Stories from RhyDin & The Rings

A few points before getting into things.

I, like Matt, am always open for these discussions. I generally think things work for the most part and lean against change until it is proven that it is needed. And like Jake said any change takes time so even if something were to come from this, it wouldn't be immediate.

I maintain that there are a number of opportunities to aid lower ranked duelers. It is not an easy game, and there is a learning curve involved. Sometimes you just need to spend time getting the hang of that.

That being said now that Matt brought it up I do remember discussing the advantage persisting through double defense rounds. I remember discussing it when it was implimented for IFL (I don't know where those conversations happened, they'd be nice to go through again). In my opinion of the suggestions you've made it's the most viable of the bunch.

I've been thinking about making several of the same points as Kal all day and have been working/thinking about how to word them and haven't been able to do so yet. Either way I second what he said. It should be hard for the bottom rank to beat the top rank, and I find the test of moving the mods to the other dueler equally flawed, other than to show the advantage of having mods, which I doubt anyone would argue. I'd also point out in the four matches you have as examples, none of them would have gone down any different had the opposing emerald only had four fancies such as in DoS (three used less than the four mods, and the fourth the fourth mod was the final move, meaning there wouldn't have been a time where that fancy wasn't a threat either)

I had also thought to look at some records. A quick glance at your record shows a record of 1-6 the first week against Emeralds. If you chalk even some of that up to getting the hang of things you're in pretty good shape, so it's not like the game is completely fixed.

A few things you missed about DoF being harder/less fair than the other games. Yes DoF has more Mods than the other two, but saying DoM only gets three is pretty inaccurate. A mage gets a completely new move, either of which is not only pretty powerful, but can be used every other round for the whole match.

Also while Glass to Emerald has more of a discrepancy than either of the other two sports, Jade gets twice as many mods as either of the other second ranks. I'd argue that having two mods over one is a bigger deal than six mods versus four. As you said part of the advantage of fancies in DoF is how having them effects the other persons strategy. Having one to use with a second backup is important. Add in the mod of a mentor and with just two wins you're at half of the mods that an Emerald has. If you look at DoS neither having the bonus you have a higher percentage with one rank up, and if you include the bonuses from having a mentor/being a squire (something harder to get) you're even percentage wise.

A quick look at the standings for the cycle show there are 11 duelers who started fresh at 0-0 since the reset and fought more than two fights. Five of them have made it to Jade at least once, and two held Ruby for at least a week. It may take some strategic dueling, skipping a day or two/playing a different character when you get over two wins, but it's far from an impossible task.

The point is, some unbalance is a good thing. A balanced matrix is rock paper scissors, and the optimal strategy for that is a random number generator.

I'm sure I'll add more later. It's a lengthy topic to discuss.

Sample Duel 4: Glass vs Emerald

01. Snap Kick – Jab 0-1
02. Dodge - Leg Sweep 0-2
03. Leg Sweep – Uppercut 1-2
04. Snap Kick – Flip 2-2
05. Leg Sweep – Fancy Dodge 3-2
06. Chop – Fancy Duck 4-2
07. Jab - Fancy Dodge 4-3
08. Chop – Jab 5-4

I’m sure we could find dramatic swings in the scores with all of the ranks in all the sports, but these were from my own collection and the last two picked at random (random by selecting someone I’ve dueled multiple times and picking the first duel with them I found).

I don't recall my own side of it, but I have this from a duel between us. This is actually our second duel. Our first duel you won 5-2. And that's probably why you saw the fancies in the second duel.

I have to say that I agreed with Mur's comment about just switching the moves not being a viable way to show how it would be reversed. I don't think I used the defenses much at glass level.

Also, Jake is correct in that the "avoid emeralds" and "duel like mad" are two separate tactics---one to gain rank, the other to learn (and ignore the WoLs).

Candy Hart wrote:Also, Jake is correct in that the "avoid emeralds" and "duel like mad" are two separate tactics---one to gain rank, the other to learn (and ignore the WoLs).

It's simple, really. If you want to rank up this is the simplest tactic.

Problem: There's no Glasses to fight in the room. I don't want to -not- duel because no one there is my rank.
Solution: Make an alt. Sit your main in the chat with you. Duel all ranks on your alt for practice / fun while waiting for a glass to show up and fight you on your main.

Problem: There's glasses in the room but they are RPing instead of dueling
Solution: PM them asking if they want to fight. If not, onto the next one.

I've made emerald 3 times and I'm working on my forth right now. I've used the ALT + Main in room every time to keep myself from being bored. Sometimes I only got 2 duels on my main-ranking character for the whole week, but that was fine with me. Ranking is a slow process.

You have to play smart if you want to rank up. That's the biggest advice I can give to a new player. DoF might be the "hardest" of the duels, but that's not a bad thing. Some like playing games with harder difficulties than others and there's no reason to change things to make it easier for newer players when many have already overcome the learning curve.

