Age Appropriate Live Play

[CobaltBlue]

I have been watching the Discord and forum play lately and I am finding the excessive and gratuitous displays of sexual behaviour far beyond what is age appropriate. No where in our community guidelines do we have an 18+ policy and, yet, there are caricatures of sex workers (which is an insult to actual sex workers) as well as an “adult only” party where the foods were drugged to loosen people up (which appeared to happen without the attendee’s consent). There was implicit public sex and areas dedicated to it as well. This is the culture RoD is promoting.

We have members joining the community from all over and of all kinds of ages and this hyper-sexuality is what they are being exposed to. I’m just wondering where the age appropriate line should be drawn and why certain characters get a free pass and others don’t.

I’m hoping we, as a community, can have an open and honest conversation about this and understand the discomfort felt by other members in the community other than me.

[JC]

Hard to have an open and honest convo about it behind a throwaway name, but I'll humor this one.

Hi, I play an escort on this very character. Probably not the ones you're referring to as she hasn't been out a lot in the past year or so. But she's been in various lines of sex work for the entire time she's been a character here. As you can see by my join date, that would be almost 8 years now. She was a street sex worker at the start, graduated to a private agency escort, and now is out of the line for the most part. During my time playing her, she (and her sibling who was in a similar profession) would talk about said line of work frequently. I had a whole thread called Call Girl Confessional that gave insight into it and that was back when the site was vehemently PG-13.

Not once have I ever considered Jin's depiction of sex workers to be insulting to actual sex workers. I stand by that.

The more recent batch of whores can be a little caricature-y, sure, but there are so many characters that do the exact same thing to other professions, tropes, mythical races, etc. My favorite example is how the Watch is often times portrayed as Keystone Cop-esque, bumbling, incompetent, powerless force. Isn't that damaging to real police officers? Or do we recognize that this is a fantasy world where anyone can be anything and things may not always be true to life?

Implied sex and adult themes are drastically different than explicit themes/scenes and that is where the line is often drawn here. Innuendo, implication, and other line toeing is how writers establish something occurring without delving into the nitty gritty of it. The guidelines even say:

Again, we know sexual and violent content has a role in storytelling. Such content that is a part of your story is welcome on our forums. We suggest that explicit material of any type be labeled with an "Adult Content" warning on the forums to make sure that no one stumbles onto something they do not wish to see. For the same reason, sexually explicit material is forbidden in the live chat. If a scene is becoming intimate, we encourage you to relocate to a private chat. We encourage you to use your best judgment when it comes to violence in live play.

Implying that sex is occurring is not the explicit material that is forbidden in live chat. While the guidelines do not say it's an 18+ community, it does condone violence, language, and other adult themes that are also 18+. Not explicitly stated, but definitely implied. This is no longer the by-the-book PG-13 site that it was years ago and I think that's more reflective of the community as it is now. I do think people should exercise discretion, but that goes for both those playing and those observing. If you do not like what is being depicted, the simplest solution (and likely one most endorsed by the guidelines as they are written) would be to block those involved so you needn't see it.

At the end of the day, you (general you) are in control of your experience here. The community does a good job of self-policing cringey behavior and that includes using the tools available to curate what you see and not engaging with those who make you uncomfortable. I know I've done that with others in the past and my experience is 110% the better for it. If I don't like what someone is doing, I may say something but it's on them to decide if they want to change it or if I just need to put them on ignore and go back to enjoying my time.

[Eden Parker]

When we developed the community guidelines, we tried to capture the spirit of permissive creativity that this community has always had. As noted in those guidelines, adult themes have long been a part of people’s stories whether that be violence or sexual content. We distinguish between material on the forums and material in live play. And we distinguish between explicit and implicit content.

None of the stories or characters raised for concern by the original poster here violate our community guidelines. Characters and stories that forefront sexuality and those that reference and imply offscreen sexual activity are not the same as explicit sexual material. We see a distinction there, and that alone drives staff decisions on whether we take action.

We each have our own individual sensibilities about what is and is not appropriate---whether for adults or children or anyone. Our community hosts a broad variety of characters and stories, and they won’t appeal to everyone. Some you may enjoy, others you may find downright distasteful. Social mores differ dramatically between people, and that makes it very difficult to enforce any single perspective on a community wide basis.

That said, if this is an issue the community would like to revisit---whether you feel we should label ourselves as an 18+ server, or whether you feel we should develop more robust community guidelines---that’s a discussion we are more than willing to have and consider.

[Gothrak]

There have been lots of pro-sex/sex worker characters in the past, like JC, but they didn't make it be their whole character's personality centered around that aspect. It does sort of feel disrespectful to me too, I know a few irl....and I play Gothrak the hypersexual demon-boy so that's sayin something.

