Intercessions?

[Andrea Anderson]

What if, instead, each use of the OL's intercession ability reduced the SoA it took to challenge them. Maybe by 3. Reset to 15 at the beginning of each cycle and maybe make a minimum of 3 (though, dropping to 3 wouldn't mean the OL could no longer intercede, just that a challenger would always need at least 3 SoA).

eg:
* Beginning of the cycle, a warlord needs 15 SoA to challenge Morgan.
* Morgan intercedes on 1 challenge. The SoA to challenge her is now 12.
* Intercedes on a 2nd challenge. SoA to challenge her is now 9.
* etc.

ETA: I'd add in that if the SoA dropped to 3, the loyal wall rules no longer apply.

Just my opinion: The politics of DoS have always been more interesting to me than the game of DoS. If an Overlord has a policy to intercede on every challenge, there will likely be some characters who disagree with the policy and they can A) step in if they are a renegade baron or B) get SoA and challenge the OL, or C) get SoA and challenge a loyal baron while making a deal with a renegade baron to intercede if needed. The rules of alignment encourage more character interaction and can potentially create interesting reasons for challenges.

Kal's suggestion quoted above sounds interesting if a rule change is desired.

Kal's suggestion does sound interesting. The only drawback to this is if there's a wall of loyals. Though something like "If an Overlord goes below their allotted 15 point limit they are free to challenge by anyone." Though in all honesty that seems meeeh to the Overlord position.

Edit: My bad, didn't see the edit to Kal's original post.

I suppose another option could be to add an intercession free challenge option if the challenger submits 20 SoA as opposed to 10.

10 SoA + Renegade Backing. Renegade loses their right to challenge the OL and the 10 SoA gathered Warlord is able to have an intercession free challenge against a baron of their choosing.

Or make it 10 *WINS* against Warlords. No losses. If you gain those you'll be allowed to have an intercession free challenge. 20 SoA is pretty easy to gain if you go around dueling lower ranks. Compare that to needing to duel 10 Warlords and having to win to gain the benefit. The Warlord-Only one would be harder. Downside to this is the lack of Warlords. It couldn't be like peer wins where you'd need to fight 10 different Warlords and win.

That said, I wonder if some of the different views on intercessions may be due to the current view of the duels being more similar to sporting events between star athletes. In sports, you just need to keep winning in order to get a title shot. Back in the 90s, it seemed like most viewed the duels as being in a medieval setting with lords and ladies and dueling houses. If I were new to the duels and viewed them similar to modern sports, I'd probably be confused about things like "test of worthiness" and "ladies of honor."

That's true. It should be considered that the Duels really aren't the same as they were 10 / 15 / or even 20 years ago. Times change.

[Harris]

Most problems seem to arise when there is a loyal wall. If there was a workaround to allow another means of countering intercessions with a loyal wall in play ( outside of more intercession free challenges ), then maybe the issue could be fixed. With the Renegades currently in play challenges can be seen as more balanced, though in the end Barons are still favored in the process.

The loyal wall rule has no real impact here. That only prevents a challenge to the Overlord. Since the OL is already infinitely more challengable, even with the Test of Worthiness rules in place, than is the Diamond or the ArchMage, I have to assume that is a non-issue. If you mean just that with no renegades in play, the challenger has no hope of support... that's sorta by design. Get a baron on your side and flip them.

That to me is the most overlooked element in this discussion. The only, specific time a Warlord has to 100 percent be concerned with an intercession is if there are 7 Loyal Barons. As long as there's at least 1 Renegade Baron, a challenger has the option to avoid an intercession entirely.

The only other worthwhile statistic would probably be to note the frequency and length of time there are 7 Loyal Barons. But even with that data I can't imagine there being any sort of reasonable "fix" to something so subjective as character chosen alignments.

Since the beginning of Candy's reign in Aug. of 2012 there have been 13 OL intercessions.

* No OL has interceded more than 3 times in a given cycle. Only Teagan has more than 2 and her count was likely inflated due to the number of Hydra related challenges going on at the beginning of her reign.

* In 7 of 13, a renegade baron stepped in. Teagan's reign is again and outlier in this because she did it 5 times and not once did a renegade get involved. Remove her from the equation and instead you see a renegade stepping in 7 times out of 8.

Not to nitpick, because I do love stats, but that's 13 OL intercessions out of how many challenges to Loyal Barons, not including IC free challenges? Just so there's a clear context.

[Teagan]

I just have a few more unorganized thoughts to add.

The number of intercessions can be skewed by the number of
loyal/renegade barons. The more loyal barons there are, the more
likely a challenge issued will target a loyal, thus the more
opportunity to intercede. The opposite for more renegade barons.

