A Call For Mutual Respect in Our Community

[PrlUnicorn]

As for the IFL gardens usage instead of a room slotted for regulation that night: It already can and there is a code in place.

I think we have a wire crossed here. Unless things have changed since the Rock Hards and Kings Gambit duel, last week, using ?ifl with the opponent's name and no room code redirects it to the active dueling venue for the night. I'm asking why it can't go directly to the garden without the extra code since that's supposed to be the IFL Venue.

[Royal]

If we go by what is posted viewtopic.php?f=7&p=198195#p197925 here:

The preferred venue for all IFL fights will be whatever sporting venue is open on a given night. (announced in the lobby at 8pm). When starting an IFL fight you will be able to send "?ifl [opponent name]" to the bot and it will start up your fight in the proper room.

In addition to the standard sport rooms, the IFL Garden channel will also return. While the standard venues will be the preference, this channel will be available to those who wish to use it. Please note that the ?ifl command will NOT work for this. To use the Garden in your fights you will need to use the standard ?chal syntax with g as the venue argument. Please also remember to a 1 at the end so that the fight can go beyond 15 rounds if needed. example: ?chal g dof "Jake" 1

So unless I'm incorrect: the IFL Gardens is simply an optional room while the main regulation locations are preferred.

[PrlUnicorn]

If we go by what is posted viewtopic.php?f=7&p=198195#p197925 here:

The preferred venue for all IFL fights will be whatever sporting venue is open on a given night. (announced in the lobby at 8pm). When starting an IFL fight you will be able to send "?ifl [opponent name]" to the bot and it will start up your fight in the proper room.

In addition to the standard sport rooms, the IFL Garden channel will also return. While the standard venues will be the preference, this channel will be available to those who wish to use it. Please note that the ?ifl command will NOT work for this. To use the Garden in your fights you will need to use the standard ?chal syntax with g as the venue argument. Please also remember to a 1 at the end so that the fight can go beyond 15 rounds if needed. example: ?chal g dof "Jake" 1

So unless I'm incorrect: the IFL Gardens is simply an optional room while the main regulation locations are preferred.

Doesn't appear to be incorrect.

[PrlUnicorn]

The idea that the IFL duel should or should not have happened on Twilight Isle should not be the takeaway from this.

You’re right, it shouldn’t. The subject is about bad behavior, perceived or real, and creating a toxic environment.

In the end it comes to choices by the parties who were part of the argument. One which both Claire spoke up about and one which Salvador and others both publicly and privately apologized for.

I read over the Green Room conversation, but am wondering why the separate discussion was needed since it appears that all parties directly involved had settled things. I’m not saying people shouldn’t speak up about what’s bothering them. I often have to take discussions to the boards due to slow typing speed.

So far, Kal is the only one that responded in this thread that was here when I began in the forum in one of one its earlier incarnations. While my length of time taking part doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else, it does mean that I have watched all this go on, over and over in cycles, for years. And, yes, it’s disheartening. It drives people away, but it also can call people to task for their behavior and encourage them to improve. These discussions often allow us to see different points of view, but we must be open to listening to them and not simply wait for what we want to see/hear. One can be waiting a very long time for that.

I think there's maybe more going on here than I see and for all I know discussions have been had in the past, so I'll apologize for whatever layers to all this I'm over looking. I don't see a character's personal physical reaction to being around magic really any differently to Kal's elevator issues. It doesn't read to me like some negative judgment on those characters who suffer no ill effects or even revel in it. It doesn't seem to fall easily into the "own your own jerkish behavior" category to me. It's negative yes, but not overtly insulting. But, again, I have only the logs of the night to read from and may be missing quite a bit.

I think there’s more going on here, too. Past experience or, to paraphrase something you once said, Old Timer PTSD has bells ringing in my head!

We, as a community, have said that having open communication and discussions are necessary to keep things going smoothly around here. It’s an ideal, but it is not necessarily the reality of things. Far too often, I have had my character react to something that was done to them and it caused the reaction of the provoking character’s player getting upset or feeling victimized. ( I rarely assume that a player is purposefully trying to upset or anger me and keep the reaction to “what would Character X do in response.”) The problem is that players that have done that do not always understand that if they want to play their character as a heel then they need to prepare for a reaction in kind from other characters and brace themselves for what they instigated.