Also on the subject of Mods. Six really -isn't- a lot. Let's look at it this way.

DoS: A Warlord shotguns fancies on a commoner and each work. 4-0 in 4, all they need now is a trade and bam - the fight's over. There's a very - VERY high % that they'll get it too.

DoM: Focus Bombing. 4.5-0 in 3 rounds if they are successful in all offensive spell usage. If traded? 4.5-3 in 3.

DoF: Player 1 ( Emerald ) Fancies Dodges. Player 2 ( Glass ) Dodges. Null round, no one gets points, Emerald has 5 fancies left. Compare this to a Warlord Fancy Sidestepping past a failed C/L Parry. Both are defensive moves, but the Fancy Sidestep wins out.

There's the reason why six isn't that bad of a number. When you can simply null their mods by defending or attacking / nulling their feints with a failed ( yet lucky at the time ) move on your side.. Why give Emeralds a bigger disadvantage by taking mods away?

My point is this. DoF is not DoS and DoF is not DoM. You can't look at the sport with DoS / DoM goggles on or use the same tactics as you can there. It's its own individual sport with different tactics and thought patterns. Coming into DoF with a DoS/DoM mindset is going to be a loss on your part.

Seirichi wrote: I've made emerald 3 times and I'm working on my forth right now.

Seirichi wrote: DoF might be the "hardest" of the duels,

Gold. Time for a new sig.

I dug around on the old DoF Standings to see when my first week was

1/15 to 1/20 of 2010 was the first time I or any of my alts ( which was only Seirichi at the time ) was introduced to DoF. My starting scores for that week were 2-1. Going over the next few months, I bounced around with my WoL's which was the normal learning curve, then left the duels for some time before coming back.

2010 - almost the end of 2012. 3 Emeralds, One Ruby, One Glass on the current standings: 71 - 8 - 0 all together score. I was a new player at the time ( in 2010 ) without any previous knowledge of the game and was able to do it. Another player I have to note is Candy, who started dueling DoF -after- me and is now 100 WoL's. Hell, even Rachael Douglas was in the negatives for a year + 2 weeks before Candy helped her became Emerald by using the same tactics many already listing here. She then became Ruby a week after that. Four weeks later; Sapphire. Three weeks after Sapphire; Emerald. This is the same tactic I used for Nayun ( who at the time was around 3-8 WoL's ), and King. Fight your rank or below.

Ranking shouldn't be easy. There needs to be some dedication and putting in work. Giving new players to the sport too much advantages will make things stale and create boredom. What to Emeralds get at higher ranks? The chance to fight in the DQ, challenge for Opals, and six mods. That's it.

In DoM you get an RP Tower and a special move called Elemental Fury. You can challenge as soon as you hit 2 WoL's with 2 weeks activity.

In DoS you get a Manor, get to be on a barony council ( if it's still active? ), now get to be on the GAC commity for the Governor storyline on RDI, the ability to step in on Overlord challenges / Having an Overlord step in on yours.

The games are by far different from one another and that's why they have their own following. If everything was more stream-lined and the same, what would be the point of playing DoF if it was DoS with a bigger matrix?

This is coming from a person who likes being at the disadvantage. Who likes going against the odds and somehow winning. Who enjoys trying even if they fail and trying again 30 days later. Ranks and Titles shouldn't be an easy thing.

Not to derail the main topic, but since it's been mentioned a few times, I want to briefly address 'difficulty'.

Some have written that DoF is the most difficult or the hardest out of the 3 dueling sports, and for some folks, I believe that's 100% true. And yes, DoF has feints, which involve a learning curve the other sports don't have (esp. if you consider DoM's Foci as a super-powered Fancy since it boosts offense as well as defense).

However, I believe that a player's difficulty with any sport lies, at least in part, with that player. To use myself as an example, DoF is the 'easiest' sport for me, the player. It, to me, has the most flexibility, the most options, and the most potential room for forgiveness for when I make a mistake.

On the other hand, for me, DoS is the toughest sport because I find the matrix too limiting and my choices always seem constrained, especially because I am more used to 14 move choices (DoF) as opposed to 10 (DoS, and two of those 10 - Disengage and Slash - I rarely use. To be fair, 3-4 of the DoF moves are very situational and I rarely use those as well, but I find that I still wind up with more overall choice in DoF).

I do think DoF's potential learning curve is higher than the other sports, partially because it has the largest matrix* as well as the feint system, but I would argue that at least in some cases, those factors don't necessarily equate to DoF is the hardest/most difficult sport to learn or to play.

*Technically, DoM has 15 moves in total but you acquire your 13th at Mage (NR/IM), your 14th (NR/IM) if you attain Mage Emeritus, and the final move (EF) which could be your 13th, 14th or 15th depending on rank, if you win a Keepership.

