Baron Challenge Grants

[Jake]

But thank you either way for explaining to possibly new players who might not know the difference.

That was largely my goal.

I know it gets confusing.

[Arthour]

((Sorry for the Wall'o'Text and that it's slightly backpedaling on the topic, would you believe it's taken hours to write this up in a way that seems to make sense? XD))


I would also say, if the Halloween/Madness events require 'Special' prizes, then why are said prizes challenge grants that can be obtained through many other means? They seem to be being banded about (That might be a bit too strong, but you get where I'm aiming) a bit too much to claim they're 'special' prizes.
I'm not 100% sure how many Grant challenges have been used this year, but from what I can see, there seems to have been about 4 or so Grants floating around since January this year (I might be mixing one up there, I think. Apologies for that, I tried going through the Arena's challenges but ended up muddling myself up xP.)
These are grants that allow a clear shot at either a Baron or an Overlord and there's two more waiting to be awarded. That means that so far, (assuming my numbers are even half right) there's been about one grant challenge per month this year alone.

That seems a bit too many to be called a special prize for a special event. From what I can see, there seems to be a sort of cycle where Grants get handed out at regular intervals, so maybe these events need to be planned around that to give a little more room between each block of Grant awards? I can understand why they are being used, if an Overlord has a full set of loyal Barons then the only people that can challenge the Overlord are Warlords, who have the prospect of needed to go through a Test of Worthiness, which might put people off or make the high ranks a bit stagnant. Loyal Barons get defended by the Overlord when they are challenged, Loyal Barons slow down challengers of the Overlord, making it take longer for the Titles to change hands.

That, I understand as a very good reason for Challenge Grants, and I agree with this reason. Just not the frequency that Grants seem to be appearing at.



In my view though. Several Challenge Grants that occur regularly in a short span of time make the IC Lore of the Overlord being the Supreme Duelist and the Barons by virtue of being a rank below the Overlord, the duelists who have the best chance of defeating the Overlord, Redundant.
The rules allow the Overlord to get a Baron to test a challenger, ICly, to prove they are better than a Baron (Who, discounting the OL, make up the best of the best duelists in DoS)
If the challenger can beat a Baron, they are therefore worthy of being able to take the title of Supreme Duelist from the current Overlord (Hence why it's called a Test of Worthiness in my mind).


Grants which remove the possibility for a Swordsman, say, of being tested, do not reflect well on the IC Lore of the Duel. But it can be explained and excused ICly. There can be reasons and whys for it explained in such a way that make sense. (And please don't think I'm saying Grants shouldn't be given to Swordsman, ect, that's not what I'm driving at.)

What I am driving at is there is no sense of rhyme as to why there would be a Grant handed out every month, that allow people to take a Barony or the OL title without doing anything more than dueling that one person, without additional challenge to make getting an important title, difficult.
There is no IC way of making this make sense in a satisfactory manner both IC and OOCly.

If we're going to make Grants a more regular thing, if we're going to remove the rules which make getting that Title difficult, which reflect ICly how important that Title is, then we absolutely must make the Lore reflect why it is easier to obtain the titles, why there are more Grants, so that more grants each cycle, less challenge to gain important titles, more titles exchanging hands to keep things from being slow and dull, makes sense to out characters as well as us.




Apologies if some of this seems a little too critical or glaringly missing certain facts/knowledge that you older duelists know. But, you guys are older than me in RoH and would know these things better than me, taking that knowledge for granted that others would also know it. Which they probably do, I easily lose track of information I don't regularly go over and have a poor short term/working memory. Blame dyspraxia for that So If I have made mistakes or missed out on information that would change what I've stated above, I do apologize, this is just based on my opinions of what I've seen as a newer duelist in the last 12 or so months that I've been on the site and what Ive seen/heard/done in that time.

And yes, it does get confusing!! XD

[Teagan]

I don't have much to say right now about the subject except that I also felt the same way Morgan does and expressed that to the people in charge at the time.

As far as I see it, a free challenge is enough of a prize, after that let the other people involved play the game too.

[Rakeesh]

For what it's worth, being a regular title-holder/challenger/defender in DoS, the alignment system and ability to test/intercede in DoS is its very most appealing virtue to me. The politics of DoS, when treated like IC obstacles, make its challenge system more interesting to me than DoF and DoM.

As Arthour states above, if the idea is that our Overlord is the Supreme Duelist, the additional obstacles and maneuverings support that effort.

In short, allowing a natural tendency of inflation in regards to intercession-free Baronial Challenge grants is a dangerous precedent to set. Despite Vanion having been given one of these last Halloween (which, really, had nothing to do with my activity or awareness of the October event; I was merely lucky in the draw), I'd rather see no Baronial Challenge grants that disallow intercession.