If someone is going to behave badly, eventually, someone is going to call them out. Bottom line in that regard is simple, if you are not prepared for the bear to eat you, don’t poke it with a stick! Just because I don’t say, “Hey, YOU, Player X, YOU pushed one of my buttons” with your character’s behavior doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It just means I put my adult pants on, didn’t assume that any given player was purposefully being horrible to me, and rolled with the play in motion. Because that’s how I have done things for a long time, some people have made the mistake of thinking that nothing bothers me. That is until they push the right/wrong button and bam.

As with anything, there are exceptions to me not assuming that someone has gone out of their way to cause me harm or discomfort in some way. Maggie is the second character I have actively played that has grown up over the course of play. I am well aware that some characters react negatively to child and teenage characters in play. However, most players are respectful of my choice to play a young character. When the IC disdain spills over and is projected from all of someone’s characters, including those that have never met her before, then it’s a logical conclusion that it's a player having the issue with me, not their characters having an issue with mine. I refuse to allow people with that sort of prejudice to ruin my time in play. I tend to ignore them, but not necessarily those around them. That might tend to confuse people, but it is what it is.

Claire put it aptly with “when someone tells you that you hurt them, you don't get to decide you didn't.” This is absolutely correct, but how many times have people been hurt, said nothing on the matter, moved on, then learned the person that hurt them was playing the victim card without understanding they provoked a reaction and are blaming their victim for fighting back? It’s much like the schoolyard bully that hides behind the teacher when the other kids get fed up and hit back. Instead of the bully getting punished (based on many current school policies), it’s the one that was seen fighting that gets the punishment or in the case of online communities, victims are sometimes banned or enter a self imposed exile.

Lately, I have commented to others that some of their behaviors have made me uncomfortable, only to be greeted with comments like it might not be to your liking, but it’s not against the rules. The irony is that some that have that mindset are often the first to speak against what troubles them and expect action to be taken while telling others what amounts to suck it up, buttercup when someone expresses annoyance/discomfort about their behavior. That shows great lack of consideration as one shouldn’t expect others to cater to them when they are being inconsiderate dunderheads. I will usually play off anyone’s characters and my avoidance of those players should be rather telling as to how uncomfortable I am around them.

There is a problem with the mindset of “If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.” It prevents discussions like this from happening. Addressing behavior that makes one feel uncomfortable is not nice and it isn’t likely to be easy, but getting things on the table can help to resolve things.

[Rekah Illyriana]

I really love this community. I have for the 20+ years I’ve been a part of it. I keep my nose out of things and write when I can. That said I’m up at 5 a.m. typing my feels because this is all over the place.

Feel those feelings. If you’re upset, that’s okay. Speak up. I hear this on social media all the time that people aren’t being allowed to feel hurt. And it’s not true. You are definitely allowed. But, also don’t jump on someone/something because you perceive it as an attack when it probably isn’t.

FIghts take place anywhere. Maybe Xanth used the Isle to dope up his muscles for the fight. He is a magically inclined fella. Who knows? Should it have happened somewhere else? Also, yes. Did it? No.

People go places they don’t like, maybe they don’t go all the time. Maybe they don’t voice it. But, man, I went to church every Sunday with my family for yeeeeeeaaaars and I definitely didn’t like it. I’m pretty sure I voiced my opinion about it well into my late teens when I stopped going. I know the argument will be, but you didn’t have a choice. Sure, I did. Even as a child I had a choice.. I had the choice of behaving during church, or not behaving because I didn’t like it.

I think the 25 year event is p.rad. I’m jealous I don’t have a character to put into any of the events cause they all look like a lot of fun. It looks like it’s going really well and everyone is enjoying themselves.

ALSO: This year has been HARD AS AF ON EVERYONE. I would like to remind the world this. We are all very much bundled up in our holes of seclusion that it is easy to forget that everyone is having a really hard time. People haven’t had a normal encounter in months, there haven’t been movies, there haven’t been regular gatherings, we only see people’s eyes now, people we know are getting sick, everything is A BILLIONTY TIMES WORSE.

