to beat them into the ground, drink their blood and plant their head on a stake as a warning to my enemies.

My best single night of dueling was winning 5-0 in 5, winning 5-0 in 6, 5-3 in 13, and 4-0 in 4, where my opponent intentionally forfeited in order to avoid losing by being perfected (I also wrote about this in my bragging post).

As the guy who's been known to throw grenades into the respawn pit in Gears of War 3 and other games, I understand your perspective. However for me, as I've gotten older I've mellowed and it's become less about how quickly I can defeat my opponent and more about simply enjoying trying out new tactics. My personal favorite is intentionally getting my opponents to burn through their modifiers, to coax them out and be wasted. The long duel doesn't bother me at all, and when I started dueling there were maybe a handful of commoner, glass, and apprentice. It was all Warlord, Emerald, and Mage. I came up through the ranks dueling UP. I learned the ropes from watching and listening to Xenograg and Topaz as well as Brigath Cedran, Farek, and Vanion.

In my 8 years of dueling I've gone from a Duelist (one who duels for rank and win ratio) to a Dueler (one who duels for casual enjoyment). My first year was filled with off and on negative WoL. I saw -30s, -40s. I've taken my lumps like anyone else, and I remember what it was like to fall victim to what I now call the "Bottom Feeders". Those who would be looking to pad their record and would only duel those of lower ranks. Thankfully we don't see that very much anymore. I also remember what a political viper pit this place used to be as well, again another positive change.

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:I want to do anything I can to help keep new players, but if we're playing for keeps, I have my own self-interest at hand and I'm going to duel like the maniac I am. I may suck now, but I'm confident that I wont for long and when my skill gets up, I plan to wreck havoc on the standings...

...More importantly, I am proud of this stance, the manner in which I compete and none shall hear me apologizing for it. I want to fight people like me in the rings every single night. People who are here to duel and duel often, with great passion and vigor for their game of choice and to take pride in their accomplishments. I want them to challenge with conviction and defend their titles with zeal. I want to see the love for this great game and not feel that they need to tiptoe to their titles. I want to read of people bragging about their best dueling nights, to have them recap an excellent comeback, and to get angry when they do something stupid and lose. I want to feel the competitive spirit of my opponents in myself.

I am full of piss and vinegar and I mean to share it with all that will have me. I have 41 duels in fewer than three weeks and I dare any to claim they have more. I also dare anyone to keep up with me.

That stance and viewpoint is great though you're welcome to keep your piss to yourself, the shoes are new so I hope you understand.

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:Developing actual tools for new people to practice with, or having a room or DUEL available certain nights of the week so that people can practice without the results being added to the official standings, these are things this thread should be discussing, not rummaging through the ancient idea of imposing social pressure on people to restrict their modifications for their characters, which I would argue would never work and could potentially backfire.

I remember a novelty program like this existing in the Team Dueling League, back in '98 or '99, that I used to mess around with. Does that little DoS robot still exist? The one that had the fencing silhouettes for each move? Open the closet and dust that sucker off and get it on the "Getting Started" tab.

Indeed the program still exists. We also have the DUEL Golem program created by Random, a member of the community, that runs through AIM. I currently have the program file but it runs on javascript from my understanding so figuring a way to house it and keep it running 24/7 is something ongoing.

Velhelmi Torvald wrote:Right now there are zero people around. I could be spending my time on a practice dummy (dueling bot) so that when I get back here to start dueling again, I'll be better prepared. Just like the person who scouts their opponents before a challenge, those who work hardest in competitions usually have the best results.

Why should I give away my hard work to someone who has not earned it.

DoS New Duelist Retention Rate

I offer that discussion started by Kalamere about 2 years ago. The data is from 2010 but I do believe it wouldn't be too hard for him to update it. At the time DoS had a 16% retention rate for New duelists.

Sylus Kurgen wrote: DoS New Duelist Retention Rate

I offer that discussion started by Kalamere about 2 years ago. The data is from 2010 but I do believe it wouldn't be too hard for him to update it. At the time DoS had a 16% retention rate for New duelists.

And I offer that he even said those numbers prove nothing. If you read the whole thing, you'll see where there was a 77% and 58% retention rate, which is much better than the 16% you're quoting. Not to mention all the potential errors in accumulating the data such as typos in SNs and throwaway duelists.

Kalamere wrote:As mentioned above, for the 2nd pass I tried to account for data integrity by scaling down the dataset to people who were already around for 3 months to begin with. Of the 138 people in that category, I also had to remove the ones who were too new to the standings to have been around for 6 months to a year.

Of 131 qualifying duelists to be around for 3 months, 101 of them (77.1%) were still around in 6 months. I think this is actually really good.
Of 109 qualifying duelists to be around for 3 months, 63 of them (57.8%) were still around after a year. This, perhaps, less good.

