WoL vs. Math

[Spell]

I'd post this on Apple since you brought up that name but tbh I'm lazy and I don't think it's register well since I've been posting here.

First

and the suggestion offered was coming from someone who can be a little **** sometimes(but he’s MY little ****, damnit), but like a number of other people sharing on this thread, has given a LOT of his time and energy to the community across all the sports.

Say that to my face IRL and see what happens fam Ill deck u in the face

Second

-Coopy
“These colors don’t run.”

;_;7 god bless america

[DemiBob]

Some perspective (I hope):

I spent nearly a year Role-Playing on ROH and/or in dueling chats on RDI before ever logging a single duel. I came for the people and found the RP I was getting there (and usually still do) more palatable than what I was experiencing on the RDI side of things. Eventually I got talked into giving it a try. That first time? Madness. Kheldar wrecked me like 5 - 1.5 or something like that. Losing sucked, but the experience was fun. I started dueling more regularly and I want to say my first win ever was against Harris, which was (for obvious reasons) exciting as Hell.

Thanks to the players of Matt and Apple, I gained a passable understanding of the matrix (in Fists, mostly), the occasional pointer, and a lot of encouragement, but in like four or five months I never cracked Jade. Not the greatest thing and a little frustrating but the RP and the fun were still there, but to be fair, I never applied myself to getting a better grasp on improving. Involving myself as a captain in a dueling league event proved to be disastrous, with issues involving new players and old players alike discouraging me to the point of hanging it up and avoiding RoH for a while. It was something like four or five months after that a new friend convinced me I should give it a try again.

I made a new character. I didn’t tell anyone who I was and just tried to go at it fresh eyes. Some people ignored me. Some people tried to exploit my “newness”. But a handful of people took me under their wing and didn’t just encourage me, they actually took the time to teach me. Common combinations and tendencies, how to keep track of my own duels and learn my own patterns so I could break them. Having that help was important but just as important was the amount of time and effort I put into it.I made my climb to Emerald in DoF at a time when my only options most nights were to fight Emeralds, Emerald Alts, or a trio of other newish players. Being wary and picking my fights was necessary sometimes. Some weeks I was lucky to break even and there was a span of five weeks that I couldn’t get ahead to save my life. I managed to get to Emerald in less than a full cycle but like I mentioned previously, it involved some very good mentorship (which means more than just parking your character in a room and giving them an extra fancy) and a LOT of active dueling.

I’d really like to say that you get out of it what you put into it but that isn’t entirely true. Like poker, skill and luck sort of go hand in hand but the only way to excel and advance is to keep at it. Patience helps too. The eventual success can be its own reward.

Someone may argue this point, but I’ll say it anyway. Fancies aren’t everything. Mods are an advantage, sure, but an emerald/warlord/mage alt still has more experience with the matrix than you (assuming you’re new) and they still have an edge. Evening the playing field on mods only evens the overall playing field so much. Experience is still a thing.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while this is just a game, it IS a game that keeps track of wins and losses, which automatically makes it a competitive game. People play to have fun but they also play to win. With the new(er) player to old(er) player ratio, how much easier do you think a gentler set of rules will be? If anything it *could* make the hyper competitive players even more so and frustrate the newer or more casual players even more. Admittedly, I’m more on the side of the mechanics as they stand than the number crunching but only just so. Maybe I’m interpreting things a little differently but some of the various things written in this thread and others seem to me to point to the issue being one of needing to foster more success in the community than just “making it easier”. I think anything instant gratification where this type of game is concerned is a hard sell, that is unless the site admins want to start selling WoLs for site donations. Pay to win, fam.

Spell’s player mentioned the far less official and a more player driven “Titles”. It’s certainly lacks the more official and classic prestige but when things like story and RP are thrown around, why discount it completely? Good or bad, it was still a suggestion (based off of previous attempts and successes) and wasn’t tossed in anyone’s lap with any finality to it. Being elitist would have been saying “Suck it up and deal” or “Get good, son” and being unwelcoming would have been “If you don’t like it, don’t get your wiener stuck in the door on the way out”. People are worked up about the topic to varying degrees, so sometimes it’s good to just step back and get some perspective, and the suggestion offered was coming from someone who can be a little **** sometimes(but he’s MY little ****, damnit), but like a number of other people sharing on this thread, has given a LOT of his time and energy to the community across all the sports.

Ultimately, I don’t know that I could offer anything better on the feasibility of the Math better than people like Jake and Kal, both who are much better with numbers and who have been pillars of these sorts of discussions 12ever. In the meantime? Maybe some of these suggestions will help the new(er) players:


-Try to find a mentor who is more than just an extra mod, someone who is a very experienced
Duelist across any/all sports who is willing to take the time to work with you. It did wonders for me (Thank you Mel, Claire, Apple, and Queen for everything you guys did for me when I was really learning, even to present day!).

