Hydra 2013 Post-Season Discussion OPEN

The Second Best Dueling Event of the Year!
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Kalamere
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Post by Kalamere »

Rakeesh wrote: If these tournaments are to be a competitive highlight of the season, which I believe they should be, I think that they should hold significantly more weight than 5/3/2. If we're going with only two tournaments, I would suggest a payout 20/10/5/5 (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th).
I'm good with those values. I put in 5/3/2 based on your original 2-6 points statement, but then failed to account for the fact I stripped away 2/3rds of the tournaments you had suggested holding.

Aenlyn wrote:Rule Changes in General
In addition to the change in the credit system, there was also a change in the rules regarding intercession. The original rules stated clearly that duelists would not get points for defending a title via intercession, and these were silently changed after the start. If anything is going to change after the start, some sort of notification should be necessary.
I addressed this to Rakeesh a while back, though I guess that may have been on a different forum. Anyway though, this wasn't a rule change. This was me making a mistake when I tried to port the rules to the dashboard site and fill out the language for clarity. I assumed falsely that to get the points a person would have to get in the ring and wrote it up that way specifically. Sylus shouldn't take any blame for that or take gruff for changing rules mid-game. He didn't. This was entirely my fault.
Aenlyn wrote:New Suggestions
In place of challenges, maybe some alternative could be worked out that's central to just Hydra? Maybe give the duelist with the best % in each sport for the week a title, and then give a +1 to the winner of each duel the champion is involved in for their sport.
I'd personally like to see challenges stay in. I think this is a cool idea though. That said, season one's BeatDown Bounty seems to have caused some hard feelings, so maybe not.
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Post by Rakeesh »

It's easy to blacklist a team ( even if it might be considered not in the spirit of the competition ) when it comes to Team vs Team extra points. That's my reason for disliking the idea of an added boost if it's a Team vs Team match, since it will promote more strategy and team dodging, which already happens anyway -- but might be worse than this season.
I don't think that this would encourage more dodging than we saw this season, necessarily. Even if it did, the flat point and cap system that Kalamere and I are talking about reduces the effective activity requirements from this season significantly enough that it shouldn't be a problem. Like I said in my original post, I think that this system does two things in particular:

- It reduces the activity requirement and treats regulation like a "buy-in" system. With these numbers, I suspect we'd see three, maybe more teams hit their 60/90/whatever point cap every week.

- It balances the point values for non-regulation scoring, and makes non-regulation scoring the high end level for competition.

-----

re: Challenges

This flat/cap system will work with or without a challenge system:

- With a challenge system, as Kalamere has designed, you would simply place the Rank Gain bonus points into non-regulation scoring to even the playing field between high and low ranks, which was an issue this season.

- Without a challenge system, as I'd initially designed, you would instead place the Rank Gain bonus within regulation scoring so that you're encouraging new players to be active and try to gain rank (or encouraging old players to branch out into new sports). However, with the point cap, those bonus points aren't going to give an unfair disadvantage to the higher ranked players, who will be able to score just as many points in a given week.


Aenlyn wrote:
New Suggestions
In place of challenges, maybe some alternative could be worked out that's central to just Hydra? Maybe give the duelist with the best % in each sport for the week a title, and then give a +1 to the winner of each duel the champion is involved in for their sport.
This is a neat idea. I think that challenges are going to be one of those things that we can live with, or without, in regards to this system. Either way, I don't have a particular problem with this. There would need to be a minimum of duels to make that % viable (4, maybe?), and the +1 bonus for the weekly champions (or the people that beat them) would still need to fall within regulation scoring so that a player/team couldn't use that to go beyond their weekly cap.
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Post by Sylus Kurgen »

I've read what's being discussed thus far and will try to weigh in as best I can once I'm in a more stable place (borrowing a laptop right now).

I'd like to keep the point differential system, but balance it in a way to work with the level of intensity that Hydra encourages.
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Post by Rakeesh »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:I'd like to keep the point differential system, but balance it in a way to work with the level of intensity that Hydra encourages.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Here are the problems with Point Differential scoring, as we saw this Season:

- A win isn't good enough. You need BIG wins, and that means that whatever cap you put onto duels-per-week is meaningless. To compete, people will have to keep dueling to get better wins, and most everyone will get burned out and unhappy by season's end. The activity demands are too high with this system.