Is teeth-brushing still a thing? (For me? Yes, yes it is.) We just powered through a historical and stressful election that drew lines in the sand like no other. And we are STILL waiting to see what happens. All these things trickle down into your every day lives and into your hobbies whether you realize it or not. So, what could normally be seen a minor slight is now a major one because all of our coping mechanisms are stretched and strained to the nth power already by everyday things.(Grocery shopping, getting gas, planning the holidays, work-because not all of us are so fortunate to be able to work from home.)

I really implore everyone to take a deep breath and exhale on ten. Because, yes things need to find resolutions. (As a team: theCake has agreed to not to schedule any matches on the Isle for IFL so that all parties can enjoy the settings.)
And find their centers and some semblance of peace and further on that thread forgiveness.

That’s all.

I think you’re all p.great and I’m gonna go back to bed now for a bit before I gotta get up and go to work.

-Dani


Addendum: In no way did I intend to infer or transfer blame onto Xanth and Yuzu for the situation. I apologize if that seemed to be the case. -D.

[Josette Wheeler]

Like most things, there is a lot more at play here Kalamere than these recent events and again, it speaks to patterns of behavior. both IC and OOC. I understand that you cannot control what goes behind the scenes, nor should you be expected to do so.

My original purpose was to bring this behavior that has been going on for a very long time to light in order to support Claire and I am happy she felt genuinely heard and respected. I wasn’t about to sit back and watch others try and gaslight her out of her feelings, or for speaking out about them. Others have reached out to me and thanked me for speaking out as well, so I am happy I raised the topic.

Play your character however you wish. I will reiterate what others have said before me: “When someone tells you that you hurt them, you don’t get to decide you didn’t.”

I agree with Rekah, this year has been extremely hard on everyone. A moment of consideration before typing something that could be potentially hurtful to others does not seem like such a tall order.

I appreciate the open dialogue and everyone who has voiced their opinion on the topic, both in dms and on the forums.

[Max Lager]

Hello, I want to start off saying something that some people may already be aware of, but I really do not like confrontation. More often than not I bottle things up and do my very best to brush things off and figuratively ignore them.

I was incredibly angry and hurt by what happened Tuesday Night because it was not the first time I have been a witness to attitudes that are negative in regards to Magic and specifically on Twilight Isle. I left immediately after it happened because I was so upset. I could not speak out about it because I was so upset. Claire and Royal both know how strongly I feel about this, understood and Claire was able to be present and host the rest of the event when I could no longer help out. I am very grateful for Claire speaking out about it in the Green Room when she did because again, I could not speak out because I was so upset.

I am grateful to Josette for bringing this all up because I felt heard in my silence, that I perhaps was not alone in how I feel about this and that a conversation could potentially start.

And start it did, but my conversation happened in private where I was able to express myself and felt heard. I am very thankful for that and for knowing that other private conversations happened where an understanding was also reached. I want to move forward, so I hope that can begin shortly.

Lastly, I want to ask that others stop bringing up IFL, Xanth and Yuzuki’s match on the Isle as being any sort of fault. I do understand that it was the reason why certain characters were on the Isle, but it is neither Xanth or Yuzuki’s fault for any of this happening. They are not to be blamed for any of this. Neither one of them intended to cause anyone discomfort by hosting their match on the Isle, neither one of them have voiced IC or OOC a negative attitude towards Magic.

[Delahada]

Max, I want to thank you for stepping out of your comfort zone (like my character did) to talk to me privately about this issue. I was not aware that my one little grain of rice had been causing you such distress for so long. I only wish that you had talked to me sooner about it, but I completely understand why. I’m glad you took that chance this time and that we discussed our differences. I hope that there are no lingering hard feelings, and if there are you continue to feel comfortable being able to approach me and telling me so.

Yes, it’s true that I have in the past not had the most positive opinion of DoM, but I have tried to overcome that and change my opinion, especially lately. It has been changing, too. Primarily this is due to the hard work that people like Max have been putting into the sport they enjoy most, in trying to find ways to reach out to the community and hook people (like me) who would otherwise be uninterested. I see that effort and the real joy in the writing, in the posts for events, in the involvement, and I like seeing that. Keep that shit up, because it has encouraged me to participate more. The evidence of that speaks for itself.