ANYWAY! I had a whole rambling thing written out to respond with specifics but I feel like none of that matters to anyone here so I'll just say, I agree.

I feel like with the content we engage in, especially lately, we really should consider changing the age of entry to be 18+. Keep the explicit content in private but needing to remember to put spoiler tags around curse words or shy away from certain topics is a pain in the ass.

[JC]

Keep the explicit content in private but needing to remember to put spoiler tags around curse words or shy away from certain topics is a pain in the ass.

Spoiler tags are not a requirement as it stands currently. Some people do them as a courtesy. It goes back to what I said about exercising discretion.

[Dillon T Jones]

Speaking out obscenity on a program that has a 'mute' function is a... moot point. Mute people and move on. Then you can get into Super Heaven, instead of just normal Heaven. Super Heaven has a unlimited sea food buffet.

The REAL question that we should be asking, is who the player from the sock puppet account? Now that's something that's interesting to me. Someone wanting to be the moral hero would of put their name on this.

[Igniting Chaos]

I am in agreement with OP, and on that note I would like to point out a couple things, first, the original post was meant to be the start of a conversation regarding the target audience for writing and the discomfort some of our fellow writers/readers feel about content.

Personally, I have no issues with the forum stuff, as long as it is appropriately tagged so people are aware before they click. In live however things have drifted dangerously close to that edge recently, and unlike the forums, content warnings are far more difficult to keep in sight for those who are uncomfortable with the content or underage.

Secondly, I would like to point out that no one can say what does and doesn't make another uncomfortable or upset. I know I usually just click off or not involve myself with content that makes me uncomfortable, though in live that can drastically limit the pcs that I can interact with if it's a busier room.

On the topic of the original conversation, with the content, I feel the shift to 18+ may be the best course, since as far as I'm aware the vast majority of the players are adults, at the very least the vast majority of the active people on the discord are.

[BardGallant]

Really proved the point of the OP feeling the need to post anonymously right out of the gate there by attacking them and more or less saying their opinion is invalid because of it. Well done. Let’s not turn this into a witch hunt. Who they are doesn’t matter as much as what is being said.

Good to know that the suggested solution here is “if you don’t like it, block ‘em!” The trouble with that is, in this situation, I’m going to be forced to block half the community, including some staff.

Funny thing is that I have been following this advice, in a way, for months now. Keeping my mouth shut. Refusing to acknowledge specific scenarios being played out right in front of me. Not having my character(s) react to them, or attend certain events. Glossing over what is sent to the screen and not fully reading it because the content is so glaringly obvious and it makes me uncomfortable. I legitimately quick flipped through a complete chapter of a book recently, because of its gratuitous and wholly unnecessary exposition, before DNFing it entirely. I’m well practiced at not reading what I find personally disturbing.

It’s no secret how I feel about sexually gratuitous conversations and behavior in our community. After all, I mentioned it in another thread not all that long ago, as being one of the main reasons why I keep the Lobby muted most of the time. Now it has extended out of the OOC and into the live played IC, in droves, and that makes me uncomfortable. Clearly, I’m not the only one.

I’m glad somebody spoke up about it, and to me it doesn’t matter who it was. The point is very valid, in my opinion. Much of what I have witnessed lately has been over the top and gotten way out of hand, to the point I have found it bordering on disruptive.

No, it is not against the rules, as it is not “explicit.” Though I daresay it toes the line of what is acceptable or respectable, and what is not. If it were solely limited to forum writings, which I can read or not at my own personal discretion, I wouldn’t be so bothered by it. Ignoring it would be so much easier. Much more difficult to do when I’m expected to do so live, running real time and in my face, and it’s more than half the room engaging the content. Leaves me little choice but to grin and bear it, glossing over things as mentioned above, or leave and play elsewhere, and that makes me feel like I am being deliberately run out of a room. If not the community as a whole.

Now that I have aired my personal feelings on the matter…

Yes, I do feel that we should label ourselves as an 18+ server. However, I do not think it is an either or sort of discussion. I also feel the community guidelines could use some revising to reflect this change, if implemented.

[BlatantSockPuppet3]

"dangerously close" to a line does not equate to crossing it and if anything, moderating by that criteria proves only to continuously push back said line.

if there is content in live play that bothers someone either block it or if you feel it's a violation, report it accordingly.

there are tools for this, i really encourage people to use them.

changing the site to 18+ is not a solution for this in my mind because as it stands, no rules are being broken with any sort of regularity enough to push for a change.

[Jake]

A polite reminder to stay on topic.