Does it mean anything really? No. So why try these scare tactics?

G wrote:

Sylus Kurgen wrote: DoS New Duelist Retention Rate

I offer that discussion started by Kalamere about 2 years ago. The data is from 2010 but I do believe it wouldn't be too hard for him to update it. At the time DoS had a 16% retention rate for New duelists.

And I offer that he even said those numbers prove nothing. If you read the whole thing, you'll see where there was a 77% and 58% retention rate, which is much better than the 16% you're quoting. Not to mention all the potential errors in accumulating the data such as typos in SNs and throwaway duelists.

Kalamere wrote:As mentioned above, for the 2nd pass I tried to account for data integrity by scaling down the dataset to people who were already around for 3 months to begin with. Of the 138 people in that category, I also had to remove the ones who were too new to the standings to have been around for 6 months to a year.

Of 131 qualifying duelists to be around for 3 months, 101 of them (77.1%) were still around in 6 months. I think this is actually really good.
Of 109 qualifying duelists to be around for 3 months, 63 of them (57.8%) were still around after a year. This, perhaps, less good.

Does it mean anything really? No. So why try these scare tactics?

What scare tactic? Those numbers are not completely invalid, specially say using the Madness numbers projected? Allowing for screen name errors and throw-away screen names does skew the data making it hard to gauge an accurate depiction however if the numbers are rehashed and updated, we might, granted might, see different numbers between then and now.

I've read through this and have seen the point of needing to communicate. Whenever I do get a chance to duel now I try to remember to ask. For the most part I've never come across anyone unwilling to lower their rank until tonight.

This person was looking for a duel. I IM'ed them asking if they would mind telling me their rank. They responded and was obviously higher than me since I'm stuck at Glass. I asked them if they would mind dueling as glass and got this in return.

Note: Name withheld.

it's a nae. i'm not going to
hold back for you and jeopardize my rank
i worked for to give you an even playing
field you don't deserve.

That's a bit extreme if you ask me. Don't deserve? Could have left it at 'nae'.

Krusolis wrote:I've read through this and have seen the point of needing to communicate. Whenever I do get a chance to duel now I try to remember to ask. For the most part I've never come across anyone unwilling to lower their rank until tonight.

This person was looking for a duel. I IM'ed them asking if they would mind telling me their rank. They responded and was obviously higher than me since I'm stuck at Glass. I asked them if they would mind dueling as glass and got this in return.

Note: Name withheld.

it's a nae. i'm not going to
hold back for you and jeopardize my rank
i worked for to give you an even playing
field you don't deserve.

That's a bit extreme if you ask me. Don't deserve? Could have left it at 'nae'.

I agree, that is a rude response. A more polite rejection would have been better. Like "I spent enough time at Glass myself to go back to it. So I'll have to say no." or something like that.

For context purposes I really wished I saved the whole conversation. Unfortunately I have a habit of closing the IM windows after sending a response. The little icon next to a persons name is hard enough to recognize when you get a response because the reply sound is the same as post notifications in the chat.

I won't quote this but this is how the IM's went to my recollection.

Me: What's your rank, if you don't mind me asking?
Them: ruby!
Me: I'm willing to duel if you want to duel as glass?

--Here's where I wished I kept the window open.--

Them: [responded with an indirect answer to the question]
Me: Is that a yea or a nae?

--The quote I used previously is the copy/paste of their reply.--

Me: Alright. No skin off my back.
Them: You have yourself a good night.

*conversation ceased after that*

Again, this is just for context purposes.

Velhelmi wrote:Second time, same ranks, destroyed it 5-2 in 7. It failed on a Fancy Dis and a Slash and fell to the mighty power of a triple cut.

Fancy Dis. I never thought Kalamere a showoff. But I jest...

=P
The odds of a Dis are only 2%. The fancy logic is a little less stellar. If fancies > 0, use fancy. It does amuse me that you encountered both a slash and a dis in the same duel though.

A few years back I completed about 90% of a DoF version of that thing, but it lacks move logic. Don't let the emerald rank fool you, I still have to have a copy of the matrix infront of me just to remember what the moves are, so I'll need some help with that bit.

Sylus wrote:

Velhelm wrote:I think these are excellent ideas. I would make the suggestion of having the "Getting Started" tab a different color, for example, yellow or orange, so that it stands out. It can be part of the same color palate, but brighter. This way not only would you have all of the material needed in one place, as it should be, but being a bright beacon of light guiding new players towards it. If you would teach me how, I would offer my help in doing this.

The issue with getting changes made to the Getting Started tab is those are Administrative changes that would require Amal or Xenograg sitting down with the rest of the staff to discuss "How would this really help new players"?