I do, however, support the tradition of WLT winners getting an test-free shot at the Overlord. I also commend the change to Madness prizes that allow for the winner of the tournament to receive an intercession/test free grant. I do not think that the runners-up should be given grants that disallow intercessions, however. The more of those that exist, IMO, the more it dilutes the value of the challenge system and the rank of Overlord.

Addendum: Due to the oftentimes antagonistic role that my characters play, I don't frequently get to enjoy the benefits of being an Overlord surrounded by mostly loyal barons. I thought that that was worth mentioning. My climbs to the top, having to maneuver through a well supported Overlord with long-time loyal Barons, however, are my most memorable dueling accomplishments ... precisely because of the obstacles and politics imposed. Keep them, please.

[Teagan]

Addendum: Due to the oftentimes antagonistic role that my characters play, I don't frequently get to enjoy the benefits of being an Overlord surrounded by mostly loyal barons. I thought that that was worth mentioning. My climbs to the top, having to maneuver through a well supported Overlord with long-time loyal Barons, however, are my most memorable dueling accomplishments ... precisely because of the obstacles and politics imposed. Keep them, please.

I will say that in the instance this is referring to, the said character benefited from one of the intercession free baronial challenges.

[Rakeesh]

Addendum: Due to the oftentimes antagonistic role that my characters play, I don't frequently get to enjoy the benefits of being an Overlord surrounded by mostly loyal barons. I thought that that was worth mentioning. My climbs to the top, having to maneuver through a well supported Overlord with long-time loyal Barons, however, are my most memorable dueling accomplishments ... precisely because of the obstacles and politics imposed. Keep them, please.

I will say that in the instance this is referring to, the said character benefited from one of the intercession free baronial challenges.

I was actually (mostly) referring to Rakeesh vs Candy early in 2013. Like I said, I did benefit from one of these (as Vanion vs Matt), but it was quite a surprise to me that I even received it!

[Harris]

None of the ideas stated above have gone anywhere.

Because of the politics involved in the game, there has to be a system of checks and balances to keep certain elements from being abused. Case in point, the Overlord is forced to face the WLT winner and is not allowed to test. That's in place to make certain that at the very least, once per cycle, the Overlord is held accountable and has to bring his or her blade to bear and actually defend the title without the benefit of a test.

With the idea of a "Wall of Loyals" now in place in the game, essentially blocking any and all challenges to the Overlord, the potential for stagnation is high. With 7 Loyals in place at any given time, and an Overlord willing to step in regularly, any sort of progress or turnover can grind to an extreme halt. There are virtually no "politics" in the game when an Overlord has all Loyal Barons. In fact, the sport is easily at its most engaging and vibrant when the opposite is true. The intercession free Baronial challenges act as a check, allowing for an opportunity to potentially put a dent in a Loyal wall. Not unlike what Vanion did with his Halloween grant.

The numbers don't lie. There were 4 intercession free challenges in all of 2013. As of now there have been 4, with 2 more potentially on the horizon before the year ends with the Summer and Winter WLTs, bringing the anticipated total to 6. I can't really say I see these challenges ruining the sport. Again, the idea is to step back and analyze the sport as a whole, rather than taking a myopic view of how any person feels individually during their reign and the specific circumstances therein.

[Kalamere]

The history I could dig up on this is actually kind of interesting. I can only go back 10 years, since that's what we have on the site, which excludes the first half of DoS history.. but that's pretty well outside of my control. Anyway, what I find interesting is that this sorta goes back and forth through time.

In 2004 and 2005, the standard WLT prize was (a) An intercession free shot at the OL and (b) A Baron challenge that didn't require peer wins, but was subject to intercession. Unless a baron ring was available, then it was just the OL challange and any available rings.

This looks to have changed in June of 2006 where the stated prizes were the OL challenge as usual and an intercession free challenge to a baron. (which went to Rena as the 3rd place winner after Harris declined it). The August and December tournies of '06 appear to have gone the same way.

In February of 2007 it was switched back to a standard baron challenge that could once again be interceded on. The comment in the tournament announcement almost makes it sound like there was some discussion about this that resulted in the change, but I wasn't able to find anything on the DoS OOC board or in the caller's forum. This is what was written:

"***This will be a double-elimination tournament!!!*** The only guaranteed prize as of this moment is the Overlord's title shot, which is Test-free. There will be one other prize....exactly what it will be is currently pending on the results of Maria Graziano's challenge with the Baronial Council's champion. Should the champion be victorious, the vacant Barony of Battlefield Park will be a prize in the tournament for the first time in over three years. Should the Warlady be victorious, a title shot against the Baron or Baroness of your choice will be a prize. As was found out last cycle, this shot is *not* free of Intercessions by automatic right, so in case that were to happen again, be forewarned.

emphasis mine.

What was found out the previous cycle though, I have no idea.

The Baron challenge would stay like this, subject to intercession, through 2008.