Since people have mentioned not wanting to bother challenging because
of the possibility of intercession, what do you expect to happen if
it's limited to 3 or any other number? Will that make you feel better
about being interceded against or simply not challenge until everyone
else has soaked up the intercessions? What if everyone held back from
challenging for the same reason?

If the loyal wall did not prevent challenges from the warlord to the
overlord, would intercessions for loyal barons be as big of an issue?
I was not a fan of that rule in the first place.

[JewellRavenlock]

I don't think stats for intercession free challenges blah blah etc. are the only important numbers to look at here.

What about room numbers? Has anyone seen DoS busier (outside of Madness) than on nights when an interceded challenge is happening? I haven't.

[Lem DeAngelo]

What about room numbers? Has anyone seen DoS busier (outside of Madness) than on nights when an interceded challenge is happening? I haven't.

The biggest challenge I can recall witnessing in the last few years was Rakeesh's challenge to Candy for OL. I want to say there were 40-50 characters in the room. Candy used the test and Kal stepped in. Great challenge event.

[Shadowlord]

We're also only looking at one side of the coin. The balance to the OL's right to intercede is the renegade's right to step in on it. I do not believe 1 should be modified without the other.

This point stands out to me as of particular validity. How do you justify reducing the OL's influence/power and not doing the same to the Renegades? Which then begs the question, how do you effectively balance these opposing factors in a new system?

I like Intercession rules, personally. In the end, for me, they add a level of complexity I enjoy without forcing a best of three (being forced into which I don't like, in the other sports). When one is able to, through personal effort or effective politicking, get past the intercession and win, it generally adds to the sense of accomplishment thereby gained.

I do understand how it can be discouraging to some newer players, but simply because something is more difficult does not make it wrong or broken, necessarily.

[Awkward]

As a new dueler since mid-April, I’ll weigh in.

Would it prevent me from challenging knowing that I’d have to fight an intercession?

My answer may seem a little wishy washy, but allow me to explain myself first.

Right now, I’m still too early on in my DoS “career” (or too new to dueling in general) to say that I have any sort of confidence in the sport to suggest that I wouldn’t be apprehensive about challenging with the knowledge that an intercession would come into play. I’m more likely right now to challenge for an opal or a tower in the other two sports because I only have to prepare to take down one person, not two. (Not that I'm high enough in rank to go for either one of these yet.) The intercession occurs only after the fact that I’ve mentally prepared myself to fight the Baron and then all of the sudden, someone is stepping in to prevent that. There's "more red tape" to go through. Because of this, it makes me feel like going for and reaching a Barony is harder than going for an Opal or a Tower. These are just my early on impressions of the sport, and in the end, just opinions.

DoS has a lot of rules and so forth, which is another reason why I’m hesitant in the sport too. –Oh and let’s be honest, it is also not my best sport either.

Through the course of this thread it seems to be that the Overlord does not intercede on every challenge that comes around, and it has just been done recently twice (almost in a row). I have to ask though, was there no intercession between Aurast and Nayun simply because it happened “at dawn”? So my point is that if there are not constant intercessions, then it’s still just a possibility to happen –which is still the case if you restrict the number of intercessions anyways.

In time when I (hopefully) get better and am in an actual position to issue a challenge: No. The notion of the possible intercession (limited number or not) is not going to prevent me from challenging for a Barony if / when I decide to do so. Do I like the idea of my challenge potentially being thwarted and not even getting to duel against the Baron I was intending to? No. But if I want to try for a Barony, I’m going to try for a Barony.

Be prepared for Grace “Stab them in the eye” Friggs!

I’d like to give a thanks to starting this discussion because it has helped me understand the purpose behind the intercessions and the differences between Swords, Fists and Magic, and in turn allowed me to be able to make the choice as to whether or not I would ever challenge when I was able to.

[Harris]

We're also only looking at one side of the coin. The balance to the OL's right to intercede is the renegade's right to step in on it. I do not believe 1 should be modified without the other.

This point stands out to me as of particular validity. How do you justify reducing the OL's influence/power and not doing the same to the Renegades? Which then begs the question, how do you effectively balance these opposing factors in a new system?

I like Intercession rules, personally. In the end, for me, they add a level of complexity I enjoy without forcing a best of three (being forced into which I don't like, in the other sports). When one is able to, through personal effort or effective politicking, get past the intercession and win, it generally adds to the sense of accomplishment thereby gained.

I do understand how it can be discouraging to some newer players, but simply because something is more difficult does not make it wrong or broken, necessarily.

Perhaps this was overlooked, but I covered this exact point in my suggestion if there's a determination that anything might need tweaking.

To balance out lessening the amount of intercessions available to the Supreme Duelist, you strengthen the intercession itself, and no longer allow Renegade Barons to champion a challenger when the Overlord intercedes. Essentially, Overlord intercessions would be absolute, but limited per cycle. More powerful, less frequent.

