Age Appropriate Live Play

[Royal]

I can understand the idea of age appropriate play. I would say our server is milquetoast compared to many. We have players who choose to censor their own cursing, we have players who choose to not play certain characters in public due to how they act, etc. I think players should look at themselves and have a good idea of what is a good idea to play or not, or to be respectful of certain events or settings — but on the other hand we have the idea that others can't dictate how someone is to have their fun and if no rules are being broken then that's how it should be. This is understandable as well and by the rules, not wrong.

Much of what I've seen on this server is what could be seen during prime time television. We see drug use, we see sexual content that keeps within the boundaries of the right side of a line, we see violence, blood, etc. This does not equate into 18+ activity, if it did then the CSI's, Law and Order's, and many other shows would be regulated to cable networks. Titanic would be rated R instead of PG13 if we look at all the sexual content it had if we use the same logic.

I would very much like to see logs of graphic depictions of sex acts if there is a guideline being broken. If it's simply alluding to sexual activity, then we would need to open up the conversation to something much broader. What is indeed too sexual? What is too violent? What is too against the sensibilities of some and not others?

[Michelle Montoya]

I’m just wondering where the age appropriate line should be drawn and why certain characters get a free pass and others don’t.

To address this directly, we do not have a minimum age requirement. We also do not have a "rating". We are not marketed as PG-13, or 18+, or kid-friendly, family-friendly, or NSFW. Our Community Guidelines allow for different content on the forums versus the Discord server. I think it's difficult to draw an age-appropriate line within our current structure because there is no hard and fast line.

I’m hoping we, as a community, can have an open and honest conversation about this and understand the discomfort felt by other members in the community other than me.

This is, in my mind, a separate issue. If we accept the precedent that we do not have age restrictions or age-appropriate lines, but rather Community Guidelines that do not fit into an "age" box, we then move to a discussion about what people feel comfortable with and if we should change the Community Guidelines.

For example, I am not comfortable with gratuitous swearing. This is permitted by our current guidelines. I appreciate people who use spoiler tags (but that is their choice and not a rule), I glaze over it when they don't, and I leave when it goes beyond my tolerance. I am not suggesting we change our guidelines to add restrictions to language, but that is an example of "discomfort felt by other members" which could, theoretically, be turned into an actionable guideline.

I am interested in hearing what changes the community would like to see in our guidelines, if they want to see changes at all.

[Felicity Lakeman]

I wasn’t going to chime in, but I’ve been trying to fall asleep and I can’t because I’m thinking about this thread. I don’t blame the person who made the post for protecting their identity. How would everyone respond if you had that information? Personal experience? Not kindly.

We have members joining the community from all over and of all kinds of ages and this hyper-sexuality is what they are being exposed to.

This is something I agree with. We have 13 year olds joining our server and there is hyper-sexual play. I play Sylista and she has been sexual in the past, but it’s never like what I’ve seen recently. Hell, she’s been in sex work since I first introduced her because it was part of her pre-Rhy’din backstory. That has never been the whole focus of her character. Some people didn’t even know or remember because it isn’t mentioned often.

If you do not like what is being depicted, the simplest solution (and likely one most endorsed by the guidelines as they are written) would be to block those involved so you needn't see it.

If a player wants their character to be in a room like the Arena for the duels, it would require at least three or more people blocked to miss that play. I don’t know if you’ve ever played in a room where more than one person is blocked, but you miss so much. There are also those who block players and still open the posts and react to them. It’s a weird system.

I think we should change our rating if you will so we aren’t potentially exposing minors to themes we could get in trouble for. Kids are going to join regardless if they want to, but indicating the site is meant for people over 18 will cover asses.

The level of sexuality wouldn’t bother me so much if I knew that the younger folks weren’t included in the target demographic.