- It encourages matchups that are uneven. You can take a look at lists of who the top-ranked duelists fought the most, and you'll see that (for a lot of them), it was the same small number of low-ranked duelists. This isn't something that I think is healthy for competition, and it's not something that I liked to see (though, in a pinch at the end of the week, I did the same thing several times so that I could get my BIG wins for that week).

I could drone on further, but I won't. I will say, however, that I simply would not participate in another regulation season that used Point Differential scoring. It was, by far, the worst part of Hydra this season. I did it, my team did it, week-in-and-out ... but it was not fun.
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Post by G »

Sylus Kurgen wrote:I've read what's being discussed thus far and will try to weigh in as best I can once I'm in a more stable place (borrowing a laptop right now).
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Post by Goldglo »

My thoughts (much of which have already been stated by others):

1. 4-week duration. Hydra Season 1 was too long though for me, I think it was better than Season 2 as it seemed less intense. Maybe that's because the outcome had been decided about a week and a half in so there was less pressure to duel in Season 1. By the middle of week 3, Hydra Season 2 seemed too long. Weeks 5 and 6 were just a mindless grind both from a dueling and calling perspective.

2. Remove (or severly reduce) challenge/defense points. While on one hand it was good to see challenges, people were challenging just to challenge or to block others from challenging or because they felt they had to challenge or they felt pressured to 'get there first'. It wasn't about the titles in many cases, which I don't think was a good thing. For me, it got seriously old very fast. With the Season 2 points system, I feel that challenge/defense points were imbalancing and worth too much.

3. Remove double points weeks/days/doubleanything. Those were absolute hell for callers and overall, I believe, an overall detriment to the competition from a calling and playing standpoint. Double points weeks also made dueling in the non-doubled sport essentially useless. A 5-0 shutout win in a non-doubled sport was worth a decent loss in the doubled sport. That just doesn't seem right.

4. Determine a calling-schedule beforehand, inclusive of substitute callers. I realize this is mostly out of Sylus' control, but the mass calling chaos cannot happen again. From a personal standpoint, I'm still deep within burnout mode from Hydra between all the calling and the dueling. 6 weeks x 7 days/week = 42 straight days of nonstop hardcore dueling and/or calling for most every participant. And yes, one can argue that people can/should have taken nights off or not dueled so much or not called so much. The fact is, though, if a player wanted to maximize points, they simply had to keep dueling to get larger wins (see below). A vast majority of the time, the same callers were calling night after night after night. It totally wasn't fair to them, regardless of whether or not those callers also had characters participating in Hydra Season 2.

5. Points differentials need hardcore modification at least, elimination at best. As has been said elsewhere, 4 duels wasn't enough. The pre-Season 2 theory sounded great, especially when compared to Season 1's scoring. In reality though, if your opponent scored 2 points, the duel was already at a "meh" stage and if they scored 3, it became a time-waster. Limiting your opponents to 1 point or less became the goal, and most people had to duel a zillion duels so they could net 4 big wins (and you really needed 5 or 6 per week to boost the team's safety-net-credit-system points). Low-rank farming was talked about earlier, but I don't know how much of a difference it actually made. If the low-rank scored 2 or 3 points, they basically won the duel as far as having it count in a meaningful way for their higher-ranked opponent's Hydra score.

6. Swap Meet. Seemed fine to me. If you need to swap out a teammate for whatever reason, do it. I liken it to TDL/IFL where you had a set weekly sub and then a Free Agent pool to dip into if/when needed.

7. Tournaments. Rakeesh initially suggested 6 tournaments. Sorry, but in no way do I think that's feasible or necessary. In a 4-6 week event, 2 tournaments is plenty. However, depending on how they're scored, a single tournament win could really skew points toward the winner/high-finishers. The occurrance of regular RoH tournaments (DQ, AMT, WLT, etc. etc.) needs to be taken into consideration from a burnout standpoint because even if those don't wind up counting toward Hydra, they are still events taking place.

8. Rank-increase bonuses. I like them. But as others have said you should get a one-time bonus per rank, not a bonus for each time you hit Jade, bust down and hit Jade again. As far as upper ranked folks being excluded, I go back and forth on whether it's tough cookies or whether everyone should have an equal chance at bonuses. Maybe to encourage more peer-to-peer dueling at the upper levels, something like the ERS could be used where the Top X Emerald/Warlord/Mage with the best winning percentages get a small bonus. Of course, this could spark a situation where upper ranks refuse to duel lower ranks hoping to nudge their Peer Winning Percentage up and get the bonus. Yay for pros/cons.