[Jake]

That said, I wonder if some of the different views on intercessions may be due to the current view of the duels being more similar to sporting events between star athletes. In sports, you just need to keep winning in order to get a title shot. Back in the 90s, it seemed like most viewed the duels as being in a medieval setting with lords and ladies and dueling houses. If I were new to the duels and viewed them similar to modern sports, I'd probably be confused about things like "test of worthiness" and "ladies of honor."

That's true. It should be considered that the Duels really aren't the same as they were 10 / 15 / or even 20 years ago. Times change.

Just a comment. Not really.

The Red Dragon Inn certainly may have started off as a medieval themed chatroom, but because there was no restriction on what anyone played, the type of characters that wandered in to duel has never been exclusively, or even predominately medieval.

MadMadMax, the name pretty much suggests where the origin of the character came from.

We had Highlanders, road warriors, lisping assassin beavers, vampires, spacers etc. (We may have more Asian schoolgirls now than back then, and fewer vampires and Highlanders.) There's always been a pretty broad range of character, and some viewed DoS as a medieval sort of environment, and some didn't. And the "DoS as modern sporting event feel" has been around quite a while. (Heck, I would argue the entire Wrecking Crew team was based around a modern sports theme, and they date back more than 10 years. [WRC was formed for TDL season 520, which started in 2002]) The game itself really is kinda the same as it was 15-20 years ago. Even the dialogue and outrage around tests of worthiness is the same. People freak out when the Test gets applied. Or when Intercession happens. That aspect of the design was as "passion-inciting" then as now.

The player-base isn't the same. Or not entirely the same. Some faces are still around. Some aren't. Some are new. But really the game (and the myriad of viewpoints) is the same.

[Claire Gallows]

I don't have a ton of dueling experience honestly. I've been around RoH for a little over a year now, maybe a year and a half. Magic was always my preferred sport and I didn't really start climbing in rank in swords until well after I hit Mage and managed to get my first DoM title. That said, a major contributor to *why* I didn't want to devote the effort to DoS is that while the matrix was easier to understand than DoM, the politics system and extensive rules were not. Had it not been for the intercession free grant that I somehow managed to win during the Halloween DoS event, I probably wouldn't have continued to progress or try to progress in swords.

Granted, I was only a GM at the time so I couldn't have challenged without it but since I was still grinding rank, I was realistically 12-ish wins from being able to even challenge. Which is practically like grinding another rank on top of Warlord. It's daunting when you're a lowbie. To go through the 15 WoL grind (which is seldom 15 duels) and then rack up 10 SoA on top of it without dropping below the 15 mark had me incredibly hesitant to dedicate the time to do so. Doubly with the loyal wall that was in place around that time and the thought of facing not only an experienced baron but a talented OL for a probable intercession, yeah no. No thanks, I'd rather stick to the other two sports where I know what I'm getting into.

That was eight months ago which feels like a lifetime in my short dueling career. Since then I've had the chance to rack up a ton more experience, so I can see it in a different light now. I understand the politics and the system a bit better and the RP aspect is certainly alluring to a point. But the whole point of my long winded conjecture is to just lay out my point of view when I was a newb looking to break into the ranks of long tenured players.

There are quite a few good ideas being lofted here but I don't quite think I'm qualified to say what's best for the community as a whole. Just wanted to throw my two bits into the pot and give my experience.

[Kalamere]

Not to nitpick, because I do love stats, but that's 13 OL intercessions out of how many challenges to Loyal Barons, not including IC free challenges? Just so there's a clear context.

I dug a lot of that up last week, but unfortunately have it in a spreadsheet back home (currently in NC on vacation) and am loath to make another run through two years of challenges to dig it up again. I think the numbers would be interesting and add more light to things, but that said I think there is a point to be taken from just what's there on the 13 intercessions.

The prevailing downside opinion is that a few people wouldn't challenge because 'there's no point' and there would certainly be an intercession. There are obviously ebbs and flows, but going back a full 2 years (8 OL reigns, though the 8th is ongoing) there were those 13 intercessions which averages to 1.6 per cycle [13 intercessions / (2 years * 4 cycles per year0]. Intercessions with no renegade support have happened 6 times in the same time frame for an average of .46 times per cycle.

Since we haven't seen more than 3 intercessions by the same OL in a cycle, I don't see how restricting the OL to 3 intercessions per cycle actually alleviates the complaint. We could take away the range of intercession free challenges that are given out to balance it. Make the right more available to the OL so that restrictions are more meaningful, but that's a sort of awkward way to deal with the complaint, isn't it?

Perhaps this was overlooked, but I covered this exact point in my suggestion if there's a determination that anything might need tweaking.