[Royal]

I think the subject should be more of what should added and amended to the community guidelines instead of a broad label of 18+. If we read the thread and the feelings posted in it, adding the 18+ label would not solve much of the issue and instead perpetuate it. It gives off the wrong intention due to the taboo the rating associates with. Can we have more context? The bot automatically DMs a person once they enter the server and offers them links to the website and suggests the guidelines. The guidelines on the site state:

Again, we know sexual and violent content has a role in storytelling. Such content that is a part of your story is welcome on our forums. We suggest that explicit material of any type be labeled with an "Adult Content" warning on the forums to make sure that no one stumbles onto something they do not wish to see. For the same reason, sexually explicit material is forbidden in the live chat. If a scene is becoming intimate, we encourage you to relocate to a private chat. We encourage you to use your best judgment when it comes to violence in live play.

Sexual content involving underage characters is forbidden on both the forums and in the live chat. No exceptions.

We then have to ask ourselves: What is explicit in this case? Is writing sexual acts explicit, or is alluding to it explicit. Do we instead keep to a puritan standard and deem anything alluding to sexuality out from the room? Does this only count to sexuality, do we encompass violence? If we go by standards of movies and television, then would our community be deemed 18+?

[JC]

If you do not like what is being depicted, the simplest solution (and likely one most endorsed by the guidelines as they are written) would be to block those involved so you needn't see it.

If a player wants their character to be in a room like the Arena for the duels, it would require at least three or more people blocked to miss that play. I don’t know if you’ve ever played in a room where more than one person is blocked, but you miss so much. There are also those who block players and still open the posts and react to them. It’s a weird system.

I think we should change our rating if you will so we aren’t potentially exposing minors to themes we could get in trouble for. Kids are going to join regardless if they want to, but indicating the site is meant for people over 18 will cover asses.

The level of sexuality wouldn’t bother me so much if I knew that the younger folks weren’t included in the target demographic.

I *have* been in a room where multiple people are blocked because I block people that negatively contribute to my time around the server. You know, like the guidelines say to do. And somehow I still manage to have a full and fruitful dueling experience. I play fine in non dueling rooms too with people blocked. If someone is putting stuff to screen that truly bothers me, I gain little from continuing to include them in my play or dueling or whatever.

As Michelle mentioned, we don't -have- a rating currently. It's not a PG-13 server, it's not an R server. It's not an 18+ or 13+ server, you aren't even required to acknowledge any sort of age thing when signing up for the board. It's just a server with guidelines to abide by. And as myself (and others) have mentioned, the stuff that gets put into the room is stuff that could just as easily end up in PG-13 movies like Titanic with its visible boobies (not allowed here) and its sex (not allowed here) and violence against women (allowed here in some capacities) and language (allowed here) and talk about french prostitutes (depends on who's around but by the rules would be allowed).

I'd love an actual example of explicit shit getting thrown into a live room. Something that would constitute an 18+ label by generalized standards. I've not seen any, but as I don't read every single send here, I could have missed something.

At most, I'd venture we slap something equivalent to the "Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB" notice that goes on games with ratings. Like hey, it's not an 18+ rating but there may be adult themes here. Please utilize your judgment as to whether those themes are right for you.

[Michelle Montoya]

The level of sexuality wouldn’t bother me so much if I knew that the younger folks weren’t included in the target demographic.

We are not targetting a specific age demographic, nor do we advertise to be PG-13 or kid-friendly. There is also, according to this thread, mixed feelings about representing ourselves as an 18+ only group, which comes with certain expectations about what kind of content is allowed.

I think we should change our rating if you will so we aren’t potentially exposing minors to themes we could get in trouble for. Kids are going to join regardless if they want to, but indicating the site is meant for people over 18 will cover asses.

According to Discord's policy:

"Adult content is anything that would be unsuitable for those under the age of 18 to view." Their description includes references to explicit content.

Examples:

• The most effective way of limiting the chances that your teen runs into any NSFW content would be to only allow them to join servers that do not contain channels that allow adult content. A good place to start would be to look towards Partnered Servers. Servers that are officially partnered with Discord (partnered servers) do not allow any explicit adult content.
• Please note that sending explicit content to users without consent and to children can be reported to Discord Trust and Safety.