In 2009 the baron challenge prize was eliminated entirely. This could be due to low numbers at the time, but also because peer wins were eliminated. There would be no point in awarding a baron challenge that could be interceded on, since all warlords could do that at a whim anyway.

In the Summer of 2010 we created the SoA rules, which then made a baron challenge worth putting back in as a prize, so...

In Sept. of 2010 the baron challenge was put back in. It's hard to tell from the text what the intercession status on it was. I *think* it was subject to intercession but did not require SoA or wipe clean your accumulated SoA.

About a year later, in August of 2011, the baron challenge looks to have switched back to being intercession free. That's pretty much the way it's been since then as far as I can tell.

Given that, I think it's more than fair to say G didn't pull this out on a whim. We just don't always see it on the prize list because, as mentioned with tradition, when a baron ring is vacant and up as a prize, the baron challenge is always left out. 3 of the 4 most recent WLTs had rings in them, so the baron challenge wouldn't have been visible.

So... well... that's that.

I wish I knew what happened in 2007, but for better or worse, intercession free baron challenges seem to be the new way of things. In truth, I mind that less than I mind seeing the gifts / grants / holiday treat challenge rights come out as intercession free. A warlord doing well in a tourney is one thing. A low rank managing to be in the right place at the right time is quite another.

[Morgan le Fay]

Because of the politics involved in the game, there has to be a system of checks and balances to keep certain elements from being abused.

If there's abuse going on (which I argue there is not), then the answer to that is to revisit the rules in place, not encourage the powers that be to circumvent the rules already in place, or as Arthour put it, blatantly ignore the Lore of the sport.

Having a (mostly) loyal council isn't any different from a renegade council. Most warlords need 10 SOA to challenge a baron, loyal or renegade. Or be lucky enough to get the prize when it is offered in a WLT. The only thing different from a warlord challenging a loyal is that they might have to face the Overlord first. That's it.

Yes, I brought this up while I am still Overlord and I acknowledge that some of you will think my argument is weaker for it. I was going to wait until I was no longer OL to bring it up, but yet again, another intercession free challenge is being offered up as a prize and in my mind, five in as many months is too many, whether I am OL or not.

Checks and balances here would be to say that there should be no more baronial grants given out until the four that have already been given are spread out over the year. In other words, since five SOA-free and intercession-free grants have been/will be given out in the first five months of the year, another one shouldn't happen until fourth quarter of this year.

Four test-free OL grants and four intercession-free baron grants given per year is fair, provided they are handed out as WLT prizes. Any more? They should be subject to the same rules as any other SOA-based challenged given by a warlord.

If the community thinks SOA is too onerous for a warlord to challenge an OL or baron, and there's not enough challenges going on to keep DOS interesting for them, then we revisit *that* rule, not turn our heads away from the rules already in place that state an overlord should be able to intercede on behalf of his/her loyal barons.

If G wants to add an incentive to get people to join tourneys and events, cool. I'm asking that we don't flood the challenge grants all in the first five months of the year *and* that we don't make them all intercession free. Since five have ALREADY been/will be intercession free, checks and balances say that the rest SHOULDN'T be intercession free for the rest of the year.

That's balance. What's going on right now is not balance by any means.

[Kalamere]

A little bit more on the 2007 rule reversal mentioned in the previous post.

Sartan had taken 2nd place in the WLT held December of '06. As a prize for that tournament, Xeno had announced it would be an intercession free baron challenge. Despite that, Chris G. (DoS Supervisor at the time) said that the announcement from Xeno was a mistake and that intercession WAS on the table. With that in play, Cory (Overlord at the time) stepped in against Sartan's challenge for Old Market and won, leaving loyal Baroness Anjolie Quinn as the holder of the ring.

Rena oversaw the match.

Reference: Old Market Challenge Results

I'd be curious to know why Chris stepped in and ruled Xeno's prize announcement a mistake. If there's a rules clause we're missing (or has been otherwise removed) or if this was just upholding the tradition noted in the '04-'05 years (and potentially prior).

[Rakeesh]

Harris makes a good point, though I don't completely agree. Ultimately, whether Baronial Challenge grants are intercession free or not, the challenge system for DoS, and its politics, are only as interesting as the play generated by using them as a tool. I think that all Loyal Barons leaves probably the least interesting scenario overall, with all Renegade Barons being the next least interesting scenario. But, that's a really relative statement. Unless some characters stir the pot with their titles, causing other characters to play their POV in response (creating conflict), no challenge system is particularly interesting, IMO.

I like SOA, and I like intercessions. I think that the way to create a more dynamic political situation and encourage more challenges is through roleplay, and not rule changes.

I'd still prefer Baronial Challenge grants to not be intercession-free, or for the number of that specific type of grant to be limited and not common. I don't think that SOA and intercessions are the core issue with stagnation when it occurs. It's all about roleplay.