-Strategize. Pick your fights carefully. It may not be the fastest path but being choosy about when and who to fight can make a difference.

-Keep track of all of your fights. Track your own personal data and look for bad habits the others could pick up on. You’d be surprised how much it helps.

-If your opponent has rank on you, PM them and politely ask if they’d be willing to fight at your rank. You’d be surprised how many people are willing. When I went from Glass to Emerald, I can only think of one person who ever told me no and that was because they were ‘on the bubble’. It doesn’t hurt to ask and there’s no shame in asking. The worst they can say is no and keep in mind that they earned their rank just as you’re earning yours, so they may not want to. Still doesn’t hurt.

-Convince Harris that you are really a cute asian girl so that he will teach you the secrets of dueling greatness.

-Fight Matt. He’s old.

-Never give up. Never surrender. Keep at it and don’t throw in the towel. Perseverance is king!




-Coopy
“These colors don’t run.”

Amen.

[Sabine]

Thanks for sharing G. A lot of us were not around and didn't know about these things.

It's nice to know that the duels, DoS specifically has been open to these types of things in the past.

Sounds like those were a lot of fun but a lot of headache!

Also, Coopy, boss post. <3

[G]

Thanks for sharing G. A lot of us were not around and didn't know about these things.

It's nice to know that the duels, DoS specifically has been open to these types of things in the past.

Sounds like those were a lot of fun but a lot of headache!

Also, Coopy, boss post. <3

Sorry, I deleted my post to put it in the DoS OOC folder. This was in the wrong spot.

[Cooper Gallows]

There have also been OL's who have had tournies for who gets the Grant too. King did it as OL. I won it on Charlie as either a commoner or swordsman (I forget which) and went on to win New Haven for a very short spell.

[G]

There have also been OL's who have had tournies for who gets the Grant too. King did it as OL. I won it on Charlie as either a commoner or swordsman (I forget which) and went on to win New Haven for a very short spell.

In that case, it was never a requirement to do so. The OL grant has always been at the discretion of the Overlord, predating my tenure as DoS Coord.

[Corlanthis]

On a personal level I just tend to be across-the-board against anything that lets people "skip" ranks outside of very specific one-off circumstances.

In the specific case of letting the Talon enter the WLT, this bugs for the follow reason.

You have a duelist win a tournament to gain a title/trinket (The Talon), that can then get fast-tracked through to Baron or even Overlord with no further effort other than winning another tournament and subsequent Overlord Challenge.

Granted, that's a pretty long shot, but it's not impossible. And if the Talon is able to flip their Talon into a Barony or the Overlordship, that effectively removes the Talon from play for the rest of the cycle.

The Talon shouldn't get a free pass to skip ranks, they already get fancies that can be used to earn higher-tier ranks.

[Cooper Gallows]

Following on the heels of that, what if the duelist is just another Warlord alt? Because how many Warlord players wouldn't jump on that opportunity? It can possibly perpetuate some of what people are having issues with.

[JewellRavenlock]

Following on the heels of that, what if the duelist is just another Warlord alt? Because how many Warlord players wouldn't jump on that opportunity? It can possibly perpetuate some of what people are having issues with.

I think..I may have said something about this in the Talon thread. Maybe.

[G]

On a personal level I just tend to be across-the-board against anything that lets people "skip" ranks outside of very specific one-off circumstances.

In the specific case of letting the Talon enter the WLT, this bugs for the follow reason.

You have a duelist win a tournament to gain a title/trinket (The Talon), that can then get fast-tracked through to Baron or even Overlord with no further effort other than winning another tournament and subsequent Overlord Challenge.

Granted, that's a pretty long shot, but it's not impossible. And if the Talon is able to flip their Talon into a Barony or the Overlordship, that effectively removes the Talon from play for the rest of the cycle.

The Talon shouldn't get a free pass to skip ranks, they already get fancies that can be used to earn higher-tier ranks.

Long shot? It happened.

[Corlanthis]

It's almost like I said it wasn't impossible.

[G]

It's almost like I said it wasn't impossible.

For the record, I'm agreeing with you. It was pretty much because of all the reasons you cited that the decision to keep the Talon in the WLT was discontinued. Too OP.

[Spell]

It's almost like I said it wasn't impossible.

For the record, I'm agreeing with you. It was pretty much because of all the reasons you cited that the decision to keep the Talon in the WLT was discontinued. Too OP.

git it outta here then. No WLT right to Talon pls, keep them dank tournies separate.