As it stands, our Community Guidelines are in line with Discord's policy, terms, and conditions. Implicit written content (such as innuendos, or playing a character who works in the sex industry) within our RP rooms does not violate our guidelines or Discord's policy. Explicit content (such as describing genitalia in detail or playing out a pornographic scene) violates both our Community Guidelines and Discord's policy regarding SFW channels. Explicit content on our forums is not regulated by Discord, but we do encourage NSFW tags on the forums if your content falls under that category.

In the interest of being thorough, content involving minors (characters and otherwise) is different.

Our Policy: Sexual content involving underage characters is forbidden on both the forums and in the live chat. No exceptions.
Discord Policy: You may not sexualize minors in any way. This includes sharing content or links which depict minors in a pornographic, sexually suggestive, or violent manner, and includes illustrated or digitally altered pornography. Content depicting minors in a suggestive or sexual manner, fictional or otherwise, is against Discord’s Terms of Service and Community Guidelines, and should be reported to Discord’s Trust and Safety team.

In other words, our Community Guidelines follow all legal and Discord policy requirements. If you do see a violation, please contact a Staff member.

All that being said, we can be following all the rules and people will/are still feeling uncomfortable. Aside from labelling ourselves 18+ (which may come with other responsibilities on our server and forums), are there specific recommendations for changing our Community Guidelines? Things people want to add? Modify?

[MC]

I rarely tend to toss my two cents into conversations like this, about the state of things or the state of Roleplay both on the forums and/or live play mostly because I often feel I have a very different take on things. This is due, in part, to being one of the younger members of the community, and for many that did not know this prior, I practically grew up in the RoD's previous community (The old forums). I will also quickly add, I will do what I can to Quote people directly, but honestly, this will be more of an Op-ed piece.

I have been watching the Discord and forum play lately and I am finding the excessive and gratuitous displays of sexual behaviour far beyond what is age appropriate.

I quickly want to make a take on this. Mostly due to a very specific note: Lately. The use of this term is speaking on the past few months of content that is on the forums and live play... However as many do know I joined the former website at the ripe old age of 13 and I can very much so tell you, especially now as I have gone back to re-read old pieces on the old forums, this sort of behavior has been in the community in a fairly prevalent way as far back as I can remember. I am certain there are others who could do even more digging through even older logs that date back before I was even potentially born and find the same sort of activity in and around the origins of this community.

We have members joining the community from all over and of all kinds of ages and this hyper-sexuality is what they are being exposed to.

Hyper-Sexuality. I... have much to say about using this sort of wording. Specifically this sort of wording, and this may come across as an attack but I won't apologize for stating it. If this is Hyper-Sexuality you clearly haven't seen other RP communities on Discord, forums, chat-rooms, or Video Games. As someone who has several thousand's of hours of Conan Exiles RP, where the majority of servers are 18+, non-consent servers and I have seen some Hyper-Sexualized content. Nothing here has garnered anything close to such content here.

For those questioning about PG-13 v 18+ rating, here are the PG-13 guidelines:

This rating is a stronger caution for parents that content included may not be appropriate for children under 13 (pre-teen ages). This may include stronger language, extended violence or sexual situations and drug-use. Remember, the content will vary with each movie, so check the specific movie rating for the film you are researching.

Of which I would like to quote: extended violence or sexual situations. While I know that argument has been put to rest by staff, I just wanted to throw in my pennies.

Lastly, to people who are feeling discomfort. We all are capable human-beings who have, for the most part, spent years around each other. I can only speak for myself on these things: There have been things that have caused me to not enjoy scenes or live-play. Either due to discomfort or other issues that abound and I continue to power through myself. You have to do what is best for you. Sometimes you have to leave scenes or block people, or simply ignore certain circumstances. Unfortunately, there is no one way to give up a solution to the discomfort issue. I have certain people blocked to avoid such issues myself, while there are others that do cause me discomfort and I still roleplay with, and through the discomfort.