9. Backend Assistance from non-RoH staff. A lot of people stepped up to help with Hydra Season 2 (and some of them, like Kalamere, were absolute superstars...the guy made a kickass website for us!) - unfortunately, many of them were also RoH staff (coordinators, callers, etc.) which added to workload and burnout. It would be good, I think, if well before Season 3 started, there was a pool of other player volunteers who commit to assisting Sylus with whatever needs doing. Not to say that RoH staff can or should be excluded...mypoint is that the work should be spread out across more people, preferably including those who already don't have full RoH related plates.

That's it for now.

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Post by Kalamere »

Can't say I'm highly in favor of keeping the duel scores under a differential system.. but, alright, let's say we work from that as a starting ground.

The only way i can think of to try balancing it is to not only count the best duels, but to introduce risk and count at least 1 of the worst.

Say we stay with the idea of 4 duels a week per duelist. In order, say I had 6 duels in a week.

5-1 win = 9 points
5-2 win = 8 points
5-3 win = 7 points
5-3 win = 7 points
4-5 loss = 4 points
2-5 loss = 2 points

Under this year's system that would be 31 points counting the top 4. So, if we say the worst duel of the week counts towards your 4, then the score shifts to 26 points.

It's not a huge difference, but if I already had my duels for the week in, it would make me think carefully about trying to keep getting better wins, when I risk putting in a worse loss instead.

Just throwing ideas out, not really anything I'm set on.

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Post by Jake »

Kalamere wrote:Can't say I'm highly in favor of keeping the duel scores under a differential system.. but, alright, let's say we work from that as a starting ground.

The only way i can think of to try balancing it is to not only count the best duels, but to introduce risk and count at least 1 of the worst.

Say we stay with the idea of 4 duels a week per duelist. In order, say I had 6 duels in a week.

5-1 win = 9 points
5-2 win = 8 points
5-3 win = 7 points
5-3 win = 7 points
4-5 loss = 4 points
2-5 loss = 2 points

Under this year's system that would be 31 points counting the top 4. So, if we say the worst duel of the week counts towards your 4, then the score shifts to 26 points.

It's not a huge difference, but if I already had my duels for the week in, it would make me think carefully about trying to keep getting better wins, when I risk putting in a worse loss instead.

Just throwing ideas out, not really anything I'm set on.

~Kal
I can't say I favor this idea at all.

I don't like the idea of anyone worsening their score.

I think it would be useful to step back and look at Season 2 from a Goal perspective.

At least in my talks with Sylus, Hydra has always had goals, including:

- Promote regular dueling.
- Promote tournies and challenges.
- Promote cross-duel play.

From the perspective of Season 2, and those goals, one could argue that all of the goals were met, and the system worked pretty much as designed.

The beauty of "Best 4" was that it encouraged people to keep dueling. If you haven't got a good 4, you *could* try to get better duels. Conversely, if you already had a good 4, you didn't have to stop dueling (which meant you were available for *other* people to get some points). ETA: Just touching back on the idea above...one of the consequences of forcing people to accept a worse duel, is that people would be even *more* likely to be selective about who they duel.

The goal was to promote more dueling. Best 4 was well-suited to that goal.

As we saw....it had some problems. Notably burn-out.

A shorter season might be the remedy to that. A 4 week season with a 1 week break in the middle might accomplish that. Or maybe there are other ideas that would work just as well. But...when proposing rule tweaks, I think it would be useful to look back at what the goals of Hydra were, how well did the system meet (or not meet) those goals, and then review whether that goal is still desirable, and if so, is there a better way to accomplish it.

Just as a final example, if one of the goals was to encourage challenges, then it met that goal too. However...maybe that wasn't a great goal. If so, then perhaps it's good to get rid of that. If on the other hand it is a good goal, then maybe we just need to tweak the value of the scoring.
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Post by Lem DeAngelo »

The 2 main things that felt burdensome to me were the 6 weeks length and the double points weeks. I think 4 weeks with no double points would not be too burdensome.

If there are double points weeks or days, then that basically requires that you duel on those nights if you want to be competitive. Rather than having 7 nights to get your duels in you only have a few nights when DoF/DoM/DoS are available. I felt incredibly burned out at the end of week 4 because the double DoS/DoM weeks required 2 of my weekends and I had already scheduled challengs during the other 2 weekends.