I have several other characters I use to duel Magic or otherwise support the sport. This one is likely never going to, unless he is given a chance to acclimate and learns to become comfortable with magic being used on and around him. This is a character fault that, as I said, I had written into him long before I even knew about DoM and the Isle. I generally try to avoid taking him there, but when there are good reasons to push him out of his comfort zone I act on them. I apologize if this has hurt anyone by it being perceived as a personal slight aimed against them, or the setting as a whole. That is all I can do, apologize for the wholly unintended hurt I caused.

I want you all to know my writing one character as reacting badly to something is not a reflection of my personal thoughts on that person or thing as a whole. It’s really quite exhausting and absurd how often I have to say this, but I am not my character. Yes, there are pieces of me in the characters I write, as is true of any writer and their creations, but they are not me. Especially this one.

And you’re right, Max. Yuzuki and Xanth are not at fault here. I apologize if in anything I have said linking them to the subject has indicated I am placing blame on them.

[Partly Cloudy]

I’ve thought long and hard about whether to weigh in on this. I was one of the parties involved on Tuesday night, and as I said in the Green Room when Claire brought it up, I am very sorry to have offended certain individuals with something my character said. It was not meant as a slight to the setting or to the players who work so hard to maintain it and make things fun for others. It was simply the character’s reaction to being around so much ambient magic. There are defined and concrete reasons why he feels this way, all stemming from his history, and it was my hope that with repeated exposure to the Isle, he would come to trust that magic there and relax, and maybe even start to engage with that setting. Especially since a friend has asked him to duel magic with her. But I’m not sure that’s going to happen now because to be blunt, I do not feel welcome in this setting any longer.

I’ve promised to be more circumspect in the future, and I will hold to that promise, but in the present, it feels like it may just be easier and more prudent to simply avoid anything to do with Magic. I do not know what everyone’s trigger points are and if accidentally touching one is going to result in a public spectacle every time, I want no part of it. I’m here to relax, curb stress, and have fun, and this week has been the exact opposite of that. I’ve struggled to find the desire to write on the server at all since this happened and have only turned out because my character would be there to support his friends.

To echo what others have said, no, Xanth and Yuzuki are not at all to blame for this situation. I’m sorry if it seemed like I was blaming them on Tuesday night when I mentioned we were on the Isle because that’s where they’d decided to have their duel. That was not intended to be an assignment of blame. It was simply me saying that my character, and his companions, decided to push beyond the boundaries of their comfort zones to support a friend and teammate. Under other circumstances, this would likely be viewed in a positive light and as character growth. It saddens me that in this case, OOC conflicts and feelings have skewed this in another direction.

I don’t know what else to say here. I’m grateful that Claire spoke up and gave me an opportunity to apologize for hurting her because I would never intentionally do so. That’s something I always ask of friends, in fact, because I am human and make mistakes, and I never want there to be hard feelings between us. However, I feel this thread is egregious and superfluous. We are all beholden to a social contract of common decency here. Just as I am responsible for my actions and my apologies, so too are the aggrieved parties responsible for their feelings and how they approach resolution. White-knighting makes an unnecessary show of something that could otherwise be resolved peacefully and privately between affected parties.

If I were a new player, I would seriously consider leaving or avoiding this community right now because this sort of behavior and spectacle do not make for a welcoming environment. Instead, they suggest that we all have hair-triggers and will conduct a show if offended. Any smart person would avoid that like Covid.

[Josette Wheeler]

I was under the impression that this was a community where we were all welcome to have a voice, even if we disagree.

I will not be bullied into silence simply for speaking out about what I saw. I have tried to remain polite and civil in this discussion. In response, I have been met with generalized attacks on having an “overly sensitive personality,” “white knighting,” and that my post was “egregious” and “superfluous.”

Never mind the fact that the people that were hurt reached to me in appreciation for speaking up about this and it encouraged other healthy discussions between players.

The fact that you would suggest a new player leave this community or avoid it like Covid is beyond the pale, insensitive, tone deaf and quite frankly malicious. Your spiteful response is not only extremely telling, but exactly why people are hesitant about speaking out more often about their feelings.