Regardless, these are my thoughts. Enjoy.

[Morgan LaLuna]

I was going to remain silent on this. I have thoughts.

My first is to reply to the accusation that any of the foods at the Air Tower Party were “drugged”. The intended implication was that these foods were known NATURAL aphrodisiacs, also known to be further relaxing in an already relaxing environment. Alcohol was also being served. All of these things were made clear in the post I wrote.

“Air elementals wander from place to place with trays of finger foods and delicacies meant to share, drinks, and soft, airy pastries that seem to further relax and loosen guests.”

This was the line in question, I assume. The party was meant to also coincide with Valentine’s day, and the playful insinuations of lovers disappearing for a few moments is not inappropriate at all. This is not by any means out of any line; Beltane is a yearly event that explicitly states the presence of tents meant to house lovers in a private setting.

That children were not allowed at the event in question was perhaps the most appropriate way to handle it.

I do not believe hyper-sexuality is, in any way, shape, or form being “promoted”. It has always been, and always will be part of the community as a whole.

I will have to agree with some other players here that to mark our community as 18+ will do no service to the site or the server in any capacity. There is no difference between what you can see on our server versus watching something as benign as syndicated television.

We are not responsible for other people’s children.

Here is the link to pictures of the food in question at the party, in case anyone is curious.

viewtopic.php?p=199909#p199909

[Dillon T Jones]

Thanks homie. Your response, and others, told me everything I wanted to know. I just can't leave a puzzle unfinished, even something as easy as this one. >=)

[Pharlen]

Wow. Spend a day running your kitty to an emergency vet because she got her tail smacked in the door and all hell breaks loose.

We've done this for years if not decades. We know when it's getting saucy and when it fade to black. Slut shaming is a bygone thing. Just because a character's acting sexually available doesn't mean they need to be pulled out. If the player's crossing the line, a little message of 'getting a room' usually suffices.

So. Yeah, if someone's bugging you, block them or let them know, Don't block and ignore but mainly...? Just remember, this is RhyDin, we've done this for ages, it's totally okay to show some proverbial skin, but we all know what the line is.

If you're trying to push that line, don't. Because then threads like this happen.

Yes, Beltane is coming up, and yes that's all about sex, and yes, we're all mature enough to keep the good stuff in the messages.

SO if you're feeling called out, you probably were, cast an eye over your play and work it out.

*You are TOTALLY WELCOME to message me and talk if you want to.*

btw, kitty is okay, thankfully!! Tail has a cut and soft tissue damage, but she's already using it again.

[Gothrak]

btw, kitty is okay, thankfully!! Tail has a cut and soft tissue damage, but she's already using it again.

I'm glad your kitty is better. Silly thing.

I understand the advice of blocking people, it's a popular one with everyone. I freaking HATE it...if we blocked everyone that we didn't agree with at one time or another, we wouldn't see half the active RP and that's just ridiculous. Blocking people doesn't solve the issue, it limits the number of players interacting and keeping the server and stories going so it becomes more like a private party than a community. It also keeps people from being able to duel or challenge if both parties are encouraged not to interact. We're a collaborative writing group, right? So...if something bothers us in play we should be able to talk it out with the person, like adults...but if we block everyone before even having that conversation, it just feels...petty.

I know I sometimes feel like I can't approach a person to start that sort of conversation because they'll think it is some sort of personal attack that will get me reported and generally the first person to report things is the one the powers-that-be tend to favor. Squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that metaphor silliness.

...I am glad you brought up Beltane, tho. It's strange how that situation doesn't bother me but the one mentioned by the OP does...probably because of how both are handled?

I think ultimately though, it doesn't matter what I think...and I tend to ramble.