[Jake]

To answer Jake, with the exception of the rare shutout it's always possible to get back into the positive in one duel using the Math system, whereas you must win two duels in a row to get into the positive using WoL. It's a low chance a player can pull off a 5-0 after a 1-5, but the hope is there. It comes down to whether a new player thinks that's possible. Two losses in a row with either system likely results in a wait. Most people only have time for 1-3 hour long duels a week anyways.

...

I think I remain unsold.

In fact, I think this might even bring out a more predatory form of scouting. If wide disparity in score is of more value...I'm not just going to seek wins. I'm going to seek opponents that I can scout and dominate.

Right now...I can be leisurely in my duels. If I, as a Warlord, am dueling someone I think is a newcomer, I can throw a few rounds (send weaker moves), skip using my Fancies, etc., to prolong the duel and give them more experience and hopefully a better score. All without hurting my own rank.

However, if I have to be conscious of how many points the differential is...it becomes much more like TDL. More competitive. I can't afford not to use my Fancies for example. I need those big margins if I'm going to improve my ranking. And I'm going to favor those duels where I believe I can dominate.

I don't know if making DoS *that* competitive is a desirable thing.

People bring out their A game for challenges, and tournies, and that's to be expected. And I would agree is desirable. But, I don't know that forcing everyone to bring out their A game for every duel is desirable, or even conducive to RP. I know for myself at least, I have much more fun RPing in casual duels--when it doesn't matter--than when I am fighting in TDL or IFL or a challenge. When the duels "matter" the RP sometimes slips a little into the background. I can't spend the creative energy to be funny, when I am "for serious" trying to out-think an opponent.

---

I get the idea that maybe WoL is not the best ranking system. But I'm not sure that this Math method moves us in a more desirable direction. I think it has the possibility to be even more intimidating to beginners (because like...math) and to create an even more competitive environment for everyday duels that I don't think really benefits us. It's fine/better for optional things (like IFL, like Hydra, like TDL) where the casual duelist (like a Taneth or a Tara) can opt out and just stick to doing it for fun.

[Luna Eva]

I think it should be obvious, based on the thread I started a few weeks ago, that I feel a lot of sympathy for the experience Aric is having, since I've been there myself not long ago. It seems like, based on the posts before mine, a lot of people have faced early challenges for whatever reason.

I've never been interested in really changing the way the game worked (I'm also not a math person so the proposed new scoring system is sort of over my head). I always just wanted to get better. But I have been bugged by facing alts in the low-ranks tournaments. Honestly, if I had understood as clearly as I do now that the low-ranks tournament was not supposed to be geared towards newer duelers, I think some of my early frustration in dueling would have been cut in half. My expectations would have just been different.

I'm not surprised someone else was looking towards the low-ranks tournament as a place to face people with a similar level of experience and was disappointed when it didn't turn out that way.

With a combination of the early frustrations of dueling and disappointment about the low-ranks tournament, I can imagine that it doesn't feel great to be told to just start your own tournament and make up your own titles. Especially when you've been expressly invited to share your ideas and opinions.

A lot of the things people have talked about here---all the ways that they have made and found dueling to be fun---are fantastic amazing things. But when you're new, you don't really have confidence in doing those things. You're still just trying to figure out how things work, and you're looking towards the officials, the staff, and the veterans for guidance on getting better at dueling and what you can participate in. You're not organizing your own league or team or title or one-night-only tournament.

In that sense, there isn't much replacement for the official tournaments. In addition, the official tournaments come with a game mechanic advantage and a place on the standings (though I'm excited about the prospect of Kal adding player-titles to the standings, yay!).

I also think there is space in our community for a tournament that is designed for new duelers. I think it would be a great way to demonstrate our interest in growing the community. And I think official sanctioning for something like that would be one way to show institutional support for new duelers. Even if it's just a once-a-year thing. I'm excited about the rumors that there are player-created events in the works (and I'd love to help in any way I can!) and in my fantasies, one of those works so well, we can consider making it more official.

That said, obviously I LOVE player-created events and I'm all about finding your own fun in dueling.

I created an entire character so I could figure out how to have fun while losing. And it worked! And eventually I stopped losing so much. I think most of us who stuck around through the early challenges of dueling and ended up enjoying dueling on a regular basis found a way to make it fun one way or another whether it was deciding rank didn't matter, or making your own titles or whatever! But those early challenges were definitely still there, at least for me, and I haven't forgotten how hard those times were for me. How many times I wanted to give up and walk away. And how many times I felt like my frustrations fell on deaf ears.

I'm gonna keep on doing my part to try to make dueling a fun place to roleplay (I promise Grace, I have a ton of ideas! I have a list!). But I'm also going to keep championing new duelers, cause it's freaking hard to be new, because you lose A LOT, because a lot of the fun things about dueling feel inaccessible to you, and because everyone keeps telling you to work hard when you feel like you already are.