I originally began this thread with the hope of encouraging kindness and consideration during difficult times. Now I don’t feel welcome in this community at all because this post was an attack that was meant to deliberately hurt.

I want to thank those that reached out to me in support and kindness. It is deeply appreciated.

[PrlUnicorn]

I was under the impression that this was a community where we were all welcome to have a voice, even if we disagree.

I will not be bullied into silence simply for speaking out about what I saw. I have tried to remain polite and civil in this discussion. In response, I have been met with generalized attacks on having an “overly sensitive personality,” “white knighting,” and that my post was “egregious” and “superfluous.”

Never mind the fact that the people that were hurt reached to me in appreciation for speaking up about this and it encouraged other healthy discussions between players.

The fact that you would suggest a new player leave this community or avoid it like Covid is beyond the pale, insensitive, tone deaf and quite frankly malicious. Your spiteful response is not only extremely telling, but exactly why people are hesitant about speaking out more often about their feelings.

I originally began this thread with the hope of encouraging kindness and consideration during difficult times. Now I don’t feel welcome in this community at all because this post was an attack that was meant to deliberately hurt.

I want to thank those that reached out to me in support and kindness. It is deeply appreciated.

Hold up. This:

If I were a new player, I would seriously consider leaving or avoiding this community right now because this sort of behavior and spectacle do not make for a welcoming environment. Instead, they suggest that we all have hair-triggers and will conduct a show if offended. Any smart person would avoid that like Covid.

is a personal opinion and is no different than any other issue raised here. New players often see established behaviors in any given community and flee. This mindset was evident in a Lobby conversation not so long ago when a newcomer had thought they wander into a War Zone. Someone piped up and said, "It's cool, we're just blowing off steam."

Like most things, there is a lot more at play here Kalamere than these recent events and again, it speaks to patterns of behavior. both IC and OOC. I understand that you cannot control what goes behind the scenes, nor should you be expected to do so.

Since Gatito's comments were apparently misunderstood, I'm going to address this point that could also be. Watching someone's patterns of behavior could be suspect as to the motives of why someone is doing it. Often we are given only one side of any given story and have no reason to disbelieve the person delivering that message. However, not hearing all sides often leads to festering wounds.

[Eden Parker]

I've mostly stayed out of this discussion because it seemed like it was coming to a healthy resolution through a combination of private conversations between players and conciliatory and understanding posts here. But we seem to be taking a turn here.

I'd like to encourage us all to take a breath and take some time to sit with our feelings before posting anything further for a bit.

It's understandable that there are many people hurt by things that have been said here in this thread. When people feel attacked, the natural inclination is to defend oneself. But I've actually been very impressed by the willingness of the people involved in this incident to speak with each other and try to come to a more positive resolution. That requires a lot of bravery and fortitude. Just because those discussions haven't been here in public doesn't mean they haven't been happening. And I think that's a sign that our community is healthy and mature, even if we still struggle with moments like this.

It's really easy to take things written on these forum posts (and in the green room and lobby) and read them in the least generous way. We start thinking of community members in two categories: people who agree with me and people who disagree with me --- friends and enemies.

Let's try to see our fellow community members with the very respect this thread calls for. Let's allow each other to make mistakes, to apologize, to be sensitive and insensitive, to say the wrong thing and the right thing. Let's be willing to forgive each other. Everyone is welcome here.

[Bailey Raptis]

At the risk of repeating something said by several other people -- and I hope it doesn't come across as less genuine because I'm just now saying it -- I did want to say that I agree with those who said Xanth and Yuzuki were 100% not to blame for this. I apologize if anything that I said suggested otherwise.

[Aiden Harper]

Hold on. Let me get this straight. Some characters were reacting to a setting and a PLAYER took offense to it….and somehow it is the writers of those characters that are in the wrong? Or is it because the reaction was negative that there’s a problem? If the characters had been going on about how wonderful and glorious the setting was, would there still have been an issue? What happened to conflict creating interaction and stories? Or….are we not interested in creating interactions and stories together here?