[Royal]

The question is why would you challenge or duel someone who makes you uncomfortable? By requesting to duel them or to challenge them opens yourself up to being brought into that situation. It's one thing to be challenged by someone you, the player, deem problematic and having to go through the process of either keeping them on block and choosing to not RP at all and just send move selections to the bot (or bringing this up to staff should you view it as harassment), but it's another to open yourself / involve yourself with a character that you (general) find unfavorable.

Talking things out isn't always going to get the solution we all want. We can claim that we're listening to each others feelings but at the end of the day many are going to do what they find fun so long as they aren't breaking the guidelines. Sexual assault, slavery, hyper violence, things of sexual in nature, etc. I've seen alluding to such things in live play or even commented upon in the Green Room and when met with criticism resulted in negative reactions by players who felt "called out". This is promoting dialog, but at the end of the day it causes another page to the drama book that is the history of roleplay. This is not new. We seem to have this issue prop itself up every couple of years in the form of one perceived issue or the other and part of me wonders if it's less about outrage and more about one clique disliking something another is doing and if that is the case, blocking is more favorable than hiding behind false smiles and talks of community and togetherness because understanding that not everyone is going to get along and to leave one another alone (blocking) is far more adult then continuing to feed into the drama.

Also: I know I sometimes feel like I can't approach a person to start that sort of conversation because they'll think it is some sort of personal attack that will get me reported and generally the first person to report things is the one the powers-that-be tend to favor.

This is somewhat of an issue. Are you saying that someone was falsely punished or is this a general statement?

[PrlUnicorn]

I have a few things to add here and it's pared down to what concerns me directly.

The first thing is advice to the OP. Do not reveal your identity to anyone. You never know when that trust might be abused. The last thing anyone wants, no matter the subject, is to have something they said in confidence to end up like the old Faberge Shampoo commercial, "I told two friends, they told two friends, and so on and so on." Do not put yourself through that.

As someone that has been playing an underage character for many years and her mother/aunt previously, I've been subjected to the opposite end of the OP's concern. Kids don't belong here, etc. While most players have been very respectful of that choice of character, there have been some that have gone out of their way to try to drive me off. The following is something I need to address:

In the interest of being thorough, content involving minors (characters and otherwise) is different.

Our Policy: Sexual content involving underage characters is forbidden on both the forums and in the live chat. No exceptions.
Discord Policy: You may not sexualize minors in any way. This includes sharing content or links which depict minors in a pornographic, sexually suggestive, or violent manner, and includes illustrated or digitally altered pornography. Content depicting minors in a suggestive or sexual manner, fictional or otherwise, is against Discord’s Terms of Service and Community Guidelines, and should be reported to Discord’s Trust and Safety team.

Many years ago, AOL's Community Leaders were told to give no quarter when dealing with predatory behavior toward children, that included role-play scenarios. It was the one situation where no reminders were given, shoot first and the legal department would sort it out. Child safety was taken seriously. The ages of the players involved were not a mitigating circumstance. The rhydin.org's forum policy addresses sexual content including minors in the forums and in live chat. What doesn't seem to be addressed in the forum's policy or Discord's is whether or not the presence of minor, fictional or real, should cause certain activities should be curtailed or amended. Maybe that does need to be addressed. I would rather not be the reason someone is subjected to any kind of legal ramifications for even a perceived violation of Discord's rules.

That said, I'm not up for further reading of this subject. If anyone wants to contact me privately on the matter, the best way is forum PMs.

[Eden Parker]

What doesn't seem to be addressed in the forum's policy or Discord's is whether or not the presence of minor, fictional or real, should cause certain activities should be curtailed or amended. Maybe that does need to be addressed.

Collie, can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that if there are fictional minors present in a live play that other players should self-censor their own play accordingly?

[Felicity Lakeman]

The question is why would you challenge or duel someone who makes you uncomfortable?

There are Towers, Baronies, and Opals that are important to some characters and would be useful in their RP'd stories. Should we not challenge those titles and wait for someone who we don't have blocked to hold them? What if the person challenged has the other person blocked? Do they get to skirt the abandonment rules?