I find it sad that this is a derailing issue. I wish all levels of administration were actively involved. Changes and improvements shouldn't run up against a wall due to this reasoning.

G wrote:

Sylus Kurgen wrote: DoS New Duelist Retention Rate

I offer that discussion started by Kalamere about 2 years ago. The data is from 2010 but I do believe it wouldn't be too hard for him to update it. At the time DoS had a 16% retention rate for New duelists.

And I offer that he even said those numbers prove nothing. If you read the whole thing, you'll see where there was a 77% and 58% retention rate, which is much better than the 16% you're quoting. Not to mention all the potential errors in accumulating the data such as typos in SNs and throwaway duelists.

At the request of Sylus I started to mess with this some more, but just found a problem corrupting the numbers which I'll have to fix (problem is mostly in that y'all changed your date format and I need to write a new routine to deal with that).

The return numbers don't necessarily mean much. I think that the number of new duelists we see should be taken to heart though and I can give you those without putting in the fixes I mentioned.

2010 was an awesome year. 168 new duelists found DoS that year. It was the best of the 2006 - 2012 time period I looked at. By comparison, 2011 was much less good and 2012 down right sucks, unless things really pick up in December.

2010 New duelists: 168 (previous best was 167 in 2007)
2011 New duelists: 86
2012 New duelists: 71 (all time low is 79 in 2008)

Consider how many of you have made Alt's (I think Seirichi might account for half of this year's new names) and how far this has dropped from 2010's resurgence, you'll begin to understand how bad this is... The discussion cannot just be around how we keep new people (though, I agree that is a topic which should be discussed as well) it must also extend to how we bring new folks here in the first place.

Kalamere wrote:Consider how many of you have made Alt's (I think Seirichi might account for half of this year's new names)

I'll have 10 more in 3 months. Just wait.

Ok, dealt with the date issue and have all standings up to 11/9 included in the stats. I've been working through de-duplicating old standings with Jake to clean up spelling errors, people listed under multiple names and that kind of thing. I hesitate to bring it all completely up to date until we get further through that process, because the manual method is a pain in the rear.

The tallies from the 2010 study:
http://www.acceptablelosses.org/other/m ... report.php

Tallies from the latest run:
http://www.acceptablelosses.org/other/m ... report.php

The summary is that, while new duelist counts are on a downward trend (alarmingly so), the retention rate has somewhat improved.

Duelists to still be dueling a year after their original appearance is up to 21.78% (from 16.54%).

Duelists to duel for 3 months and still be around at 6 is up to 79.92% (from 77.10%)

Duelists to duel for 3 months and still be around a year later is up to 60.56% (from 57.8%)

Kalamere wrote:Ok, dealt with the date issue and have all standings up to 11/9 included in the stats. I've been working through de-duplicating old standings with Jake to clean up spelling errors, people listed under multiple names and that kind of thing. I hesitate to bring it all completely up to date until we get further through that process, because the manual method is a pain in the rear.

The tallies from the 2010 study:
http://www.acceptablelosses.org/other/m ... report.php

Tallies from the latest run:
http://www.acceptablelosses.org/other/m ... report.php

The summary is that, while new duelist counts are on a downward trend (alarmingly so), the retention rate has somewhat improved.

Duelists to still be dueling a year after their original appearance is up to 21.78% (from 16.54%).

Duelists to duel for 3 months and still be around at 6 is up to 79.92% (from 77.10%)

Duelists to duel for 3 months and still be around a year later is up to 60.56% (from 57.8%)

Whoa, awesome work Kalamere! I know a good chunk of that was a pain in the rump the first time, but you and Jake rock at the numbers game.

Stories.

I know this is a dueling site, but it's text-based RP.
I've noticed RoH participation over on DM is WAY up.. due in part to the gov's addition of the Barons to Council. So that was cool.

I think in order to get new players-there needs to be more stories or something to play off of. The Crew did this earlier in the year.

Like DoM- Jessie had the Isle going bananas with fire.

And now in DoF there's an opal up for grabs.. It's a dark shadowy scary thing. Total fodder for a story/ why does this person want it?/what will they do with it?

Same with the vacated DoS barony- does this person want to make a run for governor? What is the motivation? Why? etc.

There are a lot of possibilities.

*Baron goes missing*

*ShadoWeaver: into the darkness we go*

*Magic Keepers at an impasse on how to handle the Isle's temperamental fire.*

And it could be nothing more than a playable.... the lower ranked duelists could be a part of these things. Seeing the possibilities of the stories that can be written and pulled from the History of RoH.

Will History repeat itself?
What new stories will be written?
Will Jessie's love for Xanth be enough?

I don't know if this makes sense.

But, as a non-dueler -to dueler- to part time dueler.. I have enjoyed the ability to pull stories from the dueling stuff... I think that has a lot to do with it.

Stories!