To balance out lessening the amount of intercessions available to the Supreme Duelist, you strengthen the intercession itself, and no longer allow Renegade Barons to champion a challenger when the Overlord intercedes. Essentially, Overlord intercessions would be absolute, but limited per cycle. More powerful, less frequent.

You did, I should have mentioned as much, but was focusing on other responses.

I think that is probably a good balance, but I'd really hate to see that go into play. The renegade stepping in is such a powerful piece of play and really what gives that alignment teeth. They'd still have the right with the ToW I guess, but still. This, to me, would be a real shame.

The last thing I'd throw out there is that I think the difficulty in challenging a Baron as compared to challenging an Opal or Keeper, is the balance for making the Overlord actually challengable, unlike the Diamond and the Archmage. Of the 3 sports, DoS is the only one where a duelist may achieve the pinnacle title without first winning a top rank tournament.

Making it to baron gives you a direct shot at the Overlord title and you always have a champion available to you, by rule, if the sitting OL puts a Test of Worthiness in your path. This is another reason why the barony itself is a difficult first step.

[Shadowlord]

We're also only looking at one side of the coin. The balance to the OL's right to intercede is the renegade's right to step in on it. I do not believe 1 should be modified without the other.

This point stands out to me as of particular validity. How do you justify reducing the OL's influence/power and not doing the same to the Renegades? Which then begs the question, how do you effectively balance these opposing factors in a new system?

I like Intercession rules, personally. In the end, for me, they add a level of complexity I enjoy without forcing a best of three (being forced into which I don't like, in the other sports). When one is able to, through personal effort or effective politicking, get past the intercession and win, it generally adds to the sense of accomplishment thereby gained.

I do understand how it can be discouraging to some newer players, but simply because something is more difficult does not make it wrong or broken, necessarily.

Perhaps this was overlooked, but I covered this exact point in my suggestion if there's a determination that anything might need tweaking.

To balance out lessening the amount of intercessions available to the Supreme Duelist, you strengthen the intercession itself, and no longer allow Renegade Barons to champion a challenger when the Overlord intercedes. Essentially, Overlord intercessions would be absolute, but limited per cycle. More powerful, less frequent.

Thanks for pointing that out. Still, I like more frequent, less powerful, and less of a shift in power toward either Renegade or Overlord.

I'll reiterate that I understand how a new player can be daunted by these rules. I know I was, something like 16 years ago. My first DoS challenge *ever* actually occurred in 2010, in the latter stage of my play here.

In a sense I see the DoS system as promoting the idea of a fuller familiarity with the sport before challenging. And I don't think that's a bad thing. There are plenty of ranks to be gained, and milestones reached, before one ever really needs to jump into the challenge mix, and plenty of other games I play have such a structure, essentially forcing you to learn the game before, say, being able to kill the evil Arch-Lich of Doom or whatever.

Now, if such a thing is going to drive a player away, I think that's a shame, but it's also a shame to fall into the trap of instant gratification.

I don't know if my views reflect a majority of the community's opinion, and I do care about the will of the community. Just wanted to get my few cents out there.

[Napoleon Bonarat]

Now, if such a thing is going to drive a player away, I think that's a shame, but it's also a shame to fall into the trap of instant gratification.

This.

[JewellRavenlock]

Now, if such a thing is going to drive a player away, I think that's a shame, but it's also a shame to fall into the trap of instant gratification.

This.

I got beat to quoting this!

I think it would be a dreadful shame to make the game "easier" for newer folks and lose the potential for RP that comes with the intercessions. I realize that some people are here for just gaming aspect of DoS (learn the matrix, climb the ranks, be rewarded) but even that shouldn't be made so easy. What shows someone's skill more than challenging a baron and having to fight and beat the OL first before moving on to the baron? That takes skillz.

[Hope]

Since I started there have been 34 challenges in DoS. 7 were grants either by IC free or barons, making the tally at 8/27 challenges with Intercessions. In those 8 there have been 3 cases where a renegade baron championed for the challenger, in all 3 the champions were successful and the challenger won the challenge. 2 of those 3 have been within the past month. The other happened on the only intercession of the cycle. Are these refreshing numbers? It's nice to see that there is a check to the balance of intercessions, yes. It's also sad to think that getting a minimum of 25 duels in Swords is considered instant gratification. Best case scenario you go 15-0 WoL then sustain your rank after 10 SoA. That's the minimum amount of effort it takes to -CHALLENGE- let alone deal with an intercession or not.

Maybe this is why I happen to enjoy the way Fists/Magic work. Should it be necessary for me to gain SoA in those sports, I'd understand the necessity or the showing of good faith for a duelist to present their activity before challenging for a title. In swords, to go through the process and potentially lose a challenge without ever having faced the person I'm challenging even after giving SoA- it's just mind numbing. I suppose now is a better time than not to go for it though since 66% of interventions have occurred in the past month of the past year.