Whether or not someone feels secure enough to post with their regular screenname is NOT the topic of this thread. (And is in fact an indictment of how they feel treated. Let's NOT do that.)

[Eden Parker]

First off, please let’s not focus on the use of anonymous names to start or participate in a discussion. I always wish that people would feel comfortable coming forward and talking both with this community and staff, but I know that sometimes people feel more comfortable if they can be stepped back from their opinion. This is especially true when it involves staff members. As we can already see, discussions in our community can get contentious, even when everyone is trying to participate in good faith. Let’s not make that worse and instead do our best to be welcoming and respectful to anyone who expresses an opinion no matter how they choose to do so.

Second, an important note of clarification. The question of whether we label the server 18+ is only a question of labels. By that I mean, the question is do we feel that the guidelines as they are currently written and the content we currently offer requires an 18+ warning?

At the moment, we are not considering allowing explicit content on our server, even if we add an 18+ label. We feel that doing so would constitute a fundamental change to the culture of our community and we are not prepared to consider it.

Last, if you do feel that our guidelines require additional edits, we welcome your specific feedback on what you feel is lacking or needs to be addressed.

[Royal]

I don't understand the logic of asking for an 18+ environment in one turn and in the other stating that play related to sexuality is problematic and wanting to not be part of it or around it. Am I saying that the feelings of not wanting to be around it are not valid? No.

What I'm saying is that I feel the same way when I see bloodplay mixed with romance in rooms, I feel the same way when I see hyper violence, I feel the same way when I see underage characters being involved in violence. There are many situations that I have zero interest in being around so.. I don't.

I recall speaking up in another thread as well that saw backlash for someone "Speaking up". Asking for an event that I was running or part of to be respected. I was told that the play of others means more than what I felt and that if no rules were being broken then I should just deal. So I did just that. No rules are being broken from what I've gathered and if they are I would hope the OP filed a ticket with staff so that it could be looked into.

I'm not for turning this community into an 18+ one. I don't want the label and I don't want others to feel that it actively promotes that style of play.

[JC]

I had a bit to say about the throwaway names and past history around here of them being used to stir the pot (Igniting Chaos? That's a little sus ngl) rather than offering a POV of someone feeling disenfranchised but I see an update to the thread from Royal and it's honestly more what I wanted to touch on anyways. So striking this bit of my ramble and dropping it at the request of da higha ups.

We had that recent thread about being respectful in play and several similar themes were discussed there, including topics of being cognizant of what may make people uncomfortable. Just to reiterate the outcome of *that* thread, the overwhelming consensus was that if you don't like something, don't read it. And that people's play of their characters supersedes people being offended more often than not so long as no rules were being broken, so it was 'ignore it or deal with it'.

Moving on to the point of the actual thread itself; What would an 18+ label accomplish for the server? Will it suddenly make these people that are uncomfortable now comfortable with it? Mind you, much of the stuff being mentioned would not garner an R rating in a movie or an M rating in TV or video games. All it makes me think is that it's just like when the old site was "PG-13" when the stuff restricted would have passed in most PG-13 content. Or would it push out people who have no issue with the stuff happening now but don't want to be associated with an 18+ server? What are the pros of such a label because as Eden said, they aren't considering allowing explicit material and the stuff being put out there right now isn't explicit as is. So what do we accomplish? Not a rhetorical question, legitimately looking for insight because I'm not seeing it.

[Igniting Chaos]

For clarification, the only reason I am posting under this name is it's the only one I have not attached to my main accounts, and I am to lazy to make another for the sake of a single thread. Reading my post, I stayed respectful, I stayed calm, I chose just to state my opinion rather than state examples.

The ignore it or deal with it is far from the original question, which was the age of the audience (Hence the title "Age Appropriate Live Play"), I may not like what I am reading, but as I previously stated, I just click off typically, click off and mute until it is done. Perhaps the line needs to be made more clear in the guidelines for our current age group, but again, that is not the conversation here, it is age appropriate play.

Now, I have said my piece, I have responded to people responding more to my SN than my content, if I have more to add I will, but for now, I am done.

[BardGallant]

I'm not for turning this community into an 18+ one. I don't want the label and I don't want others to feel that it actively promotes that style of play.

You know what? I absolutely agree with you there. With or without the label, though, it's pretty clear that adult content, specifically of the sexual variety, is being actively promoted and encouraged.

No rules are being broken. That's true. All that is being expressed here is opinion. I'm not saying it's bad behavior. I'm just saying it's content I don't personally appreciate and would prefer not to be subject to, but I can deal with it, as I have been. It's my own personal discomfort, and I manage. Now I'm speaking up about it, because someone else did before me, on a topic I agree with to some degree.