I could see the point of all this if the setting had been being completely disregarded. If characters had come in reacting like ‘What magic? Feels no magic at all. Twilight Isle magic is a lie.’ then I could see a player getting bent out of shape. But that wasn’t the case.

Then I thought, well maybe these negative reactions were particularly egregious. So I went and looked at the logs. This is what I saw:

Character A: “This place is gross.”
Character B: “I feel like I’m going to need a shower after this.”
Character C: Is grumpy.

These were the character responses that started all this. I cannot possibly imagine more mild, G rated, downright innocuous reactions to a setting. There was no thought sniping, no paragraphs of exposition that no one could react to. There were no over-the-top and vulgar descriptions or overuse of abusive or foul language. No community policies were broken. And then, to top it all off, when the offended player pointed out their discomfort with the writing going on in the room, they were offered apologies and explanations along with assurances that there was nothing personal going on. What more could they do?!

This whole incident makes me cringe and makes me wonder. Should I never take my character who abhors gnomes into the Golden Perch? Oh, no, wait. I can do that I just can’t have them react negatively, right? I have to CENSOR what I write for fear it might offend the gnome loving players out there.

Really? Seriously?

Here’s a reaction from a non-involved community member. I’m GLAD I’m not a part of the dueling community, cause if this is how they treat their own I can only imagine how horrendously they would have treated an outsider.

[Max Lager]

Let’s be clearer on a few things here Aiden. "Some characters were reacting to a setting and a PLAYER took offense to it" -- Players and while I can only speak for my character, at least one character took offense to it. If you’ve read the interaction on the Isle, as well as what happened in the Green Room, you’d see that there was more than one person who did not enjoy seeing a setting at an event spoken negatively about.

I think I will be perfectly clear here: I am the person who has such a hard time with seeing people show a disgust and dislike for Magic and Twilight Isle. If you all must put any sort of sensitive triggered personality label on anyone, then you must place it on me.

And this has developed from both witnessing and receiving interactions much like what happened on Tuesday FOR YEARS often on a much stronger scale. Things like “Ugh, I hate it here. This place is gross. I hate Magic.” This was not an isolated incident; it was the straw that broke the camels back.

And as I stated above, I was so frustrated, hurt and angry that I couldn’t speak about it at all. Only those closest to me, Claire and Royal, knew what was going on in that moment. So imagine my surprise and shock to see a post later created by someone outside of the situation, someone who has just recently started to take an interest in the events on Twilight Isle, in support of how I’ve been feeling for years.

All Duel of Magic is asking of the community is to please be respectful of the setting DURING AN EVENT. Do you go and trample on your neighbors flower garden on purpose? If you did this unintentionally, would you still not be at fault and still apologize? Would your neighbor still be upset because their flowers got trampled on?

I don’t think it is that difficult of a thing to ask for. Generally speaking, when we’re having events there is an unspoken request to not be disruptive. It’s often posted in board only events with the line of “please respect the setting!”

It has been BECAUSE of this thread that I felt that I even could go speak privately to Salvador. And the player apologized to me because they had no idea that I felt this way. Skid has also reached out to Claire, Royal and myself with an apology. Both of which I have accepted and appreciate.

If you’re glad that you’re not a part of the dueling community because “this is how they treat their own”, I hope you can try to see things from mine and Claire’s point of view here for a moment. We’re both duelers, Claire ran Duel of Magic for 5 years before I took over for her, and I’ve run it myself with Royal’s assistance for the last year and a half. And the community by an large has treated Duel of Magic like a redheaded stepchild, a meme to make fun of because its gross and for nerds --- And I’ve been tired of it. I’ve spoken to more than one player about this before when they have upset me, but this is certainly the first time I’ve stated on the forums about it. We’ve worked incredibly hard to drive out that stigma, to push it away, to pull players back into the sport, and to create and provide a bright and vibrant entertaining atmosphere to game in. I think we’re on the path to succeeding this.

So everyone, if you must be upset at anyone, if you must imagine that anyone is asking players to censor their characters, place that on me. I will not apologize for how I have felt for years, I will not believe that my feelings are ridiculous or that I’m overly sensitive, but if you think so: go right ahead. I am not sure how I can otherwise change your mind.