Seirichi wrote:What to Emeralds get at higher ranks? The chance to fight in the DQ, challenge for Opals, and six mods. That's it.

We also get Slugfest tournies.

Goldglo wrote:...On the other hand, for me, DoS is the toughest sport ...

And for me, it's still DoM. With both DoF and DoS, there's an order of precedence. A is stronger than B, and B is stronger than C, which generally also means that A is stronger than C. In DoM, that's kind of turned on its head. Some moves that seem "fast" lose out to moves that seem like they are "slower", and it comes across unintuitive. But, that's my experience.

My point being, each matrix has folks it makes sense to, and each has folks it seems to be an unwinnable chaotic crapshoot.

Jake wrote:

Seirichi wrote:What to Emeralds get at higher ranks? The chance to fight in the DQ, challenge for Opals, and six mods. That's it.

We also get Slugfest tournies.

WHICH YOU BEAT ME AT.. TWICE!

Goldglo wrote:However, I believe that a player's difficulty with DoX lies, at least in part, with that player. To use myself as an example, DoF is the 'easiest' sport for me, the player. It, to me, has the most flexibility, the most options, and the most potential room for forgiveness for when I make a mistake.

I have to agree. DoF is by far the easiest of the duels for me as well. When you screw up, you KNOW what you screwed up in. For me in DoS when I screw up, it's mostly luck of the draw for my opponent since the move selection is so confined; and it's one thing I enjoy about DoS. The sports are two different things and make you think two different ways.

DoM is my worst sport.

DoS = Checkers
DoF = Chess
DoM = Tiddlywinks ( Joking! )

Without getting too deep into the carried advantage idea...

It's a novel idea (tho' I think I agree with Seirichi's assessment...I'll have to think about it some more), however it doesn't *feel* right to me.

The concept of the Advantage I liken to the idea of "catching someone on their back foot" in a fight. Essentially, catching them off-balance. Which is why it's called a positional advantage.

However, that's something you have to exploit right away, or your opponent recovers their balance. They don't just stand there off-balance.

To me, it makes "sense" that the Adv is temporary. Use it or lose it.

I will go into the mechanics stuff a little later.

Seirichi wrote:

Jake wrote:

Seirichi wrote:What to Emeralds get at higher ranks? The chance to fight in the DQ, challenge for Opals, and six mods. That's it.

We also get Slugfest tournies.

WHICH YOU BEAT ME AT.. TWICE!

Yeah.

But you still love me, right?

And, damn, but you are getting sneaky.

Seirichi wrote:DoS = Checkers
DoF = Chess
DoM = Tiddlywinks ( Joking! )

LOL

Jake wrote:

Seirichi wrote:

Jake wrote: We also get Slugfest tournies.

WHICH YOU BEAT ME AT.. TWICE!

Yeah.

But you still love me, right?

And, damn, but you are getting sneaky.

I should have Seiri challenge for ShadoWeaver just to show you how sneaky I can possibly be! But I'll wait till after Myria.

Kalamere wrote:I think the problem we’re having is one of perceived fairness. That it should be more of a fair fight when a glass and an emerald get in the ring. Why? Certainly we would expect a novice fighting a black belt (and adhering to the rules) to lose 99 out of 100 times. Why does that go out the window here?

This to me is the crux of this thread. The idea that Emerald vs. Glass needs to be more fair for some reason. And that mentality stems from DoS. DoS has always had the best parity of all the sports. It's not uncommon to see a Commoner defeat a Warlord, or lower ranks defeat titleholders. As a lower rank you don't feel that you're at a huge disadvantage when dueling an upper rank, so when DoS transplants come to the other sports, they don't understand why there's a *larger* chasm in DoF. I completely agree it's larger, but it's not unconquerable by any stretch of the imagination once you learn how the system works. I think the various individuals in this thread that have several upper ranked alts can attest to that fact.

To address the proposed "fixes" to this, the only one that makes sense is the carryover advantages, which Seirichi pointed out we tested the other night. The problem with this is that making defenses more worthwhile for a Glass is virtually meaningless since Emeralds have their own counter for that. It's called the feint.

Right now, because defenses only yield advantages most Glass duels are heavily offense, which leads to Emeralds using fancies when they decide on a modifier. Fancies = Offense Beaters. If you change the system to carryover advantages, therefore making regular defenses more dangerous, Emeralds are just going to counter with feints. Feints = Defense Beaters. If you as a Glass expend your flip at a key moment, in the carryover system instead of taking the free jab an Emerald will simply start feint jabbing you. Then we'll hear about how the system is imbalanced because upper ranks have two types of mods and Glasses have none.