I enjoyed the regular point weeks since I did not feel any pressure to duel 4-5 times in 1 night. I picked up a couple of duels each night at a slow pace that didn't interfere with work or home life.

Another idea could be to have two 3 week seasons every 6 months and then have the 2 winning teams duel each other for the 20XX championship.
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Post by Jake »

Lem DeAngelo wrote:The 2 main things that felt burdensome to me were the 6 weeks length and the double points weeks. I think 4 weeks with no double points would not be too burdensome.
Just one thought to that.

The Double DoX points did have a goal. Which was to promote cross-sport dueling.

If you hadn't been incentivized to fight in DoS or DoF, and could have just stuck to DoM, would you have ever tried the other two? I probably would not have particpated in DoM if it hadn't been a double-points week.

But, maybe a different mechanic might have met the same goal of promoting cross-sport activity. Like...a 3 point bonus to any dueler that gets in at least one duel in each sport per week.
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Post by Kalamere »

Jake wrote: The Double DoX points did have a goal. Which was to promote cross-sport dueling.
In the thoughts I wrote up regarding a flat point system, I suggested an alternative to Double point weeks that I think still serve to promote multi-sport duelings. The points would need to be altered I think to work in a differential system, but the premise remains the same.

A weekly point bonus to people who log a duel in all 3 sports. A larger bonus if they score a win in all 3.

Jake, I get the point about not counting anything against people. I can't say I entirely agree, but I see where you're coming from. So, that aside, if we were to keep a differential system what about dropping the number of top duels from 4 to 3?
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Post by G »

All Hydra duels should be fought at the level of the Lowest Ranked Duelist. So, if a duelist is a commoner, the Baron fights at commoner level. And so on, and so forth.

That should discourage the lowbie farming that was used by certain teams.
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Post by Andrea Anderson »

G wrote:All Hydra duels should be fought at the level of the Lowest Ranked Duelist. So, if a duelist is a commoner, the Baron fights at commoner level. And so on, and so forth.

That should discourage the lowbie farming that was used by certain teams.
Would be for the best. But like I posted before, many low ranks asked to be fought at rank this season ( two or three of them didn't like the idea and fought their opponents at their earned ranks ). It would be appreciated if a newer player posted if they felt as if they were being farmed.

I recall fighting Zack many times glass vs glass, and he was pretty tough. Jewell kicked Apples butt at rank with a good spinkick and her fancies when she made jade. Ray is a monster to fight at rank, but very fun.
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Post by Jake »

G wrote:All Hydra duels should be fought at the level of the Lowest Ranked Duelist. So, if a duelist is a commoner, the Baron fights at commoner level. And so on, and so forth.

That should discourage the lowbie farming that was used by certain teams.
This however is misleading.

This presumes that rank is actually an indicator of skill, and it's not.

If I come in with Jake, or Matt comes in as Matt, people have an expectation that we know what we are doing, and will be a challenging opponent.

A no-name/new dueler comes in (someone that we don't have years of scouting on) and they can be a MUCH more challenging duel precisely because they are an unkown.

With a rule like the above, I'd be tempted to create a new character, and deliberately not gain rank so that I can force everyone to fight without mods.

I get the sentiment. But it's not a simple as presuming that low rank equates to low skill. I for one found Aenlyn for example one of the toughest opponents in all of Hydra, and early in the season Aenlyn had no rank.

Also, forcing everyone to fight at the lowest rank means the callers are responsible for keeping track of something that's not part of the DoS rules. Generally speaking, if we're going to use regulation duels, we should use regulation rules to avoid confusion. Especially if the point is to bring in new players. The rules should match what the player can expect outside of Hydra.
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Post by Hope »

I am very new to Hydra, having started dueling entirely one week prior to Season 2 starting so a lot of the problems have gone over my head in this topic. However, I have fought duels during this Hydra season at multiple ranks and against nearly all ranks available.

I believe the biggest problem with the Hydra tournament is that the point differential system is broken. The system favors select quality duels over the majority of duels in a weekly frame. The system works by taking the difference of the final score and adding it to a base value for your total gain of Hydra points.