One of the key factors in this discussion is the fact the original post only looks at this game from a single perspective. That of a struggling Glass. Virtually every single person that's posted, from Mur to Candy to Kalamere, has seen the game from *every* perspective. Glass/Glass, Emerald/Glass, Emerald/Emerald. We've been through the ranks from top to bottom. We've all see the game from every level and understand the nuance. I don't think the idea of having trouble at the Glass rank for a few months is enough of a perspective to decide there's a flaw in the system.

As others have stated, each sport is unique and appeals to a particular audience. There's a reason everyone isn't an aggressive three sport duelist. Before DoM4 I thought DoM was effing terrible. The duels were long, it was a hurdle to try and make any rank whatsoever, etc. But I just put my head down and pressed forward. I adjusted myself to the system, rather than expecting the system to adjust to me. Overcoming an Emerald's fancies is something the player should do for themselves, rather than have the system changed to do it for them. It's strategy. It's tactics. As it's been stated before, DoF is the chess of the sports. It takes a keener eye and sharper instinct. You can't look at it in comparison to how anything else works.

In summation, I don't think the gap between Emerald and Glass is something so detrimental to the game it needs tweaking. If the idea is to gain rank, people have posted several ideas here for doing that. A Glass is never *forced* to fight an Emerald. Even in a room of nothing but Emeralds, there's always the option to come back another day as a last resort. DoF is open 5 days out of the week.

I wanted only to comment on the suggestion of the carryover advantage, but before I do I will say that the problem of new duelers struggling to gain rank in any one sport goes beyond the games themselves, and so changing any one game will not solve the problem.

For those of you who aren't aware, I was the IFL Chairman, and so incorporating the carryover advantage into the 2nd season was my idea, and, had there been any subsequent seasons of IFL, the carryover advantage would have continued. It is not a significant change to the game; rather I would call it a "fine-tuning". Let's explore:

First, let's establish that the advantage ("ADV") in DoF is significantly weaker than ADVs in the other sports because it is capable of being wiped off the score, unlike in DoS or DoM where you get a permanent 0.5 point that you can build on until the end of the duel. What this does is promote offense among Glasses, because you want real points. As you move up in rank, you get mods and start using more defensive moves because those will now get you real points and you still have all of that offense coming at you. Then, as you move further up in rank and work in even more defenses, you encounter a third level of strategy, i.e. feints, which are immune to defenses (unless you count Flip as a defense, which I don't). Isn't it wonderful how this progression mirrors real life?

Second, let's establish that the ADV is an in-character scoring convention, meaning that when you score an ADV, the caller notes the advantage on their in-character scorecard. It is not something that is kept track of strictly out-of-character.

Third, let's define a round as it takes place in-character. A round begins at the signal of the caller, usually with both fighters in a ready stance. The fighters engage. The fighters disengage; score is tallied. The fighters retake their stance. The round ends. Yes, you do have those heated duels, usually challenge matches, where a 3-duel match can feel like one long round with both fighters constantly going at it and the caller fumbling about trying to figure out how to subdivide the flurry into individual rounds, but that's the exception, not the norm. Also, I hope this definition is successful in disputing Jake's notion that the ADV is a positional advantage, because, if fighters are disengaging between rounds, any positional advantage would be lost.

What the carryover ADV succeeds in doing:
- Strengthen the DoF ADV to a modest degree by giving the ADV-earner more opportunities to convert.
- Keep the mindset of the opponent consistent: instead of their considering playing the percentages and going defense knowing they will wipe out the ADV even if they don't get one of their own, their focus remains on choosing a successful scoring move.
- Make more sense in-character: If you earn an ADV, a referee wouldn't take your advantage away because you couldn't convert it immediately while you and your opponent were fumbling about, because you earned the thing; instead, they would take it away because your opponent legitimately stole it from you with a successful move.
- Provoke more "dead" rounds, i.e. defense vs. defense. I see this as the only potential negative. I emphasize potential, because I don't see how encouraging Glasses to use more defense (i.e., to use all the moves in the matrix) hurts the game, and given the inherent weakness of the DoF ADV, as already established, Glass-vs.-Glass duels will always lean toward being heavy on the offense regardless.

In summary, adopt the carryover ADV to fine-tune the game, not to fix the problem that prompted this thread.

Harris wrote:And that mentality stems from DoS. DoS has always had the best parity of all the sports. It's not uncommon to see a Commoner defeat a Warlord, or lower ranks defeat titleholders.

Once upon a time, the DoS chasm was much more significant. The fancy rule before January of '95 was that a fancy always scored half a point, but that you were capped at 1 point per round. This held true even if you were hit.

I FLP and you LC? I still get half a point for that, even if you did hit me and score a point yourself

The system essentially gave warlords 2 points out of the gate.

18 years later I don't think we're going to revisit that, but perhaps it did go too far in the other direction.