Here's an example:
Let’s say you win four duels, with the final scores being:
  • 5-4
    5-3
    5-2
    5-4
It would take the differences in each (1, 2, 3 and 1, respectively) and would add them to a static base value (5). Those points would then be taken as your earned points for that week; in this example, the player would have earned 27 points.)

Let’s say you think you can do better, so you fight another four duels that went exactly the same way. However, you played an additional two matches that went 5-3 and 5-2, so these matches out-perform your previous 5-4 matches. In other words, your highest point gains would be: 5-2, 5-2, 5-3 and 5-3. So you earned a little bit extra, but at the cost of 50% more dueling. This motivates players to attempt to play as many shutout games as possible in a given week and this is, without a doubt, one of the leading causes of Hydra-burnout.

If a player is attempting to maximize their shutout games, then fighting against lower-ranking duelists would be the best strategic plan for higher-ranking duelists. Due to the Rank disparity on any given night, you may simply not have the option to fight at-rank. There are two options: you fight at-rank of a lower ranked duelist or you don’t. You may not want to take a risk by lowering your rank. The newer player may not fully grasp the whole concept and may just agree to it for a chance at a duel. Although there is no player who is ‘at fault’ in this scenario, it is still a problem.

My Proposal:
What I’m proposing is we remove the differential part entirely and stick to strictly base values dependent on Rank. The idea here is when you win a duel at your rank, you receive the base amount of points. This will greatly reduce the burden on callers during the high-traffic dueling times in Hydra and will make it easier for duelists to keep track of their own points.

I propose that the base wins by rank, if you fight at rank, should be as follows:

Image

**Losses would also yield Points to a certain degree.

Image

So a Glass beating a Glass earns 5 points, an Emerald beating an Emerald earns 7 points, and so on.

Now we’re going to take a look at how this system will handle cross-rank dueling. The Point Differential system is designed where an Emerald has the best opportunity to get points off a shutout victory. This design will benefit you picking easy fights, bottom line. In my proposed system you will receive the most benefit by defeating someone at your current rank, or higher.

When a rank duels their own rank, they get no modifier. When a player duels a rank above their own (but their opponent downranked) and wins, they get a small bonus modifier. When a rank duels a rank below it (having downranked) and wins, they get a small negative modifier, as shown below:

Image

Thus, when regarding the modifiers in the chart above, it is most beneficial for more experienced duelists to duel their own rank. The resulting points from a downranked win is slightly less than winning at your own rank, but still worth the effort if it is the only option at hand. On the other hand, when a low rank player defeats a high rank player, their points will be modified to reflect the difference in ranks.

For example, a Sapphire-ranked player and a Glass-ranked player agree to duel. The Sapphire agrees to downgrade to a Glass rank. If the Sapphire-ranked player wins, he will receive a -1.5 modifier on his final Hydra points. If the Glass-ranked player wins, he will receive a +1.5 modifier on his final Hydra points.

This results in the final Hydra points:

Image

Notice how it becomes very simple: If you beat a Glass, you get 5.0 points. If you beat a Jade, you get 5.5 points. And so on.

The goal of my proposed system is to take what has been considered the core of the Hydra Season 2’s faults and revamp them. You will no longer be scored on how well you perform but instead on who you perform against. You will no longer have to win at least four times a week to hit your point cap; for example, Emeralds can cap in three wins. It gives players the choice on how to cap; you can beat two Emeralds and a Sapphire, or you can beat four Glasses. You could argue that this incentivizes players to play at the Glass level to ‘avoid’ Emerald players, but the impact on Emerald-level games will be negligible, while increasing the number of Glass games and opportunities substantially. The projected values are based on a weekly limit of 20, but can easily be tweaked and remain just as effective. You can argue that the lower ranks will have to duel more than the higher ranks, and that is true, only because they will have an advantage: ranking up will yield a bonus, depending on the determined weekly cap, ranking bonuses will be applied after.

Ideally, with a much more direct scoring for duels, it will be easier to value Challenges and Tournaments alongside them. For example, winning a challenge could secure +15 points to your team’s total at the end of the week. These will be added onto your points, above the cap, just like ranking up. Taking this one step further, if you were to give bonuses for dueling in all three sports, a player can have that bonus added on past their/their team’s cap as well.

I truly believe this will give a better experience to all sides of the Hydra Tournament. Whether you're a returning Emerald, a first time Glass, a Caller or a third-party who wants to help out.

Yours truly,

Queen
Last edited by Hope on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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